Ruger Discussion

[STM1993]

If...

The MP5 is supposed to be the most simple and fastest auto which is strongest at close range, the AK is supposed to be the all-rounder of ALL GUNS (but the slowest-firing and highest damage of all autos), the Minimi is a machine gun with super DPS and power and lots of ammo but not very portable and terrible reload, the Minigun is a support-weapon for ANY RANGE mainly to bink and push back enemies...

DEs are supposedly the versatile Anti-Autos and can rush (yet it is strangely unpopular other than being difficult to use), the Spas supposedly the super close-ranged GUN/weapon, the M79 is the explosive grenade launcher (Cannon), the Barrett is the super slow but 1-hit and super long ranged sniper, the Socom is the backup pistol, the Knife is the short-ranged throwing 1-hit weapon, the Chainsaw is the melee weapon, the LAW is the artillery (barrett + M79 hybrid)...

Then what's the Steyr Aug and Ruger?



Why is it that the Aug is almost as strong as the MP5 in the MP5's strongest areas (it can kill 2 people in one clip easily, but MP5 can't do that) and also have its own strong points against all other weapons? It's accurate, it's fast-firing, it has high bullet speed, it has long range, it has a quick reload, it is easy to use and reliable, it has strong bullet push, it has good DPS and can take both groups and enemies and single enemies? Something isn't right with the Steyr Aug if it is SO versatile and practically without a weakness except 1-hit kills which is every weapon's weakness. It is undoubtedly OVERPOWERED!

I seriously believe the Aug needs movementacc 3 instead of 2, and greatly increased self-bink to -35. Perhaps even more nerfs if necessary... because we're not at the stage where we buff every single OTHER weapon to nerf another.



Ruger's purpose and stats are pretty confused. Everyone agrees that it should be a defensive weapon that is also incredibly good for hunting down single opponents. For this to be possible, the Ruger has to have strong firepower, long range, high bullet speed. To balance it out, it needs to have low ammo (it will stay as 4 ammo). But what people argue about every single stat of the Ruger (except ammo and bullet speed).

As someone pointed it out, the damage is a big problem. 3 hits is pretty weak, yet 2 hits makes it extremely powerful. If the Ruger loses its 2-hit kill ability, then the Ruger is useless and can't be a good hunting weapon and loses its use for long range. But if it is ALWAYS 2-hits, then it is too powerful - anyone with good aim can just kill you and masters are just going to own everyone. Then fireinterval comes in which also determines the damage (in terms of DPS). Then the ammo comes in, to determine how much damage it can do before it needs to reload. Since ammo is going to be kept at 4 which is VERY balanced, it's gonna be the reload to determine how long it takes to recover. Then bink comes in. Some argue that bink isn't helpful to fight against a Ruger and makes it lose its long-ranged capability while giving it away to the autos' advantage and this should take place only for 1-hitters and Ruger isn't a 1-hitter, while others believe that there should be bink because the Ruger shouldn't be used for offensive rushing and removing bink is gonna make it more capable of rushing. Then there's movementacc. Movementacc 3 doesn't affect Ruger much in terms of accuracy, but it is enough to force a Ruger user to slow down before shooting and doesn't allow the Ruger to be like DEs - can't really be used to rush. Then there's bullet speed. That would determine the weapon's range - but currently 330 is okay. For those who believe that the Ruger is a hybrid of Barrett, there is really a big difference between a slow 1-hitter with superior range compared to a much faster 2-3 hitter with less range capabilities.



