Gun Weight - Important

[scarface09]

This idea will benefit and make the game way more realistic to real life. When your holding a specific gun say HK MP5 which is pretty light, you can move around and run faster and have better reflexes, agility etc. If you had for example, a Barret or M79 which are heavier guns, you should move around slower and run way slower which increases the realism of the game. If you where holding a pistol you would be able to run around faster, but when you switch back to your barret you run slower because of how heavy the gun is. The game would benefit heaps because it makes it way better because you could see someone with a barret running at full speed at someone which makes it look kinda dodgy and unrealistic.

[STM1993]

Err... no please. I don't want Soldat to be another Counter-Strike. In addition, it'd make Soldat slower instead of remaining fast-paced.

F11.

[UnknownSniper]

If you add this, you must also add limit to weapon ammo, no running while reloading, no moving at all if reloading LAW, take out jetpack, and all kinds of other things.
No point in trying to make it realistic any further.

[~Niko~]

play GTA instead

[Dairy]

Why you should run faster when you barrett is on your back and pistol in hands ? You've got the same weight on your soldier.

Not really important. Your agility depends on your skill in soldat. That's the way it should stay.

F11

[Xxypher]

F12, I always thought that holding a mega-kill-yo-ass weapon should slow you down, seeing as it is like, what? Fifty pounds? Twleve stones?

Also, maybe making it to you can set the weight in the ini settings?

[miketh2005]

F12, I always thought that holding a mega-kill-yo-ass weapon should slow you down, seeing as it is like, what? Fifty pounds? Twleve stones?

Also, maybe making it to you can set the weight in the ini settings?

Agreed, F12

[lynx_fxghta]

F12!! Great topic and idea to improve realisticness of the game. How can ya be running at the same speed with a small gun like HK and still be running at even faster pace with a barret.

F12, I always thought that holding a mega-kill-yo-ass weapon should slow you down, seeing as it is like, what? Fifty pounds? Twleve stones?

Also, maybe making it to you can set the weight in the ini settings?

Agreed! Set weights for all the weapons!!

[ElSpec774]

This will add more frustration to the weapon balance and offer nothing exciting to gameplay.

Soldat is nothing near realistic, stop making suggestions trying to.

[chutem]

Suggested before. F11. Silly idea. Useless. Soldat isn't meant to be realistic. Go play R/S.

[Decaying Soldat]

The minigun would be a piece of crap. Yes, super heavy: with batteries, ammo and the gun itself, the whole weight will cause the player unable to move, now THAT's realistic.

Seriously f11.

[KYnetiK]

Whats so heinous about having realistic weapons in a realistic mode?

The weights dont have to be perfectly true to life, they just have to be relatively proportionate to the other weapons.

The slow down effect wont limit your players max speed, it only makes it take a few more 'steps' to reach it. ie each 'jump' would add slightly less velocity as weapons get heavier.

If your agility skills are up to scratch, this shouldnt really matter unless you get really caught off guard.

Sure it may have some problems, but Im not willing to bag the crap out of the idea without it having been tested or experimented with.

F1x.

[STM1993]

Do you know that Soldat would be terrible if we followed as realistic as possible? Also, Soldat's made to be pretty simple for a game. You might as well play other games if that's the case.


Look at the list of things that could be made realistic:

1. You can't carry an actual minigun (weight of gun itself is 15kg) with all the ammunition, battery to make the gun fire etc, let alone fire it, which has a peak estimated recoil of 110kg (240lbs). Even the XM214 is no exception, which fires up to 10,000 rounds per minute from its 6 barrels, which is 2.78 rounds per tick, imagine how quickly your bullet goes to waste. 100 bullets only last 35.97 ticks, which is around 0.6 seconds. Each round is a 5.56mm NATO. If you're thinking about Hollywood in Predator, the actor for "Blain" was wearing lots of protective equipment + a small battery hidden in his pants and the minigun fired blanks.

