crash course in believing :) not pointing at anyone *cough*mangled*cough*

[PANZERCATWAGON]

someone can KNOW an apple is green. this means they are 100% sure that the apple is green. someone can also BELIEVE an apple is green. this means they dont actually know, but through what they have experienced in their universe they conclude that it is most probable the apple is green

which is why i hate it when some people walk around saying they are an athiest, a thiest or an agnostic and that they KNOW their view is true

this leads to people taking GIANT s**tS on other people when it comes to these views opposing

and its not just bad but its also stupid

you cant ever KNOW that god exists. you can just believe that. you also cant KNOW that he doesnt exist

and even more for agnostics, you cant ever KNOW that its impossible to find out whether or not god exists

these words are all centered around belief. if you are logical enough to realize that what you and other people believe are entirely plausible there wouldnt be so much dick smoking going on

sure you can discuss about points that may affect those beliefs. but saying

MY BELIEF IS RIGHT YOURS IS WRONG

is f**king stupid and you should be shot

good day sir



p.s. for you philosophical nazis, i am talking on a just barely relative to real life basis. so no ololo you are assuming the universe is real or what about pre defined events, universes etc etc

[Mangled*]

An apple being green is a terrible analogy to use for what is the most important question in the universe.

We've talked about this before. "Believing" that the apple is green does not change the fact that it is red. You can either settle for believing in a potential fallacy or you can seek the truth and come to the realisation that there is no apple.

No, there is not yet a way of determining if God does or does not exist. There is no proof either way. The fact is that God has all the characteristics of an object that does not exist. There is no proof for both his existance and non-existance.

What I know is that all religions are completely false. They are systems of belief created by humans to answer questions that thousands of years ago could not be answered. All scripture is self-proclaimed word of God with no way of determining authenticity.

There are two types of religious people. There are fundementalists and there are hypocrites. Fundementalists believe solidly in their religion despite how often parts of it are downright proved wrong. Hypocrites label themselves as being part of a religion but then pick and choose what does and does not seem relevant and feasible from that religions teachings, constantly evading their "belief" clashing with the ever expanding knowledge of science.

Believe or 'know' what you want, but that doesn't make it true. Religion is out of date.

[Iq Unlimited]

Agnostic people don't believe unless there's proof, and as one, I don't believe my way of seeing the world is absolutely true about religion, I just don't like to believe blindly in something I can't see or feel. No one is sure about religion and beliefs, seeing as how we are all different. So I completely agree on everything you just said except the agnostic bash. Unless I'm not an agnostic. Lol.


EDIT: Mangled. You don't know anything about how the world works. Please. Please. Shut up.

[PANZERCATWAGON]

iq, it depends on what you think an agnostic view is

to me, its someone that believes that the existance or non existance of god is impossible to prove

i was just saying that when you support that view, you should not know that its impossible to prove or disprove the existance of god, but simply believe it

mangled

you completely missed the point of what i was saying

[iDante]

A good Christian would argue that God communicates in some way with the people when they pray/do other religion-y stuff and that lets them KNOW that what they are doing is right. I've never been particularly religious, but my Christian friends seem to be pretty sure on the fact that there is a being that transcends us all that they are communicating with.

[SadistAtHeart]

What I know is that all religions are completely false.

How do you know that?

[jettlarue]

A good christian would persecute homosexuals because it says so in mark. I can find the exact reference if it need be, although I'm a bit tired and you can for yourself. 99% of people follow a religion without researching it. From what the bible says, almost all people I have met are going to hell, and it's because they are scared to follow their religion word by word. If I truly believed I was going to burn in hell forever for not doing something, I would probably. But then again even being in heaven is pointless because the thought of billions of people in agony for infinity and there is nothing I could do besides sit on my lavish cloud is a much worse hell than actually being there. Also really recommend to anyone who hasn't watched it, "The god who wasn't their". Shows the pure stupidity of it in less time than it would take for me to write.

If I were to say that I believe in a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh with me and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah you would call me f**king crazy, but because your thought is rationalized by society, and how it is so willing to let groups they do not fully research into control their lives to some extent. I believe you are the crazy f**king out of your mind one for this one.

But I am glad you have the right to believe what you want and I do also.
All the best mate, I hope you don't have children one day and fill them with this false sense of wellbeing. Really all of it is one big f***ing lie. Good luck with being taken seriously by anyone who thinks for themself, atleast on this issue.
All of your ancestors must number in the millions; its hard to believe that there are so many people to blame for producing you.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

What I know is that all religions are completely false. They are systems of belief created by humans to answer questions that thousands of years ago could not be answered. All scripture is self-proclaimed word of God with no way of determining authenticity.