I believe that since the Ruger is a hunting weapon, it deserves to have high damage, so it can kill in 2-hits even at long range, but it must NOT always be 2-hits. It should be slower in one way or another (note that fireinterval actually affects reload as well). If it has high damage, it needs to be slower - so it might need to shoot slightly slower. Ruger's reload is relatively quick, so it might need a slight increase - but since the fireinterval is increased, the reload stat could remain the same. As for bink, I believe it should not have any bink. A good rushing weapon has speed and ammo/reload, and removing its speed and ammo/reload leaves it unable to rush well, preserving the Ruger's role as a defensive weapon but also excellent against single opponents. Movementacc should remain the same - but if needs change, it should be between 3-5. Bullet speed doesn't require a change, but if this "range" issue is really a problem and if the damage can't be tweaked properly by the stat alone, then the bullet speed must be increased. In other words, the Ruger should be a slow but powerful weapon - but in this manner it is still nothing close to a Barrett - but not too slow or else it is unable to defend itself against a single rusher (it should be able to handle perfectly against a single opponent). This is to fulfill the purpose of a Ruger to be a non-rushing, defensive, truly long-ranged weapon which works best with a support - best against single opponents and injured opponents, poor against groups if without support.

Speed 330 = Damage 248-250
Suggested Speed (if changed) 340-400 = Damage between 240 - 206 (depending on speed - use speed x damage to calculate)

Fireinterval = 40-45
Ammo = 4
Reload = 100-110
Bink = 0
Movementacc = 3-5

Note: These values are estimated and are for you play around with - you do not need to take the extreme values.

[Extacide]

Heres the problem with no bink. I agree, the steyr is extremely versatile and can handle its self in many situations mainly due to it's nature, but ruger should NOT have any advantages (i.e. no bink) against it. This is why:

Ruger is long range and at the beginning of any fight, has the advantage by out ranging half of the guns. Played properly, the m79, HK, Spas, and desert eagles are almost completely eliminated from the fight (On the assumption that skill is equal between both sides). This doesn't assume that they don't stand a chance, more or less they are always fighting an up hill battle trying to beat a weapon that has a total advantage over them. With grenades, the ruger can actually (and unfortunately) face these same guns toe to toe close distance as well, where these guns should be dominating.

The only viable counter to the range advantage is spray, and keeping the opposition from maintaining that advantage. If ruger doesn't get binked, then the ONLY gun that will actually counter it, is barrett. EVERY other gun will be on par or at a disadvantage; and the barrett is VERY easy to counter given its vulnerability to bink from spray. The steyr will be on par because the ruger in theory out dps's the steyr from a range (JUST barely if the ruger doesn't 2 shot, which from screen distance is pretty rare). The AK74 is on par and if the ruger doesn't 2 shot kill, they will both kill each other or come extremely close. The Minimi out dps's the ruger, but is rather hard to maintain a proper bead from long distance which the ruger can easily take advantage of. The connection between the two is mixed in my opinion, too mixed to really create a difference, although it leans towards ruger being superior in the end with no bink.

With no viable counters with an actual advantage (barrett being the only gun with a statistical advantage), that leaves ruger to dominate the skies. The only way to really beat a ruger from there on is simply by being better and out playing them. The issue in this lies in the fact that other weapons would always have a theoretical disadvantage, increasing the gap in skill required. The ruger HAS to have bink on it, other wise with consistent aim it can utterly dominate in a three man setup, with no other setup that is actually effective against other than 3 rets.

[STM1993]

You forgot one more advantage that all autos and Spas have compared to all other guns - Bullet Push. This is one thing that separates autos and Spas from the rest of the guns that allows users to control their enemies.



Secondly, you were speaking in the view of 1v1 - Ruger is bound to be superior in every way - only defeated by out-ranging or surprising the user with extreme speed. So theoretically the best weapons against the Ruger would be the Aug (Minimi's DPS is not good enough) and the Barrett and also actually, the LAW. 1-hitters can take the Ruger out for good very well, but the only issue is whether you can get him in range.

If it were Ruger vs 2 people, Ruger would already have great difficulty (unless they are injured) since if he misses even a shot, he has to reload, and during this time he's dead - and it's unlikely that it's always 2-hit kill.