2. The Steyr Aug fires 650 rounds per minute, which is 10.83 rounds per second, 5.53 ticks to fire 1 bullet (not 7). It uses 5.56mm NATO rounds with an effective range of 450-500 meters and weighs 3.8kg unloaded.

Before Soldat used the Steyr Aug, it used to be a Colt M4A1 which fires 5.56mm NATO rounds with a maximum effective range of up to 360 meters, weighing 2.52kg without magazine and 3kg with magazine and loaded with 30 rounds. It has a rate of fire of 700-950 rounds per minute, so the time to fire 1 bullet is between 5.14 and 3.79 ticks.

3. The AK-74 fires at 600-650 rounds per minute as well, so theoretically the AK should fire either as fast as the Aug, or exactly 6 ticks to fire one bullet which is as fast as Soldat's MP5. It uses 5.45x39mm rounds, an effective range of 500 meters, standard 30 rounds per clip and weighs 3.3kg unloaded and 3.6kg loaded.

4. The HK MP5 has a rate of fire of 800 rounds per minute, so it takes 4.5 ticks to fire 1 bullet. Each round is a 9x19mm Parabellum or .40S&W or 10mm auto.

5. The FN Minimi has a few models, but the one seen in Soldat is probably either the Standard model or the Para model. It is fed by either belt or magazine, has a weight of 7.1kg and fires at a rate of 750-1000 rounds per minute, so it takes between 4.8 to 3.6 ticks to fire 1 bullet. The FN Minimi uses 5.56x45mm NATO rounds.

6. The Barrett M82A1 is an anti-tank sniper rifle, using a caliber of .50BMG (12.7x99mm), and its operation is short recoil and it is semi-automatic. It weighs 12.9kg empty, has a maximum effective range of up to 1800 meters and has an expected accuracy of 1.5-2.0 MOA or better. Semi-automatic dude, that means the Barrett should fire faster than it really is in Soldat!

7. The Ruger 77 is a bolt-action rimfire hunting rifle, using bullets of .22 Long Rifle or .22 WMR or .22 Hornet. It uses a removable rotary magazine that can hold (according the the type of bullets it holds stated above) 10+1, 9+1 and 6+1 rounds respectively. The Ruger has no sights ; it's intended to be used with a scope.

8. The Franchi Spas-12 is a shotgun, which can be fired either by pumping or is gas-operated (semi-automatic) selectively. It uses 12 gauge rounds, weighs 4.4kg and it would typically hold 8+1 rounds. Rate of fire is 4 rounds per second if fired semi-automatically. Soldat's is obviously manually pumped rather than semi-automatic.

9. The Desert Eagle can chamber .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .440 Cor-bon or .50AE rounds. It can hold 9 (.357), 8 (.41 and .44) or 7 (.440 and .50) rounds in one magazine. It weighs 1715 grams when empty. Soldat definitely uses the .50AE rounds.

10. I've no idea what pistol is the USSOCOM, but it is definitely a pistol adopted by the US SOCOM's Offensive Handgun Weapon System program and the "USSOCOM" is not its real name. If I'm not wrong, it is a HK Mk.23 mod.0, and if that's the case, it is a double-action pistol and fires .45ACP rounds and has a magazine capacity of 12 rounds. If you're looking for the older Soldat's Colt 1911, it fires the same rounds but is single-action and holds 7 rounds.

11. Which soldier actually brings a freaking chainsaw into a battlefield to saw people to death?

12. The M72 LAW is a Light Anti-Tank Weapon. There are also a few variations of the LAW. http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl12-e.htm

13. The M79 is a single-shot grenade launcher, using 40mm (40x46) grenade rounds, weighs 2.72kg unloaded and has an effective range of up to 150 meters (point target) and up to 350 meters (area target).

14. There are no such thing as jet boots, even if there are, let alone having every soldier being issued with jet boots.



Anyway, weapon weight really isn't a good idea. It kills the simplicity of Soldat, and makes some guns weaker than it really needs to be and causes major balancing issues.