However, in order for that to be true, you must assume that there is no God and there is no absolute morality.  If you do not make that assumption, then your statement becomes baseless, fueled only by your own cynicism.

From what the bible says, almost all people I have met are going to hell, and it's because they are scared to follow their religion word by word.

You must have a different Bible than me, because mine says pretty clearly that good works don't get us into heaven at all.

If I were to say that I believe in a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh with me and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah you would call me f**king crazy, but because your thought is rationalized by society, and how it is so willing to let groups they do not fully research into control their lives to some extent. I believe you are the crazy f**king out of your mind one for this one.

And evolution is the belief that nothing exploded and created everything, that rocks turned into animals, that people are related to bananas, and that us having different hair color proves all of this.

See? I can do it too!

[Kazuki]

What I know is that all religions are completely false.

How do you know that?

Because all religions use scripture as a means and an end. All currently existing religions require the acknowledgment of God's existence to precede any moral cultivation. Am I wrong? Can one be a Christian by being morally good without having discovered God?

Introduce me to a faith that offers a strict and universal moral code as an end and scripture as merely the means to such an end, and I will follow said faith proudly. It would be taught so that moral values would be imposed upon scripture rather than extracted from it, and therefore everyone would interpret scripture very similarly. If this was the case with existing religions, Christianity would not be split into a googolplex of small sects which differ mainly in their interpretations of specific portions of scripture.

A true religion would be one which strives toward moral cultivation primarily and toward the discovery and acknowledgment of God secondarily.

Despite all, the definition of God is such that proof for or against his existence is simply impossible.

Edit: Not to mention, it's my firm belief that the story of Jesus Christ is a perfected plagiarism of several other myths which precede it, mainly the Egyptian god Horus, as Mangled already stated. Although it may seem like an advertisement, I strongly advise all of you to watch Zeitgeist. It may fall under the "we can make just about anything believable if we try hard enough" category, but I found it interesting enough to watch it at least three times.

[The Philanthropist]

What I know is that all religions are completely false.

How do you know that?

Introduce me to a faith that offers a strict and universal moral code as an end and scripture as merely the means to such an end, and I will follow said faith proudly. It would be taught so that moral values would be imposed upon scripture rather than extracted from it, and therefore everyone would interpret scripture very similarly. If this was the case with existing religions, Christianity would not be split into a googolplex of small sects which differ mainly in their interpretations of specific portions of scripture.

Theravada Buddhism, or Zen Buddhism. Probably Taoism and Confucianism as well...

They don't have a specific object of worship, and the object of their faith can only be reached through their moral codes.

Theravada never really rang home with me because of the Hindu influence of Karma, but Zen buddhism is rather interesting. You essentially are given a riddle and told to solve it, and the answer leads you to enlightenment. You use unlogic to reach that place though. Taoism and Confucianism aren't as much religions as they are a way of functioning in society I guess...

[Antipathy]

you cant ever KNOW that god exists. you can just believe that. you also cant KNOW that he doesnt exist

and even more for agnostics, you cant ever KNOW that its impossible to find out whether or not god exists

What a nice contradiction. In fact I'll probably frame that and put it in front of my bed.

[The Philanthropist]

Edit: Not to mention, it's my firm belief that the story of Jesus Christ is a perfected plagiarism of several other myths which precede it, mainly the Egyptian god Horus, as Mangled already stated. Although it may seem like an advertisement, I strongly advise all of you to watch Zeitgeist. It may fall under the "we can make just about anything believable if we try hard enough" category, but I found it interesting enough to watch it at least three times.

I'm 40 minutes in, and it has jack shit to do with religion so far. So it's kinda irrelevant to the discussion.

[Brock]

I kinda agree with Panzer

The only way to truly know 100% for damned sure who's up there (if anyone) is to actually GO there.

Honestly, I don't really care weather or not i know how the universe started.  I stopped caring long ago when I realized above fact. ^^^


When I die I'll find out.

[Demonic]

Oh GOD I just love religious threads.

I strongly advise all of you to watch Zeitgeist. It may fall under the "we can make just about anything believable if we try hard enough" category, but I found it interesting enough to watch it at least three times.

Guess what. Turns out Zeitgeist has about the same amount of bullcrap as it blames on Christianity. You could look up the mentioned facts on wikipedia, and see them leaking already. As far as I recon, the only one standing from their examples is Mithras, and even that's crippled a bit.

