Serious Discussion: The Christian God

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

But then, how can you be so sure what God expects of you?

I'm going to answer this in the context of the Christian God, since that's the one I believe in and the one I'm most familiar with.  A Christian's source of God's expectations is the Bible; it's the core of our whole religion.  Why the Bible? Because we believe that it's not just some book written by wise men, but rather God's holy inspired word (2 Timothy 3:16-17).  In other words, the authors were just writing tools for God, and the Bible is by him, not them.  As God doesn't seem to contact us as directly as he used to, the Bible is our best bet for understanding what God wants for us.  All of the following will be spoken as fact, but as you can see from my citations, it's all from the Bible, so take that however you will.

First of all, it's important to draw a distinction between what God wants us to do and what gets us into heaven.  God and heaven are both perfect, so no sinners can ever be admitted there.  One step out of line and you're out for good.  As imperfect beings, that means that humans can't get to heaven on their own power (Romans 3:23), and that no good we do can meet God's standards (Isaiah 64:6).  God doesn't take good works into account when determining who gets let into heaven.  However, he did give us a way out: Jesus.  Jesus was fully God (John 1:1, 14) and fully man, and as such, he was able to take the punishment of our sin for us.  All it takes to get into heaven is the acceptance of that gift and a recognition that we can't get there on our own (John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9).

However, all that is simply the definition of being saved.  Naturally, God wants that because he doesn't want to see anyone sent to hell, but that's not all there is to being a Christian.  The goal of every Christian should be to become as much like God as possible, but as I said before, that's impossible to do as humans.  That's where the concept of being born again comes into play.  Christians are simply people who let God work through them, rather then acting for themselves.  They're completely new people (2 Corinthians 5:17).  How does God want us to act? With love towards everyone.  We shouldn't judge others, as we were once sinners ourselves.  We're no better than they are; all of our good acts are the result of God's work in us.  There's no room for pride or condemnation.  Romans 12:12-19 has a pretty decent outline of what God wants us to do (see below).

All of the fanaticism, the abortion clinic bombings, the singling out of homosexuals, the "God hates X for doing Y" is NOTHING like how the Bible says we're supposed to act.  Christians are supposed to treat everyone with love.  Love the sinner, hate the sin.  If everyone just led by example, people would be a lot more accepting of Christianity of a religion; they'd probably even want to become Christians themselves because of all the great people they saw.  Unfortunately, very many Christians simply ignore the Bible and shout out their own personal agendas and vandettas.

Hate has no place in a Christian's life.  I'll finish this up with two final verses, and leave you to draw your own conclusions:

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.


All scripture taken from biblegateway.com, a great site to check out if you don't have a Bible handy.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Romans 12:12-19
Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.  Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.  Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.  Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.  Do not be conceited.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.  If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.  Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

[Psycho]

The bible clearly reccomends sinners being stoned to death.

[The Geologist]

Does it really recommend doing that?  Or is there just a tale of that happening?  Big difference.

[iDante]

Probably says somewhere in the old testament to doing that. Most stuff in there was later refuted by Jesus.

I guess my problem with this whole "god" thing is that I don't really see any reason for me to believe it. "Or you'll go to hell" just aint a good enough reason for me to devote my faith to some perfect being in the sky.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I guess my problem with this whole "god" thing is that I don't really see any reason for me to believe it. "Or you'll go to hell" just aint a good enough reason for me to devote my faith to some perfect being in the sky.

Motivation from Psalm 37:4!
"Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart."

Seems like a pretty solid deal to me.  And with that, I'm off to bed.  Hopefully there will be a flood of comments for me to respond to tomorrow morning. =D

[Psycho]

Some happy genocide from Deuteronomy 20:16-17

In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you.

There are just so many f**ked up quotes from your holy book there is no room for them all on the internet. Just don't claim that the bible only preaches peace and love.

Edit: I don't mean to come across as hostile here, but only picking out the quotes and ideals that are positive to you is kind of wrong. If you go by the written words in that book, there are certainly things you seem to have missed.

[croat1gamer]

dont forget that the bible isnt written literally

and dont forget how god killed in egypt all non jewish firstborns and the whole egyptian army

[Antipathy]

Why won't God talk to me?

Why?

[Leo]

If you talk to God you are a religious person if God talks to you, you are just mad.

[Hair|Trigger]

Why won't God talk to me?

Why?

it's subliminal as fuck so you gotta pay attention

[echo_trail]

But then, how can you be so sure what God expects of you?

I'm going to answer this in the context of the Christian God, since that's the one I believe in and the one I'm most familiar with.  A Christian's source of God's expectations is the Bible; it's the core of our whole religion.  Why the Bible? Because we believe that it's not just some book written by wise men, but rather God's holy inspired word (2 Timothy 3:16-17).  In other words, the authors were just writing tools for God, and the Bible is by him, not them.  As God doesn't seem to contact us as directly as he used to, the Bible is our best bet for understanding what God wants for us.  All of the following will be spoken as fact, but as you can see from my citations, it's all from the Bible, so take that however you will.

You trust in the bible, yeah? How can you know it isn't a ripoff. If was written over a timeline that ended a long time ago, long enough for people to have grown an unquestioning trust towards it. And it was written by man, yes? Man is faulty, as we well see today. If one truely believes in God, how can you even consider taking the bible into account of his words?