[Platehead]

STM1993, was that really necessary?
F11, ruins the fast paced nature of soldat which is a major part of the game

[kamikaze_warrior]

F12, excites and brings life to the game-play which makes it more real. The gun weight is important to soldat because people can't be running at full pace with a massive gun. Say you wer holding a Law and you where running around faster than a person with Desert Eagles...makes the game look weird. imo. F12 all the way!

[Chariot]

The gun weight is important to soldat

No it isn't. If it was, Soldat wouldn't have lasted the 6+ years that it has. Go play Counter Strike if you want realism. If you hadn't noticed, Soldat is a 2D shooter where people fly around with jets on their boots and accurately shoot a Barrett while standing or hell, even flying.

[Ziem]

1. It was suggested before.. use search and read the comments.
2. Soldat isn't meant to be realistic.

[Gotfryd]

Let us look on this sentence, which carries a hidden truth :

Go play R/S.

I think this idea can work nice in realistic mode only. Look at the recoil: it is a "realistic feature", it makes a big difference, and causes some balancing issues just like this gun weight would do. And it is only in realistic.
So what do you think about implementing it only in realistic mode? I'm asking realistic players.

PS I am a realistic player and I like this idea

[STM1993]

I played with some R/S players. Though I didn't ask them directly, I could see that they liked the way R/S is already except for the weapons balance of some weapons which I'm trying to balance by myself and see if it works.

[Dairy]

I'm realistic player. I'm not playing so much lately but still.

Think about Ruger-77. It's a light weapon and it's already really powerful.

Still the same - No.

[Decaying Soldat]

To elaborate dairy's example: The chainsaw and the minigun are already hard to use, why make them even clumsier to handle?

[STM1993]

Recently played in realistic games.



Actually, the realistic balance is relatively balanced, but has a few unbalances in a few weapons, I'm discussing it somewhere else.

The Chainsaw is useless there. Don't have to make it worse.

The Minigun actually has potential but is already considered weak even if I reduced its recoil. Adding weights make it worse.

The Barrett's only reasons to be used over the Ruger in realistic is mainly due to its long range and lack of recoil. But other than that, Barrett is obsolete compared to Ruger. Adding weights will make it worse.

Contrary to popular belief, the Ruger's actually quite balanced (though can be tweaked a bit). It's pretty hard to control and very slow, and once you miss you die. But it makes up for high bullet speed and high damage. Ruger is actually not that popular. We don't have to make the Ruger more powerful, it's powerful enough. Weights only give the Ruger a big advantage. If anything, it's a minor nerf.

[Espadon]

Soldat is an Arena game. Think of Soldat as Quake and not CS. Go play a Tom Clancy game if you want realistic.

Please also note how pretty much all the vets here vote nay while the newcomers are all like 'yey.'

F11 and go write your own game.

[Gotfryd]

The Chainsaw is useless there. Don't have to make it worse.

Did you play trenchwar? Although it may seem ridiculous, chainsaw is useful there! It can be used to retake bunker, I've done it myself, and I've seen many people do it successfully!

The Minigun actually has potential but is already considered weak even if I reduced its recoil. Adding weights make it worse.

I don't understand one thing. Why do you think about this weight feature as a way to make every weapon worse? For example, the minigun. I agree that it is weak. I agree that nerfing it would make it totally useless.
Why is it weak now? Because of recoil, self bink, inaccuracy and start up time. Why it has so much recoil, why is it so inaccurate? because other way it would be too powerful! (real-life minigun compared to all other real-life weapons from soldat would own them all, probably).
Imagine now that we add the minigun a significant weight, so Soldat carrying a minigun would be slow, but we also make minigun more accurate, less self-binked etc. Then it wouldn't be too powerful, since moving fast, jumping, flying and bunnyhopping are very important in soldat, and guy with minigun would be rather easy to hit, an you can escape him also. But when he starts firing, he is really effective. So, minigun would be then useful for holding some place in ctf, or for covering your teammates, but not really for close combat. Like the Barrett in trenchwars (and regular realistic ctf - it is useful for sniping, and not for rushing, since for rushing ruger is way better, as you said)

PS

Please also note how pretty much all the vets here vote nay while the newcomers are all like 'yey.'