Anything more than 2 people, it's a completely different story - the Ruger-user WILL be killed as long as he's being rushed faster than he can escape (and chances are, the Ruger will be slower). Ruger can only target one person at a time - but autos can shoot down an entire mob together (MP5 has a VERY fast reload, Aug has pretty fast reload and can kill 2 people easily in one clip, AK and Minimi has enough ammo to hold out).

You can argue that there are secondary weapons and grenades. But don't forget the rushers also have secondary weapons and grenades - and Primary > Secondary.



You were saying in previous posts that good spraying can actually do a lot of damage even at long range, right?



I can understand how bink helps the balance, but I reckon it is not a good idea. You see, having bink is a double-edged sword. It helps prevent a Ruger from rushing by making it lose its accuracy when shot, which is the very essence of Ruger (aim and accuracy). However, Ruger actually has noticeable disadvantages that can be taken advantage of and the bink system is actually flawed. Ruger is meant to be defensive, and by adding bink, will weaken its ability to defend itself. Low bink doesn't even affect the Ruger (or too little), high bink would make it unable to defend itself especially against autos. This doesn't make sense - the Ruger is supposed to have a very solid defense with its long range - how can it be so easily penetrated by a simple auto rush? I doubt there's a value in bink that is in between too little and too much for the Ruger and as I mentioned earlier, the bink system is quite flawed (Don't believe me? There are actually a number of cases whereby a heavily binked Barrett actually shot 100% straight).



As stated in my previous post, I reckon the best idea is still to simply adjust the DPS of the Ruger, mainly through the speed. This is so that the Ruger retains its strong point at 1v1 where it reigns supreme due to strong firepower - but due to low speed, it is unable to fight against multiple opponents and it can't rush. Movementacc is an additional thing to make the Ruger even less able to rush (it is forced to move less).

Basically a summary:
Reasons why Ruger has a very solid defense:

• Ruger's Damage/DPS is incredibly high!
• Ruger has long range - try retreating while shooting incoming enemies. This works best in open areas.
• Ruger can do pop-shots effectively - basically: hide, shoot, hide
• It's reload, in total is actually 140. But 100 is the actual reload time, 40 is the fireinterval. During the fireinterval delay, the Ruger-user can dodge once without having the fireinterval bar to slow down unlike the actual reload where doing stuff like backflips will slow it down. For this reload thing, it is most noticeable in the Barrett.

Reasons why Ruger only works against single enemies and get killed in mobs:

• Ruger has low ammo - 4 only - and its TOTAL reload (100 + 40) is actually quite long.
• Ruger is slow in firing rate. As a result, it can only target one opponent at a time.
• True that bullets that can pass through an enemy can do damage - but for Ruger the damage is not high enough and how many times do you encounter two or more enemies in one line?

Reasons why Ruger can't/shouldn't rush despite its high DPS:

• Ruger is too slow
• Ruger's ammo is too low
• It has movementacc (Minimi has too, but Minimi's an auto, Ruger's a semi)

A tip against the Ruger: NEVER attack a Ruger-user without getting at least more than 1/2 health (unless he himself is going to be killed). As long as you're bleeding, get a healthpack. A Ruger will annihilate any injured opponent like a Rambo Bow against a Spas at long range. And if you are going to attack a defensive Ruger, try getting a friend to help you. Ruger works very well with good support fire - so becareful. The Ruger's defense is broken once he starts to reload, which won't take long.



See how what I have suggested might really make the Ruger fulfill its purpose - by making its advantages really shine while its disadvantages glaring enough. You can really see a Ruger's disadvantages here. The current Ruger is overpowered because its disadvantages are not really glaring while its advantages are too strong and the Ruger exceeds its purpose.



(After typing this, I don't see a reason for the BULLET speed of the Ruger to be changed.)

[Extacide]

HK doesn't really have much of a bullet push. Grenades can push too, and both ends wield them so to what effect is a spas's bullet push worth when a ruger can push just as much within the same proximity?