There are two types of religious people. There are fundementalists and there are hypocrites. Fundementalists believe solidly in their religion despite how often parts of it are downright proved wrong. Hypocrites label themselves as being part of a religion but then pick and choose what does and does not seem relevant and feasible from that religions teachings, constantly evading their "belief" clashing with the ever expanding knowledge of science.

Hey, hypocrit reporting here. Turns out that you can't choose between being dumb or staying clever, since you're getting labeled either way. Heck, it also turns out that even though you try and follow the arbitary moral code set by Jesus Christ (which could be interpreted like almost.. freaking anything), you will get pointed fingers at. Some from christians, some from atheists, like everyone instantly knows better.

I perfectly understand what is 'dumb' in this religion. I perfectly reject the idea of infernal and eternal torment for those who sinned, I reject the idea of a soul existing, and God knows that I wanked enough to get me burned if we had lived in the middle ages. However, I consider myself a christian, altough the answer to 'based on what?' is slipping my grasp day by day.

I have a friend, a girl, same age as me. As she puts it, she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart at the age of 15. She went through a major change, with faith giving a purpouse to her life. Never the brightest tool in the box, but she had faith that God will help her prevail. Now she is in a happy relationship, planning on marriage, studying to be a social helper at the baptist's university. More than that, after long days of die-hard prayer and reading of scripture, one night she burst out, speaking tongues, uncontrollably. Now, I underline that she has not telled a lie since her 'turning', always helps everyone, and her existance is something anyone could consider a step forward for this crummy world.

Now you tell her that all what she believes in is nonsense bullcrap, that she is probably lying and she's totally delluded. You do that, and you rob her of her purpouse. Now won't that just make you the better fucking man. That's not the same weight as Santa doesn't exist.

No it won't. Get off your pedestal of enlightment.

[Pie]

An apple being green is a terrible analogy to use for what is the most important question in the universe.

By who's standards?

[jrgp]

There are two types of religious people. There are fundementalists and there are hypocrites. Fundementalists believe solidly in their religion despite how often parts of it are downright proved wrong. Hypocrites label themselves as being part of a religion but then pick and choose what does and does not seem relevant and feasible from that religions teachings, constantly evading their "belief" clashing with the ever expanding knowledge of science.

Reading this, even though you mispelled fundamentalists twice, has made me rethink my being a Catholic. I find what you said to be a very interesting fact and will probably mention it to a few people I know and hope for an interesting reaction.

[Mangled*]

EDIT: Mangled. You don't know anything about how the world works. Please. Please. Shut up.

I know more about how the world works than the people who wrote the Bible. I can thank scientists, writers, lecturers and historians for that.

you completely missed the point of what i was saying

No I did not miss the point of what you were saying. In fact I think I to some extent backed it up. Perhaps you have missed the point of what I was saying.

A good Christian would argue that God communicates in some way with the people when they pray/do other religion-y stuff and that lets them KNOW that what they are doing is right. I've never been particularly religious, but my Christian friends seem to be pretty sure on the fact that there is a being that transcends us all that they are communicating with.

Do these friends of yours accept that their very strong faith in the Christian God is nothing more than an accident of birth and that had they been born in the middle east they would believe in Allah? If they had been born somewhere else to different parents they could just as likely be Catholic or Jewish or not have any religion at all.

If there is a God then which God is the God that is God? Because there's thousands of Gods that have been worshipped since the dawn of man. Surely the earliest one has more chance of being correct.

What I know is that all religions are completely false.

How do you know that?

Because there are hundreds, maybe thousands of religions that have existed since man evolved. They do not pre-date language or human society, they are a product of it. Fairy tales and legends that get passed down over generations, get warped and expanded upon, written down and then spread.

Religions do not teach the truth, otherwise they would not have so many obvious fallacies, they teach a self-proclaimed truth which was thought up by someone.

The only way to truly know 100% for damned sure who's up there (if anyone) is to actually GO there.

Honestly, I don't really care weather or not i know how the universe started.  I stopped caring long ago when I realized above fact. ^^^

When I die I'll find out.

That's the catch to all religions, you can't know if you've wasted your life worshipping the wrong one until its too late. But from the way you've written that, it seems like you're kind of holding out for an afterlife.

Once you die, friend, its lights out... you won't even know you're dead. You won't know anything.

Oh GOD I just love religious threads.

I strongly advise all of you to watch Zeitgeist. It may fall under the "we can make just about anything believable if we try hard enough" category, but I found it interesting enough to watch it at least three times.