If you mean me, since I have written only 35 posts by now, I must say that I'm playing Soldat since version 1.1.5.

[Decaying Soldat]

I'm not gonna quote, but I'm refering to Gotfryd's last post.

Firstly, I agree with you that the chainsaw is useful in trench war, it easily cleans any small bunker with one sweep. But I think STM is refering to the general realistic mode games. I have no idea what that is coz I seldom play realistic games, but I'm sure trench war is only a very small part of Soldat.

Secondly, you are also correct on this, too. Re-balancing the weapons will solve the problem, but not much people want re-balancing. Just ask the beta testers.

So, that's still a no for me.

 

[Espadon]

The Chainsaw is useless there. Don't have to make it worse.

Did you play trenchwar? Although it may seem ridiculous, chainsaw is useful there! It can be used to retake bunker, I've done it myself, and I've seen many people do it successfully!

TW is not R/RS. TW is a linear format obviously benefitting chainsaw while R/RS is not. There's too many possible open vectors in R/RS that using a melee-range weapon means to give yourself a massive handicap. Also, in TW, there are many bunkers, facilitating surprise chainsaw rushes. Most R/RS maps have very few areas that are cramped enough that you can get the jump on someone with the saw.

The Minigun actually has potential but is already considered weak even if I reduced its recoil. Adding weights make it worse.

I don't understand one thing. Why do you think about this weight feature as a way to make every weapon worse? For example, the minigun. I agree that it is weak. I agree that nerfing it would make it totally useless.
Why is it weak now? Because of recoil, self bink, inaccuracy and start up time. Why it has so much recoil, why is it so inaccurate? because other way it would be too powerful! (real-life minigun compared to all other real-life weapons from soldat would own them all, probably).
Imagine now that we add the minigun a significant weight, so Soldat carrying a minigun would be slow, but we also make minigun more accurate, less self-binked etc. Then it wouldn't be too powerful, since moving fast, jumping, flying and bunnyhopping are very important in soldat, and guy with minigun would be rather easy to hit, an you can escape him also. But when he starts firing, he is really effective. So, minigun would be then useful for holding some place in ctf, or for covering your teammates, but not really for close combat. Like the Barrett in trenchwars (and regular realistic ctf - it is useful for sniping, and not for rushing, since for rushing ruger is way better, as you said)

You forgot one thing though. Even if it is really useful, the lag due to the creation of the bullet entities and calculations for arc, etc., is going to make everyone want to votekick the minigun user. One more time: Realistic Soldat is not real life. Stop being a TW boohoo; there are a LOT more people who don't play Tilting War [lol so ironic that I'm saying this, eh]. Besides, in TW, people already lame and whine about spray. Rugerspray, Rettspray, AK/AUG sprays, Minispray, Socomspray, random 'lucker' LAW shots. We really don't NEED the mini as a 'total pwnage' weapon. There are more than enough autos to fulfill all the niches.

Please also note how pretty much all the vets here vote nay while the newcomers are all like 'yey.'

If you mean me, since I have written only 35 posts by now, I must say that I'm playing Soldat since version 1.1.5.

Can't say I'm a newcomer to Soldat when I first registered either. Your attitude will change after a while on the forums.

[-Major-]

no running while reloading, no moving at all if reloading LAW

unless female soldats are added

[tehsnipah]

I would personally say f12 on ONLY realastic mode. Nothing else.

[Gotfryd]

TW is not R/RS. TW is a linear format obviously benefitting chainsaw while R/RS is not. (...)

I agree that TW does not reflect all aspects of R/RS Soldat. That was an example, but... hmm... perhaps you're right.

You forgot one thing though. Even if it is really useful, the lag due to the creation of the bullet entities and calculations for arc, etc., is going to make everyone want to votekick the minigun user.

