Ruger Discussion

[LtKillroy]

Most of these arguements are based on opinions and conjecture. Ruger is a very solid weapon, but its effectiveness severely drops when you miss. It is probably going to lose some damage for more balance in the next version. That is the ruger.

[Wilson]

Well that's IF you make a head shot Niko, ruger actually needs two shots to kill a guy in real mod also.

Or speed+torso or higher is kill

[Extacide]

@Mallow007

Do you have the slightest idea what you're even talking about? I didn't think so. Get out of the pubs and learn something. Your argument is complete BS, and is falling upon deaf ears.

Also, learn to quote properly instead of copy/pasting my entire posts.

[Mallow007]

Extacide...ni99a plz no body is talking u ur aguments are based on Dm wtf i mean

[Extacide]

They aren't, they're based on DM fundamentals I apply regularly in CTF, which is the very core of my ability to kill other people. The only difference between that and CTF is the flag.

[-Major-]

to be honest I find Mallow007 arguments to be very invalid, I can't even keep track of what he's saying because he got no structure in his sentences. the thing with ruger is, it only got 4 bullets. when it's reload time the ruger user have to move back or try to pass. during this time autos got free time to get close and kill the rugerer. due to the small bink given it may take 3 bullets to kill off the autoer.

Mallow007 please, try to play on gathers, and later on play some cws.

[Mallow007]

Lol...i gather and i Cw alot...i dunno what are u talking about.

Im in .:EN:. so we cw like everyday

[STM1993]

Alright, I'd agree with Extacide.

But what do you think really is a better balance? Should the Ruger lose its damage severely for speed, or should it keep its damage but lose some speed?

Either 246 damage + 90 reload (40 fireinterval, no bink)
or
248-250 damage + 100-110 reload (40-45 fireinterval, no bink)



I believe a Ruger's reload is actually fast enough.

[Extacide]

I think it needs more bink. While I do argue that the best counter against ruger is auto, if it's bink is removed then it will just be too versatile in the transition from defense to offense, eliminating the need for cover (although still not as effective.) It will also make it much less difficult to fight an auto. My suggestion would be this (comparing it against the 1.4.2 balance, not the 1.5)

+whatever damage (I never tested the numbers, so~) it takes to make 2 shot kills a LITTLE more consistent.
+5 fire interval (I suck with WM, so whatever makes it slower LOL)
+1-2 bink
Reload the same

This way, the ruger is a nuke weapon that is a proper hybrid to the Barret, and also has a definitive counter (autos). It should NOT be a pure rush weapon, and removing bink is a TERRIBLE idea and one step closer. If anything, they should deal a major buff to Desert Eagles so that they can instantly be recognized as an anti-auto.

[excruciator]

Agreed, somehow the combat triangle seems to favor auto much more than semi or one hit. Time to balance it a bit.

[Extacide]

It's not that it favors autos, rather just the nature of autos that some times tilt the scales a bit.

- They're not the most difficult weapon to use (30-50 bullets, not much margin for error when missing).
- They're EXTREMELY reliable for the above mentioned fact, as well as one of the best supplements against lag.
- They're EXTREMELY versatile, and useful in almost every situation (thanks to grenades for close encounters/dodging through cover, they receive a crutch from that).**1
- They work VERY well with teamwork in clan wars (because of the first and third features).
- Blind spray (Thanks to the first mentioned fact)

Statistically they're balanced, and the trend in the balance seems to lean towards buffing semi's to even the odds, but when they balance and buff the semi's more than the auto's to counter the versatility of autos, it inevitably causes the semi's to be extremely over powered. When both are balanced, auto's are the most popular choice and dominate. The main problem is the versatility of autos. This is why semi's need to be more diverse, which is why I do not suggest buffing ruger by removing its bink, and further buffing desert eagles to make them even more effective against autos. M79, a great counter to autos is also getting an axe to it's range which is another + to the autos. The autos do counter themselves, and THEIR counters fall back into the cycle starting with spas, but the cycle inevitably leans towards the domination of autos.