Guess what. Turns out Zeitgeist has about the same amount of bullcrap as it blames on Christianity. You could look up the mentioned facts on wikipedia, and see them leaking already. As far as I recon, the only one standing from their examples is Mithras, and even that's crippled a bit.

There are two types of religious people. There are fundementalists and there are hypocrites. Fundementalists believe solidly in their religion despite how often parts of it are downright proved wrong. Hypocrites label themselves as being part of a religion but then pick and choose what does and does not seem relevant and feasible from that religions teachings, constantly evading their "belief" clashing with the ever expanding knowledge of science.

Hey, hypocrit reporting here. Turns out that you can't choose between being dumb or staying clever, since you're getting labeled either way. Heck, it also turns out that even though you try and follow the arbitary moral code set by Jesus Christ (which could be interpreted like almost.. freaking anything), you will get pointed fingers at. Some from christians, some from atheists, like everyone instantly knows better.

I perfectly understand what is 'dumb' in this religion. I perfectly reject the idea of infernal and eternal torment for those who sinned, I reject the idea of a soul existing, and God knows that I wanked enough to get me burned if we had lived in the middle ages. However, I consider myself a christian, altough the answer to 'based on what?' is slipping my grasp day by day.

I have a friend, a girl, same age as me. As she puts it, she accepted Jesus Christ into her heart at the age of 15. She went through a major change, with faith giving a purpouse to her life. Never the brightest tool in the box, but she had faith that God will help her prevail. Now she is in a happy relationship, planning on marriage, studying to be a social helper at the baptist's university. More than that, after long days of die-hard prayer and reading of scripture, one night she burst out, speaking tongues, uncontrollably. Now, I underline that she has not telled a lie since her 'turning', always helps everyone, and her existance is something anyone could consider a step forward for this crummy world.

Now you tell her that all what she believes in is nonsense bullcrap, that she is probably lying and she's totally delluded. You do that, and you rob her of her purpouse. Now won't that just make you the better f**king man. That's not the same weight as Santa doesn't exist.

No it won't. Get off your pedestal of enlightment.[/size]

Could you cite how exactly Zeitgeist is "full of bullcrap"? I found it rather compelling. I think the overall message of it was don't believe the first thing that you hear.

The moral code of "be nice" isn't exclusive to Christianity, or any religion for that matter. Jesus was a good guy but hell, so was Ghandi and at least we know Ghandi existed, am I right?

Perhaps you are not so much a Christian as simply a theist who leans towards the Christian belief system, it's good that you willingly admit that parts of your religion are truely outrageous, because that takes some guts. I know plenty of religious people who would lie to get out of that one, say that the ridiculous parts of the scripture are not meant to be taken literally, et cetera.

As for the girl speaking tongues.... I've seen people who are mentally ill, braindamaged or off their head on smack speaking tongues. Religion doesn't give people a purpose, it perhaps gives them some comfort and false promises. Purpose in life should be found in love and just being human, being an active part of society. You don't need to dedicate yourself to some ancient and rather pornographic book to give your life meaning. Just be yourself and enjoy life and persue your dreams and that is all the purpose you need to be fulfilled.

Fun fact: I went to a Christian school as a child, I believed in Santa until the age of 7 but I never once believed in God or Jesus.

An apple being green is a terrible analogy to use for what is the most important question in the universe.

By who's standards?

By mine, and that's enough. I can't think of a more important one.

There are two types of religious people. There are fundementalists and there are hypocrites. Fundementalists believe solidly in their religion despite how often parts of it are downright proved wrong. Hypocrites label themselves as being part of a religion but then pick and choose what does and does not seem relevant and feasible from that religions teachings, constantly evading their "belief" clashing with the ever expanding knowledge of science.

Reading this, even though you mispelled fundamentalists twice, has made me rethink my being a Catholic. I find what you said to be a very interesting fact and will probably mention it to a few people I know and hope for an interesting reaction.

You just earned some respect there jrgp. I am finding you a more and more likable person in these forums as someone who can stand back and get a larger view of the situation.

[Pie]

Look, I don't know about you, each to their own, but...

If someone believes in something, why would you try and take that away from them. My brother used to know a guy in prison serving a life sentence who thought he had lost it all, his house, his wife, his kids, his freedom and eventually he tried to kill himself because he had nothing to live for. The prison guards found him with his wrists cut sitting in his cell and they patched him up. he told my brother that while he was trying to commit suicide he was struck by divine intervention which saved his life and gave him something to live for. Instead of trying to kill himself and feeling like there was no hope, he changed his life completely and become a better person. All because that's what he believed.