I was speaking in the view of a clan war, using theoretical 1v1 situations where both were of equal skill to point out theoretical advantages and disadvantages, and then applying them to the standard 3v3 CTF setup, basically saying ruger has a lot of advantages when the user is smart enough to know them.

If it were 3 rugers vs. 3 whatever (and I've seen this setup dominate by three excellent rugers), they can kick the crap out of any setup, OTHER than autos. And that is only because the ruger has a little bit of bink. Other then that, nothing would really have an ADVANTAGE. They can realistically and most possibly be beaten by any other gun through ingenuity and skill, but that doesn't change the fact that they had a theoretical advantage that unbalances the situations.

Bink doesn't really prevent the ruger from rushing. That is more or less moveacc, making the ruger inaccurate as they run. Bink would have no virtual impact upon their ability to rush and fire. It would how ever make an impact on their ability to float around as a mini-sniper, keeping distance and picking off targets slowly as they move along, abusing their range.

A tip against the Ruger: NEVER attack a Ruger-user without getting at least more than 1/2 health (unless he himself is going to be killed). As long as you're bleeding, get a healthpack.

Er, I can be extremely defensive while running alt, but you can't afford to go to those extremes. Theres really no time to break a rush and give them a closer conflict line to the base. Theres ways to beat ruger with no health. I've done it hundreds of times. The ruger bullet is extremely fast and straight, making it easy to throw someone else's aim off. You give ruger user's a little too much credit. Not even the best are perfect.

[adam01526]

1 shot kill in realistic seems ridiculous to me, it's like a barrett without startup, it has huge speed.

In real life if you get shot with a gun and you have a bullet proof vest then depending were you are hit you will have could have a few broken ribs or any other broken bones, now if you dont have a bullet proof vest then you will probably be killed or severely wounded.

[STM1993]

Weird, it's coming to me that the experimental 1.5 balance actually solves everything with lower damage but making the Ruger crappier as a weapon by itself but ultimately balanced when there's teamwork - and actually turns it away from being too much of a Barrett unlike the balance I was thinking of...(8th you're a genius!)



Anyway, just a few questions to Extacide:
How much does bink really affect the Ruger?
Realistically, any gun can defeat the Ruger (even if both have the same skill), but why?
Why is it that you believe that autos can defeat the Ruger best other than bink?

For your info - startup time is really the reason why Barrett is truly affected by bink.

Code: [Select]

[1.5 Training Experiment Ruger:]
Damage=246
FireInterval=40
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=90
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0


Slightly off-topic
Lol @ 3 Rugers. This is really a solid defense in Soldat - as though it were in the medieval times when there were muskets, and using the tactic whereby one man shoots, then the next man fires while the first is reloading.

(This is the last edit I'm giving this post)

[tehsnipah]

Too many words guys... Is there any way to shorten it!?!?!

[STM1993]

Bleh, after so much posting did I finally realize the 1.5 experimental balance is actually the best balance =.="

It somehow made the Ruger really crappy by itself and 1v1, but it is much more balanced in team situations. But I believe 246 damage is a little too low, 247 is better.

Too many words guys... Is there any way to shorten it!?!?!

...

This is Weapons Balance Discussion, where we discuss about the balance of weapons. OF COURSE we need details to show how a weapon can be overpowered. I know my posts are super long, because there is a lot of explanation and details there, and it can be difficult to sum everything up without elaborating what is needed.

[Extacide]

The best way I could show you is in a 1v1 and play on a map using steyr against your ruger that is completely racist against ruger. In the most extreme fashion possible, you'll get a glimpse as to why it's the best way to counter it. It obviously wouldn't be 100% realistic to actual situations, but theres only about a 15-25% situational difference between what happens in this simulation as we could call it, and what usually and always happens in an actual clan war.