If I undestand this problem correctly, maybe I have an idea how to solve it: we can replace half of the bullets with faked ones. That is, minigun would fire two times less bullets, while each bullet would look like two bullets, has a sound of two bullets, and damage of two bullets. Since it fires rounds very fast it shouldn't affect gameplay. I've made something like this and attached it to this post, please take a look.
[EDIT] I made changes only in realistic mode [/EDIT]
Unfortunately rendering bullet trais does not work perfectly with this (you can disable it in config), but i'm sure it could be fixed. What do you think about it?

There are more than enough autos to fulfill all the niches.

You're right. That's why I thought it would be interesting if minigun was different and not just "another auto, but with start up time and more ammo".

[Espadon]

You forgot one thing though. Even if it is really useful, the lag due to the creation of the bullet entities and calculations for arc, etc., is going to make everyone want to votekick the minigun user.

If I undestand this problem correctly, maybe I have an idea how to solve it: we can replace half of the bullets with faked ones. That is, minigun would fire two times less bullets, while each bullet would look like two bullets, has a sound of two bullets, and damage of two bullets. Since it fires rounds very fast it shouldn't affect gameplay. I've made something like this and attached it to this post, please take a look. Unfortunately rendering bullet trais does not work perfectly with this (you can disable it in config), but i'm sure it could be fixed. What do you think about it?

That technique has been used for other purposes before, but it's just not proper for official Soldat. How are you going to contend with the shell eject? The effect it creates is even more unrealistic than not having 'weight.'

There are more than enough autos to fulfill all the niches.

You're right. That's why I thought it would be interesting if minigun was different and not just "another auto, but with start up time and more ammo".

It's already 'different,' except it's not different in the way you think it is. It's different because it is the joke gun. It's always been the joke gun in Soldat, so anything else is just ... wrong.

[Gotfryd]

That technique has been used for other purposes before, but it's just not proper for official Soldat. How are you going to contend with the shell eject? The effect it creates is even more unrealistic than not having 'weight.'

I agree that it doesn't look professional..
I suppose that you are against changing minigun stats so it would have fireinterval 6, like MP5 (and not adding any faked bullets)?

I've just realized: I didn't write in previous post that in attached example stats i made changes only in realistic mode. I hope that you'd noticed that

[Bonecrusher]

not needed

F11

[Espadon]

That technique has been used for other purposes before, but it's just not proper for official Soldat. How are you going to contend with the shell eject? The effect it creates is even more unrealistic than not having 'weight.'

I agree that it doesn't look professional..
I suppose that you are against changing minigun stats so it would have fireinterval 6, like MP5 (and not adding any faked bullets)?

In any case, the proposed remedies to that end up making the minigun less minigun-like/realistic/whatever you want to call it than it is currently. Few people choose the minigun anyways purely because of that long reload.

[wolfbr]

F12 in realistic mode, not in normal mode

[Gotfryd]

Few people choose the minigun anyways purely because of that long reload.

Personally I would use minigun in CTF/INF/other teamplay if it were more accurate and had less recoil, regardless of long reload. I often throw out my secondary and pick up a primary, if any lies nearby, so when I'd ran out of minigun's ammo I'd throw it away and use that picked up weapon (actually i often do that with M79). But, of course, this is only my way of doing things.

[STM1993]

Even though weapons discussion should be done in weapons balance, I'd just say something about the minigun:

• In normal, its damage is terrible, though the bink is controllable until it is nearly out of ammo.
• In Realistic, its damage potential is actually good, but it has terrible RECOIL.
• For both, the reload is terribly long.
• For both, they have a startup time. In normal, its terribly long. In realistic, the startup time is considered relatively okay, the main problem is still recoil and you die real fast.
• For both, the minigun can cause major lag, and the bullet register isn't good under laggy conditions.
• You CANNOT throw nades while shooting a minigun (you have to stop to throw), and you CANNOT unprone while firing by pressing the prone button ; you have to turn and face the other direction which wastes lots of ammo or stop firing to unprone
• Some people hate the self-boosting ability of the minigun which pushes you backwards.
• Chances are, you're dead by the time you actually run out of ammo, or you get killed during reload, and it can be troublesome to pick up weapons after throwing away the minigun.

