Halo: Soldat Evolved... Yea or Nay?

[gladiator2]

Last year, I created a Halo mod as Espadon was making his much anticipated Halo Legendary Trilogy. I named it Halo: Soldat Evolved.

Esp locked it down 'cause he said the weapons were not completely original, even though they were highly editted... but enough of that.

Due to a lotta school work, I more or less abandoned that mod for a while. I came back to see if it could run with Esp's approval. After discussing it, he generously agreed to let me put up the weapons I based my work on (that were made by other modders), and then put up my own work, and let the Soldat community here decide if Halo: Soldat Evolved should run.

So, without further ado, here it is. Before and after:



If you'd like to read about Halo: Soldat Evolved, it's right here: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=31223.0

So, please have a look, and decide if you like the modified versions better.

Thanks.

[croat1gamer]

even if you used others work you still need to credit them, it doesnt matter the how edited they are, you still took them from someone else and didnt credit them

[SadistAtHeart]

The other thread was locked for a reason.

Locked.

[Espadon]

Unlocked. I'll write a note to reasons in our section, SAH.

Addon to gladiator's description: You guys are the jurors. If you feel his revisions are justifiable improvements, I'll let him reopen his mod thread. Otherwise it stays dead.

[Farah]

it looks more like he used the originals as references to his pixeling if anything.

[Espadon]

That's what he did. The question here is "Are the 'improvements' good enough to justify?"

His side of the argument is:

... Why restart from scratch, and take a long time to reproduce work that'll just end up looking like the original thing? Doesn't make sense. Look at it from this angle. In a perfect society, others build on the good work of their peers to make it even better. That's the whole idea with the Constitution. The only difference (in this subject) between Congress and us is that they're corrupt as sin. They'd rather bicker with opposing parties all day instead of work together to make what we've got better.

Basically, I just took a gfx, like the laser, improved the outline based on the Halo 3 booklet, improved the coloring based on the booklet, and published it. Say what you want about originality, but you've gotta admit some of them look excellent.

...

Gfx and sfx are my strength.

[gladiator2]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did.

[Espadon]

Revised image because you attributed the outlines you used to the wrong author. These are with correct references to SK's work.

[Mangled*]

I say no.

Espadon put a hell of a lot of work into his mod. Recolouring someone elses work is childsplay. The hard graft of making weapons is faithfully recreating the shape and contours of a weapon mixed together with using colour and shade correctly.

The way I see it is you would never have made this 'mod' if Espadon had released his already. I'm sure if he had released it you wouldn't have tried this. This is a big conflict of interest and you are essentially hijacking his masterpiece before it's finished.

I know how it feels, I've had at least three people trying to release content of my mod without permission. Let me tell you, if I was Espadon I wouldn't even give you the time of day.

Use your modified versions for yourself, but I can't see how you can justify releasing it since Espadon did the vast majority of the work. If he's happy (and I don't see how he should be) then I guess I can't argue.

If you're making a mod you should work from scratch. There's no skill in editting and you don't learn anything or develop any kind of drawing techniques from it either. The weapons are in Espadon's style, not in your style. You don't have a style.

[excruciator]

You know what, at least he released his.

[Boots]

Snap. And truth. And Burn. And this topix is useless.

[excruciator]

Is also quite funny how espadon is actively trying to moderate this thread. Hell if he put this much effort into all threads the forum would be a better place.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

EVERYONE FUCKING KNOWS IT WAS BASED OFF OF ESPADON'S WORK.

HE'S NOT SAYING IT WASN'T.

I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE.

Honestly, who are you trying to protect here? If this acts as a Halo supplement until Espadon releases his mod, then what does it matter? You people are being childish. And yeah, OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO LOOK SIMILAR. THEY'RE MAKING A MOD OF THE SAME GAME. His shading is completely his own, and he has changed the outlines enough to the point that complaining he used them as a base is just being petty. Last I knew, no one's getting any money from all the downloads you get. He's not stealing anyone's business. I could care less if he ripped Espadon's entire mod and made a few improvements as long as he didn't try to claim it was his own work, because in the end he's just saving time for the people who'd do the same thing for themselves. Mangled, you said "use it for yourself". What's the point in that? If someone, ANYONE, enjoys using this mod, then who is he hurting by posting it? Not Espadon, that's for sure. You people have made any imitation so taboo that anyone with a perfectly reasonable argument for using extremely edited material from a mod that isn't even out yet a thing to be locked and shunned before anyone with half a brain can get a word in. At least, until Espadon unlocked it. Yeah, ESPADON. The only guy who seems to have any sense here is the one who by your logic should be the most horrified.

That should tell you something.

[Espadon]

Really a ton of blind angst there, Frunk. The first image I conjure up was that German kid who wanted to play UT haha

 Anyways, the issue here is that 'improvements' were made and released initially without any consideration given to the original creators. What I don't want to see is Soldat modding becoming a frankenfest because 'it's okay to just keep mucking around with already existing material.' For example, the modern weapons scene constantly are doing the same weapons, yet there are distinctive styles going on there.
Without going too far into debating where the original modder's right to his own work ends and where the community begins, this here mostly is an extension of a debate we had on PM: Is the work really improving upon the foundation such that it justified being attributed as 'original work?' To that, Frunk, please be sure to do your research before replying, which is something you certainly keep forgetting to do.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

How can you acknowledge the existence of different styles and then turn around and say that the real issue is whether is improves on what he based his weapons on? Now that the problem of originality was solved perfectly well in his first post, you're getting into the realms of quality control. Are you really saying that the only reason you're considering locking this is because it might not be as good as yours*?

And even if originality was an issue with his past mod, his new designs are different to the point that locking it on the basis of plagiarism borders on laughable.

Hey look, no all caps in this one. Maybe that will stop every point I'm trying to make from getting past you this time

*or whatever Halo mod his was loosely based on.

[excruciator]

Is the work really improving upon the foundation such that it justified being attributed as 'original work?'

I'm gonna say this again.
He's releasing it, and that is a HUGE improvement.

I'm also gonna say this. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
So try and appreciate it instead of trying to lock the thread alright?

[Mangled*]

I think if gladiator can 'improve' other peoples work he could probably manage creating stuff from scratch. It's not an improvement in my opinion though.

It seems like the real issue here is the fact that it is Espadons work and Espadon moderates this section of the forum. If it was anybody else there would be no question. The general consensus is that if you're using/modifying content from someone's mod you need to get their approval. If they approve, it's okay. If they don't, it's not okay. It should be down to the original author.

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

A quick word on the poll, it should have just been yes or no. Options 3 and 4 are useless.

[Espadon]

For one, removal based on plagiarism is a tradition carried from the previous custodians of this section. I am for one in accordance with this because it protects and rewards people who spend lots of time an energy on their work. Your perspective is understandable based on the fact that your process, Frunk, is a lot less labor-intensive [not talking about quality here]. However, that doesn't mean you are right to say that the people who choose to do it in a more labor-intensive manner shouldn't deserve some compensation for their time.

[excruciator]

It's not plagiarizing when the original author did not release whatever he/she created.

Right now is more like first come first serve.

[Espadon]

I'm not one to be spiteful so I'm all for reopening the thread in light of the fact the modding section is dead enough as it is. However, I feel responsible as the moderator here to set the right precedents. I'm concerned that keeping it open would violate the protection of original work too much and negate the wishes of some modders such as FMBM. Disregarding if they are right or wrong in guarding their own work, I think it's necessary to at least respect them.

Please also remember the fact that while some of my graphics are adopted in here, half of it is also Serial K!ller's work. I don't think he disapproves, but I do wish to make note that this isn't a personal issue that's in debate here.