1) Depends on the situation. If the ruger fires first, probably not enough to affect their second shot, assuming the said ruger is accurate enough to land all of them. If a third shot is in order, good chance it will miss if the ruger isn't accurate and the auto IS accurate, keeping note that after the first shot, the auto user will have had a bead on the ruger the entire time ALSO assuming that the auto user them self is good. In this situation which happens 60% of the time, ruger wins.

Auto is rushing and sees and KNOWS where the ruger is coming, which happens 80% of the time when a person plays to counter it. Starts with blind spray into their charge direction, which usually deters the ruger from coming in. Followed by a close in after the first reload with the auto user opening with the bead first, and most likely closing in for a grenade to finish it. The ruger is a lot more likely to miss one-two shots especially if they're floating in mid air.

I hope those two different situations give you my perspective on how it works. I can't really give you some kind of detailed explanation without saying, 'shoot them long enough and it will bink and throw off their aim.' So I went with the example road instead.

2) This breaks down further.

1) Situation: This is key.
2) Who is playing to counter.
3) Who knows where the other is first.
4) Who is playing to kill, and who is playing to cap.
5) Intelligence/Skill difference.
6) LUCK.

Most of my explanations aren't as serious as I make them to be, they have but a small effect, but there are times when that difference is extremely noticeable and easily taken advantage of.

3) Because, ruger vs. ruger is a match of who aims/dodges better, followed by everything i mentioned above. Auto is a different class entirely that doesn't take as much aim, rather how good are they at following a bead. Their distance is much bigger because they can spray, as I explained earlier. 4 shots have a very low chance to hit even in a tunnel, 30-50 however, much different story. It can also keep them at bay off screen with continued spray.

I'd seriously have to play you and show you myself if all of my explanations aren't enough. Theories can only go so far. :/

[STM1993]

Unfortunately I'm a theorist rather than a player - I'm a terrible pub player myself XD

Oh ya one last question I missed out:
Did you consider lowering the damage or speed of the Ruger and how it would affect the balance?

[Extacide]

Well, they removed the bink most likely so that ruger could run around freely and put bullets into any gun without being retardedly over powered. It's as balanced as what I suggested, and it really does make it more of an anti-auto than it used to be, although the nature of the ruger will never actually make it as much of an anti-auto as it is weak against it. Then again, it also adds a stake into the heart of the dominance of autos.

The cons though: At the same time, it also adds to why auto's dominate in leagues. If the ruger takes more shots to kill, it could mean a higher chance of misregs, adding to the random luck factor. Ontop of that, it would further dissolve the ruger as a unique specialist gun. It wouldn't change it, but it'd definitely be noticeable.

See, my theories are experience based, not statistical (although statistics sort of play into it). Like, you'd have to have played everything I have played through to really get a grip as to what I'm explaining. If you've never gathered/CW'ed, you probably won't know why steyr really owns ruger. I'd probably be better off showing you anyways so you at least get the idea, even though it wouldn't really be a balanced simulation.

[-Major-]

personally I find the ruger extremly strong. but it got it disadvantages when it comes to defending.
Example, we're playing Laos as Bravo (right side) and you're the guy defending with a ruger. unluckily you missed when the guy jumped down to the med pack. now due to your low ammo he can just push out and kill you.

if the defender had an auto, this med pack camping would be less effective as 1 hit removes 1 med pack.

EDIT: the disadvantage comes also in attacking.

[excruciator]

steyr vs ruger only works on 1 on 1, and perhaps pubs. It does not counter ruger when rushing.

What the hell are you talking about? Ruger gets blown away when you rush it with a steyr (as long as you arent retarded in the way you do it)

I think that is more of steyr+nade

[Mallow007]

Extacide...Again in your words:

Auto is rushing and sees and KNOWS where the ruger is coming, which happens 80% of the time when a person plays to counter it. Starts with blind spray into their charge direction, which usually deters the ruger from coming in. Followed by a close in after the first reload with the auto user opening with the bead first, and most likely closing in for a grenade to finish it. The ruger is a lot more likely to miss one-two shots especially if they're floating in mid air.