**1 I thought I'd elaborate a little on why I say grenades are a crutch for autos. Naturally, autos do little damage and require a bead (or a constant open line of fire) to maintain consistent damage that compares with semi's. Semi's/one shotters on the other hand don't, and deal burst damage. They use this to their advantage by using cover (jumping up and down behind a polygon for example) which basically makes the auto obsolete. However, the auto can simply charge in and grenade, making them effective both in open air where they hold a bead, AND by the fact that they can manage close encounters with the capabilities of the grenade.

[excruciator]

Its hard to buff semis because 3 hit kill seems weak, yet two hit seems to strong.
Its hard to find a middle ground.

But what if instead of damage decrease with range, we make it more for ruger? That would make ruger a rather effective counter for autos, also makes skill matters more.

[Extacide]

But, ruger isn't supposed to be effective against autos, at least not all autos. The ruger's main advantages are against short ranged autos, m79, and every other semi. Their counter is supposed to be (for the most part) barret, steyr, and minimi. The ruger is on par with the AK74, and has it's advantages and disadvantages varying upon the situation. If they increase the bink, the steyr will counter the ruger as it should. The minimi will always have a one up (for the most part). The ruger isn't supposed to be an anti-auto. It's supposed to be a semi-counter, but every other semi is too weak. It's playing a role it's not supposed to be playing in this balance.

[excruciator]

In most games, an short ranged weapon is a weapon that cannot fight effectively at long range due to accuracy and/or the bullet does not go far enough to hurt people outside its range.

I don't think soldat's short ranged weapon are actually short ranged.

[Extacide]

Of course not. With the abilities of some of soldat's finest players, the weapons capabilities only expand further and further. AK74 is supposed to be a mid-long ranged weapon, but thanks to grenades and ingenuity they can work close ranged as well. Steyr is supposed to be short to mid ranged, but the incredible aim of some players makes it easily long ranged and far beyond. HK is supposed to be a short ranged auto, but people manage to get past mid range and sometimes long when shooting from a height. Spas, same as HK.

That still doesn't eliminate the fact that a gun intended for long range has an advantage over short range. To put this into perspective, two equal players of skill fighting long range vs short range, the long range inevitably wins, because they are simply using the superior weapon for that situation, regardless of the skill of the opposing (because they are equal) that supplements the disadvantages of their own gun. And as I have said, the clan scene falls within only one to two brackets of skill level, so there aren't huge differences in the abilities of common clan players.

Do you see what I mean?

[excruciator]

Then the short ranged weapon have to get some amazing boost.
The reason why long ranged weapon can beat short ranged weapon at their niche is partially due to nades.
But that is for another thread.

[Extacide]

But that's not how the balance is supposed to work. Spas is SUPPOSED to get owned by ruger where ruger's range can reign supreme. Ruger is effectively countered by steyr in open air however, and spas dominates both close range. Steyr is countered open air by AK/Desert Eagles and in other cases ruger depending on skill (and even m79) because they don't get binked (discluding the ruger) so the spray advantage that steyr has is eliminated. This web of advantages and disadvantages weaves its way through every weapon.

[Ziem]

Steyr counters Ruger (sometimes.) because it's overpowered auto.
And where do you see those DE players owning Steyr fags (70-80% of clanning scene) in open air? I barely see anyone playing DE's at all (yes, I use de's on cws sometimes _{^{(hi mozzer)}}).

[excruciator]

steyr vs ruger only works on 1 on 1, and perhaps pubs. It does not counter ruger when rushing.

[Extacide]

steyr vs ruger only works on 1 on 1, and perhaps pubs. It does not counter ruger when rushing.

What the hell are you talking about? Ruger gets blown away when you rush it with a steyr (as long as you arent retarded in the way you do it)