Also, you say that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus and God will go to hell. But there are people around the world who have never even heard of them. What, they go to hell for not believing in something they were never introduced to? African or australian tribes, monks in Siberia, people living in remote parts of China or India.. even eskimos.
And it seems to me that it is so easy for you guys to point your fingers and say "You're wrong, we're right. Now obey or be damned for all eternity", when you're growing up with it, when it's an acceptable part of your everyday. But say you live in India where the vast majority of the population is Hindu, suddently it's not so much accepted. Or if you're a protestant living in a catholic country. The whole concept of God and the bible.. really it reminds me more of a dictatorship. However, I will say this about God and his bible. I understand some of it's basic messages, and I like them. I like the good it brings out in people.

I've always been interrested in faith and religion, though it should be noted that I see the two of them much apart. I admire a person who has faith in any god or any cause. I admire how a person can give him or herself wholeheartedly to what they believe to be something greater. That, even if I don't agree with the persons point of view, is a remarkable feature in a human. However, I see "religion" as a cage for said person, a set of predetermined rules applied to what would otherwise be the beings free natural sense of roaming through the world in the way that he or she sees fit.

I'm not a believer, as you may have figured out by now. It's not that I don't want to be, or that I'm afraid to be. I just don't agree with it, and there are too many holes in all the major religions. It all goes against my nature. However, I am not a bad man. Even in the eyes of God, aside the fact I don't believe in him/her/it/them/whatever, I'm a good person, if I can say so myself. I try to always do the right thing, and I try to help those around me. I'm an honest person, and I respect others in their beliefs as well as anything. But I will still go to hell, won't I? 'cause that's how your religion survives, through intimidation. You're using fear to force your specific denomination in on people, to make it a part of peoples everyday on such a grand scale that they live out that religion with unflinching loyalty. I'm sorry to say, but that's cowardly and it's fraud.

At least that's how I see it.

[Slashnoob]

and dont forget how god killed in egypt all non jewish firstborns and the whole egyptian army

yeah, how cool was that?

[echo_trail]

Just about as cool as the nazi holocaust.

[STM1993]

Isn't one of God's commandments is to love everyone, even your enemies?

Look here:
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot by my disciple..."

That's some major contradiction. How can you love everyone AND hate everyone? This one contradiction is solid enough for me to believe that God can't possibly be the way Christianity describes it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao&feature=channel
^ The Full Argument in this video by GIIVideo in 6th August 2006 on youtube, titled "Proving that nobody can get to heaven".

[Hair|Trigger]

Maybe if you read the bible you would actually know what you're talking about.

[Slashnoob]

Just about as cool as the nazi holocaust.

holocaust has ended = jews prevailed, nazi germany is knocked out cold.
egypt ancient war ended = jews prevailed, ancient egypt is no more.
a tidal wave, few dead babies, and your empire comes crashing down? pff, doesn't seem that tough to me!

[STM1993]

Maybe if you read the bible you would actually know what you're talking about.

Maybe if you read the bible you would actually know how to explain how such a direct command from Jesus (who is also the perfect God according to the Trinity) is not contradictory to another which he himself has made too.

I respect religion, they do teach the right morals and do help people by giving them something to believe in and follow, but I personally cannot follow a religion if there isn't enough reliable evidence or if there are contradictions or if there are some extremes.

[Hair|Trigger]

ok, first of all I didn't say I had read the bible, but I know that video you posted is flawed and totally false.

Don't you see how obvious it is though, nearly every argument he makes is flawed, for example, Jesus told the ruler to sell his worldly possessions, that does NOT apply to modern life, this is ONE particular case that happened 2000 years ago.  The whole point of that was to put emphasis on generosity, giving to the less fortunate. It is not commanded that before you go to heaven you need to sell all your stuff to those less fortunate, in fact, he has a lot of nerve to say you need to do this, or any of the other cases to get into heaven.  either that, or his sight falls short of the entire point all together.

Hey, it's fair, if he gets to make a huge assumption based on other smaller irrelevant things, so do I.  I say the video is false.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

He was basically just making the point that the man's possessions were more important han anything else to him. He probably wouldn't have actually made him sell them.

@STM: If you'd read the verses around that for context, he's not literally saying "hate your family". He's saying you have to consider God more important. Most 'contradictions' you see could be easily explained if the people using them actually cared if they were true or not, rather than using them as a quick fix.

To clarify; I'm not a Christian, I just heard most of these arguments when I was, and know firsthand that having outdated proof used against you doesn't convince you of anything. All misinformation does is convince the other side that "if that's all they can say against me, then I must be right".

[STM1993]

Don't you see how obvious it is though, nearly every argument he makes is flawed, for example, Jesus told the ruler to sell his worldly possessions, that does NOT apply to modern life, this is ONE particular case that happened 2000 years ago.  The whole point of that was to put emphasis on generosity, giving to the less fortunate. It is not commanded that before you go to heaven you need to sell all your stuff to those less fortunate, in fact, he has a lot of nerve to say you need to do this, or any of the other cases to get into heaven.  either that, or his sight falls short of the entire point all together.

Hey, it's fair, if he gets to make a huge assumption based on other smaller irrelevant things, so do I.  I say the video is false.

He was basically just making the point that the man's possessions were more important han anything else to him. He probably wouldn't have actually made him sell them.

@STM: If you'd read the verses around that for context, he's not literally saying "hate your family". He's saying you have to consider God more important. Most 'contradictions' you see could be easily explained if the people using them actually cared if they were true or not, rather than using them as a quick fix.

Ahh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

The bible can get really confusing because of lots of hidden messages that needs to be inferred from rather than taken literally word for word, plus it's difficult to actually not miss out a single detail in a book with so many words/details @_@

I better start reading it more often, finish reading it, get a better picture and consult a good friend (who's extremely devoted to Christianity and knows his religion really well, but he's not the type who forces you to do stuff etc) before I say anything more about religion.