This only happens whent u MOVE IN PREDICTIBLE WAYS DUDE or if you are dumb enough to keep using ruger is the enemy team is spraying like crazy

[Thinkto urself]

This only happens whent u MOVE IN PREDICTIBLE WAYS DUDE or if you are dumb enough to keep using ruger is the enemy team is spraying like crazy

You guys, SHOULD I GO UP OR DOWN?
What the hell does, "Predictible ways" mean? For one, it's hard as hell to manuever without having to superman, and if you superman mid weapon fire, your gun goes kapoot for a second.

[Extacide]

It goes back to the air vs. ground debate thinktourself. Stay on the ground and you maneuver much better. Stay in the air and you can aim more easily but you yourself are a floating target. Mallow however has absolutely no idea what he's talking about once again, and you pretty much nailed it right on the head with that sarcastic comment.

Mallow, two things.

1. Quote command: [.quote][./quote]

DIRECTIONS FOR USE:

1. Start with [.quote].
2. Paste the said quote after the quote bracket.
3. End quote with [./quote].
4. Remove any periods within the bracket.

Alternative solution, click the quote button to the far right corner of the person's post, which will open a window with that post already quoted.

2. If the spray forces you to change gun, then you just proved I'm correct. If its too hard to ruger into spray, then obviously the ruger was countered, and the person has to switch to stand a better chance. Case closed? GG.

[nEttsE]

I tested out the 1.5 balance (246 damage). I had a lot more 3 hit kills than 2 hits, so I think the damage is too low. Around 248-250 would be decent I guess, depending on which way you balance the Ruger.

INDEED!!!!!!!!! finally someone says the trut...to me is the same deal with ruger 1.5 i get more 3 hit kills...and less 2 hit kills...and ruger should be 2 mandatory cause 3 hits=des so....YEAH BUFF THE RUGER!

My god... Wouldn't be Ruger every-time-two-shots-one-kill so unfair? Try to play against Ruger and then say these things. That would be kinda overpowered.

[Mallow007]

The thing about predictable ways is like this: Exatide says that pros use to spray in some directions based on their experience, they can predict they ways a player is moving in the map so they can actually go ahead and start blind fire or spray, and ruger players are affect by this...Well yeah BUT ONLY if u move in predictable ways..a  good ruger user usually RUSH  or hide to get close and the BOOM nade+shot an auto cant counter that.

Autos can bink u using ruger yeah(only in 1.4, 1.5 ruger =no bink ) so yeah at long range u will FAIL and lose health by going straight to the spray...so by the time u get close to ur foe you got your health really  low...i don't know if i explain my self?

[Mallow007]

My god... Wouldn't be Ruger every-time-two-shots-one-kill so unfair? Try to play against Ruger and then say these things. That would be kinda overpowered.
[/quote]

2 hit ruger is perfect dude cause if we make the ruge 3 hits...then it will be a long range desert and that sucks is a little overpowered in PRO HANDS...but what weapons is not overpower in the hands of a pro?

[Extacide]

My god... Wouldn't be Ruger every-time-two-shots-one-kill so unfair?

Noticeably yes. That's why I would definitely suggest more bink to compensate by making the definitive anti-ruger.

Well yeah BUT ONLY if u move in predictable ways..a  good ruger user usually RUSH

Really? I didn't know there was any other way to go on laos. Let's take the magical tunnel that no one knows about that's behind the base that goes all the way around the entire map. Or the second low route below the original low route on ash that no one seems to use. Yeah Mallow, where else are you going to go? If you have to avoid the spray (and the spray usually is laid across the fastest way to go through a route), then you will be slower and easier to hit when you do come out. If you decide to rush like an idiot into the spray, you'll probably enter the fight at 50% health. Hiding is a play of defense, and rushing is a purely offensive tactic. Pick one, I don't think you can rush and hide at the same time, unless you're sneaking predator kits into each map.