I'm not saying he was right and you're wrong, but it seems to me like you bring people down for this and it's not right. Why take away something that people put value in, It's like me taking away your house and your job, some people need faith. So why does it matter if they believe?

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve... I mean, you've got your own views which is great, all people should be able to mold their own beliefs and opinions, but why do you discount other people's so openly?

Why are they stupid for believing? Why aren't you stupid for believing in science?
All i'm trying to ask is where is the line, and why are you somehow above everyone else?

[STM1993]

Why are we still arguing about religion?

You can't prove God exists, but neither can you prove he doesn't exist. Since that is the case, you can't prove any religion right or wrong either. That's why you can't know that God exists, and that's why there's something called "Faith".

Yes, you may say: "I've experienced God!". But there could be many different explanations for this. Perhaps God truly exists? Perhaps you were hallucinating? Or perhaps even, humans have this ability to make things come true when they have strong faith, belief or hope. Maybe science can't tell us anything about God, because he is somehow able to bend the scientific laws that could have been used to prove him. Maybe Jesus Christ was a man from the future, sent back in time to start the religion of Christianity, and was somehow able to appear into the womb of virgin Mary to be born. Perhaps God just left us alone after he created us? Perhaps we are God's playground - he's deciding for every single one of us? The problem is, we can't prove any of these. So we just make our own opinion of the matter.

There is no definite way to find out - not even dying to see the afterlife may prove all of these. What if God DID create us, but did not create an afterlife for us?

Since we are given a chance to walk this Earth and live, we should just live our lives to the best we can, for life is a gift. Now I'd like to ask a questions: What is the meaning of life? Or rather, what do you think is the meaning of life? It is from what you think life really is that determines your belief system and enforce your will to continue living.



On a side note, the Bible was translated many, many times. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a period of time when Bibles were destroyed except for a few translations such as the King James version.

[Demonic]

Could you cite how exactly Zeitgeist is "full of bullcrap"? I found it rather compelling. I think the overall message of it was don't believe the first thing that you hear.

It's poor know-how from their side of other religions. Krishna for example cannot be parelled with Jesus, nor is Buddha on the same of role at buddhism, etc.. They list a bunch of dodgy facts, like if they went 'ah I heard something about something' and just put it in the movie anyway, to make the list more impressive. They make an interesting point, I give it that, but for the first and second part of Zeitgeist, their research was rather.. poor.

The moral code of "be nice" isn't exclusive to Christianity, or any religion for that matter. Jesus was a good guy but hell, so was Ghandi and at least we know Ghandi existed, am I right?

Haha, Ghandi. The difference is that 'being nice' became sort of exclusive with the new christian fractions, while other religions still have major groups thinking that blowing shit up is the God approved way to spread faith. We've moved on to Girl scouts and Gospel groups with hot chicks.

Perhaps you are not so much a Christian as simply a theist who leans towards the Christian belief system, it's good that you willingly admit that parts of your religion are truely outrageous, because that takes some guts. I know plenty of religious people who would lie to get out of that one, say that the ridiculous parts of the scripture are not meant to be taken literally, et cetera.

As for the girl speaking tongues.... I've seen people who are mentally ill, braindamaged or off their head on smack speaking tongues. Religion doesn't give people a purpose, it perhaps gives them some comfort and false promises. Purpose in life should be found in love and just being human, being an active part of society. You don't need to dedicate yourself to some ancient and rather pornographic book to give your life meaning. Just be yourself and enjoy life and persue your dreams and that is all the purpose you need to be fulfilled.

Strangely enough, she does live that way, and is fulfilled by that. Her faith is like a catalyst for the whole process, saying she can turn to God and whatnot whenever she has a problem, looking bright into the future because she has hope. Spice that up with the whole hardcore hell if you don't accept Jesus as your saviour, and you get no sex before marriage - all in all, she does lead a life that makes me feel like a moraless refugee at times. My point is that breaking this part for her would lead to breaking her as a whole, rob it of a meaning: and as much as you're annoyed by B-grade wannabes trying to convert you to their faith, you can relate how it feels for them when someone takes a shot at them. Cognitive dissonance is not a state where they'd want to be.

Fun fact: I went to a Christian school as a child, I believed in Santa until the age of 7 but I never once believed in God or Jesus.

Oh yes. Fat guy crawling down every chimney in the world: yes. Wandering hippie fellow preaching and teaching, doing some miracles over 30 years and then rising from the dead: no. You rebel, you.