Israel and Palestine.

[ElephantHunter]

@Slashnoob: Like Farah said, just because Israel doesn't blatantly wipe Palestine off the map does not mean Israel is innocent. There were other options. Israel chose to ignore them.

Either way, this particular situation calls for closer inspection. The evidence against Israel seems incriminating, and those responsible should at least be tried. Although Israel is not a signatory of the International Criminal Court, citizens of Israel can still be called to trial if they commit war crimes in another country (such as Palestine.)

[N. Escalona]

i'm an Israeli jew, i will refrain from posting my opinions because it will immediatly be considered a 'vile zionist propoganda'.

I hope you do post your thoughts - we're all intelligent enough to see past the messenger I hope.

Israel violated international law in their attack on Gaza, and those responsible for war crimes should be brought to justice. There are some actions you simply must not take in war. Of course, the people of Israel know that too well.

they go off and use this excuse to kill thousands of people! seriously the intentions of the israeli government isn't relevant

International law isn't the standard here, just war theory is. Actually, never mind that. Common sense applied to the facts you have stated suffices to form the opposite conclusion. Hamas has been continually bombing Israel, causing a very slow rate of death. Hamas is not going to stop. Israel calculates that a strike designed to cripple Hamas' ability to fight back could easily take 1000 civilian lives. What do you want them to do, wait until Hamas has killed exactly 1000 people and then launch the assault? The correct solution is to launch the assault now, stop the attacks on your country, and then leave, all the while trying to minimize civilian deaths. The correct solution is to take many more lives than Hamas has, in order to minimize future deaths.

hamas are as much to blame for this than the israeli government is. this isn't a question of supporting the lesser of two evils - the only true victims here are the people of palestine and israel

You are correct that no party here is innocent, although it's simplistic to say that one side is exactly as culpable as the other. Hamas has definitely provoked this particular conflict.

But this is true of every war you will ever see. No one is ever innocent. The decision of who to support is always a choice of the lesser of multiple evils. Israel/Hamas is no different. There is nothing special, in that sense, about this conflict.

@Slashnoob: Like Farah said, just because Israel doesn't blatantly wipe Palestine off the map does not mean Israel is innocent. There were other options. Israel chose to ignore them.

What other options could you be talking about here? I do not see that Israel had any alternatives other than sitting there while the missiles landed (i.e. what they've done for years).

[Dascoo]

I was going to post this in the beginning but I wanted to wait until someone mentioned the word "media"

Palestinians should be greatful they're not getting bombed by a small yield nuclear weapon.

[pavliko]

anyway since Israelis and Arabs exist they fight each other...if you destroy one side the opposite side will find someone else to hurt because it needs the other side..
anyway what i say is it would be better if there were no Israel or any of those Gaza or what ever.

[Dascoo]

Maybe the Arabs shouldn't have done such a pisspoor performance militarily against the Israeli's in the last 50 years.

And then kick almost a million jews out of there countries in protest.

[ElephantHunter]

@N. Escalona: Alternatives to crimes against humanity? Preferably cease-fire and negotiations. Somebody doesn't read the news.

[Dascoo]

Preferably cease-fire and negotiations

DOHOHOHOHO

These people vowed to wipe Israel off the map. How long did the other cease-fires last?

[ElephantHunter]

Diplomacy is a rough road, but it saves lives.

[Farah]

Preferably cease-fire and negotiations

DOHOHOHOHO

These people vowed to wipe Israel off the map. How long did the other cease-fires last?

try looking up martin luther king or malcolm x post-nation of islam.
it works, but takes years upon years, and can only happen without this fucking hamas' hold over palestinian views. unity within the oppresed is their only true weapon.

[Dascoo]

Yeah I know because a huge majority of the United States Black population vowed to destroy America through half a dozen wars just like the Arabs. These two conflicts are comparable.

[Farah]

nation of islam

it is perfectly relevant.

[Dascoo]

nation of islam

it is perfectly relevant.

huge majority of the United States Black population

No u.

-----------------

Completely unrelated to the argument: Israel and the Semitic world will have to suffer more before peace can be achieved.

[Farah]

proportions are different, but still relevant because nation of islam's real campaign lasted ~5 years, but hamas/anti-jew and anti-arab propaganda has been going on for ~50 years, and the hate still getting stronger.

[N. Escalona]

@N. Escalona: Alternatives to crimes against humanity? Preferably cease-fire and negotiations. Somebody doesn't read the news.

That's what Israel has been trying for years. Until recently, there was a ceasefire--until Hamas broke it. Consistently, Israel is provoked by hostile nations and waits longer than most other nations would, sticking strictly to diplomacy. Then a breaking point is reached and the hostiles invariably get pwned.

Describe what you mean by crimes against humanity.

I'm all for diplomacy--in fact, I take a more pacifistic view to war than most people I know. I'm also aware of the dangers of supporting Israel in everything it does. On the other hand, I support Israel's actions here. I would support the same actions by Hamas, if the two roles were reversed.

[GSx_Major]

(Israel broke the ceasefire in November...)

[ElephantHunter]

@N. Escalona: With this situation, crimes against humanity pertain to "atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government". Israeli military personnel could be prosecuted under international law. Even the United States has called for investigations. As a result, Israel has warned officers not to travel abroad.

[N. Escalona]

(Israel broke the ceasefire in November...)

my bad. After looking this up again it looks like you are right as far as I can tell.

@N. Escalona: With this situation, crimes against humanity pertain to "atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government". Israeli military personnel could be prosecuted under international law. Even the United States has called for investigations. As a result, Israel has warned officers not to travel abroad.

My question, then, is what are atrocities in this context?

Just for some perspective, here is an excerpt from an article dated a month ago quoting Nizer Rayan, a (now deceased) top Hamas military commander and illustrating what some in Hamas think the purpose of a ceasefire is.

There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."

[VijchtiDoodah]

Even the United States has called for investigations.

Investigations are usually a diplomatic stunts by politicians with ulterior motives. They're useful because just by hearing that an investigation is occurring, any person with even the slightest bias automatically assumes the investigated party is guilty without waiting for evidence of wrongdoing and the person calling for an investigation appears to have outstanding moral character or at least appears to be doing something about a perceived problem.

[ElephantHunter]

@N. Escalona: Atrocities are actions shockingly cruel or inhumane.

This is no political stunt. Israel has already admitted to breaking international law by using phosphorous shells, a chemical weapon that burns through flesh. Beyond that, bombing the city of Gaza was a very questionable maneuver which many claim to be illegal.

[GSx_Major]

My question, then, is what are atrocities in this context?

I dunno, how about shooting unarmed children? Bombing schools and hospitals? Setting UN buildings on fire? Bombing as many innocent kids as armed enemies?

Seeing how Israel runs its wars these days, maybe this doesn't qualify as shockingly cruel or inhumane.