[Gotfryd]

I agree with every point, STM.
I think that in realistic it should be significantly more accurate and have significantly less recoil when crouched/proned. Then it would be reasonable. Look at MP5 - there is a big difference in accuracy and overall shooting experience when proned or crouched, actually when proned it can even do something at long distances

[Espadon]

That's something that should be tweaked in the WM... which... uh, isn't 1.5 MG buffed?

[Nubism]

f11, useless

[homerofgods]

can it be scripted?

[-Major-]

hmm... it might be possible to script... doesn't avarax rpg mod change the speed of the soldats? if so it should very well be possible to code.

[DorkeyDear]

F11

[Noobinabox]

F11...

But, if it did happen, lmao to the guy who decided to lug around 2 miniguns.

[chutem]

hmm... it might be possible to script... doesn't avarax rpg mod change the speed of the soldats? if so it should very well be possible to code.

The speed adding and subtracting used is pretty much a workaround, and shouldn't be used in any official version.

[muzikman]

I don't like this idea.  I mean consider the mnigun- You wouldn't be able to hold and fire in real life anyway!

[Gotfryd]

I don't like this idea.  I mean consider the mnigun- You wouldn't be able to hold and fire in real life anyway!

I do not say that it should have properties exactly like in real life. That would obviously be stupid (and weapons would be totally unbalanced). I only believe that real-life machanics work fine and it's a good idea to follow them, since they give natural solutions to some probems, as I've written here.

[ashxu]

The minigun would be a piece of crap. Yes, super heavy: with batteries, ammo and the gun itself, the whole weight will cause the player unable to move, now THAT's realistic.

Seriously f11.

Lol, and you havn't played Team Fortress 2... The Heavy class (with Heavy Machine Gun) Moves alot slower then the other classes, in return he has more armor.

[croat1gamer]

*facepalm*
when will you guys realize that soldat isnt the next cs/ut/tf/bf/whatever
f11, dont even to try to argue with me

[Lt. Sprizz]

I'm gonna have to add an F11 here. Soldat really is about fast-paced gameplay, and adding an element like this would not only slow down the gameplay, but probably add a lot of new glitches as well.

[Bjarne Betjent]

We also do have jet boots. I think something else should be changed to benefits for the realism before adding different weight to the weapons.

f11

[Jeffy]

This actually is a good idea, although many people would dislike it as well. It would take away that arcade style of the game. Although, it could work out of this only worked for a certain type of gameplay. Example, this factor would only take effect if you were playing a match with the realistic mode switched on. Good idea, but there would have to be an option to set this realism on or off.

[TD]

No, I think not. Gun weight could only add more problems, and my guess is that if it were implemented the majority of the people here for it would find a lot more to complain about.

Face it, Soldat just isn't meant to be super-realistic.

[Gotfryd]

If I ever learn to script (maybe during holidays?), I'll make a script with all my favourite suggestions (gun weight, limited ammo etc.) and see how it works, and I'll ask other people what they think about it (I suppose that most of them would find it not as horrible as they imagined )

[scarface09]

thank you gotfryd...they havn't even experienced playing with this feature judging it by how it sounds.

[scarface09]

Poll added...vote for the verdict.

[miketh2005]

look at my procedure suggestions article, this can be possible already but spawning bullets on the player like in hexer, but with another procedure it wont look messey and noobs wont think your hacking, I F12ed, but i wouldn't like the weapon weight for ALL weapons, like people said it could cause bugs, effect the gameplay etc. but i think it really should be added to minigun, it would be AWESOME and there will finally be 15 weapons again.

[scarface09]

agreed! most weapons should be modified with a weight BUT slightly just to make that difference if you know what i mean.