Halo: Soldat Evolved... Yea or Nay?

[gladiator2]

Last year, I created a Halo mod as Espadon was making his much anticipated Halo Legendary Trilogy. I named it Halo: Soldat Evolved.

Esp locked it down 'cause he said the weapons were not completely original, even though they were highly editted... but enough of that.

Due to a lotta school work, I more or less abandoned that mod for a while. I came back to see if it could run with Esp's approval. After discussing it, he generously agreed to let me put up the weapons I based my work on (that were made by other modders), and then put up my own work, and let the Soldat community here decide if Halo: Soldat Evolved should run.

So, without further ado, here it is. Before and after:



If you'd like to read about Halo: Soldat Evolved, it's right here: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=31223.0

So, please have a look, and decide if you like the modified versions better.

Thanks.

[croat1gamer]

even if you used others work you still need to credit them, it doesnt matter the how edited they are, you still took them from someone else and didnt credit them

[SadistAtHeart]

The other thread was locked for a reason.

Locked.

[Espadon]

Unlocked. I'll write a note to reasons in our section, SAH.

Addon to gladiator's description: You guys are the jurors. If you feel his revisions are justifiable improvements, I'll let him reopen his mod thread. Otherwise it stays dead.

[Farah]

it looks more like he used the originals as references to his pixeling if anything.

[Espadon]

That's what he did. The question here is "Are the 'improvements' good enough to justify?"

His side of the argument is:

... Why restart from scratch, and take a long time to reproduce work that'll just end up looking like the original thing? Doesn't make sense. Look at it from this angle. In a perfect society, others build on the good work of their peers to make it even better. That's the whole idea with the Constitution. The only difference (in this subject) between Congress and us is that they're corrupt as sin. They'd rather bicker with opposing parties all day instead of work together to make what we've got better.

Basically, I just took a gfx, like the laser, improved the outline based on the Halo 3 booklet, improved the coloring based on the booklet, and published it. Say what you want about originality, but you've gotta admit some of them look excellent.

...

Gfx and sfx are my strength.

[gladiator2]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did.

[Espadon]

Revised image because you attributed the outlines you used to the wrong author. These are with correct references to SK's work.

[Mangled*]

I say no.

Espadon put a hell of a lot of work into his mod. Recolouring someone elses work is childsplay. The hard graft of making weapons is faithfully recreating the shape and contours of a weapon mixed together with using colour and shade correctly.

The way I see it is you would never have made this 'mod' if Espadon had released his already. I'm sure if he had released it you wouldn't have tried this. This is a big conflict of interest and you are essentially hijacking his masterpiece before it's finished.

I know how it feels, I've had at least three people trying to release content of my mod without permission. Let me tell you, if I was Espadon I wouldn't even give you the time of day.

Use your modified versions for yourself, but I can't see how you can justify releasing it since Espadon did the vast majority of the work. If he's happy (and I don't see how he should be) then I guess I can't argue.

If you're making a mod you should work from scratch. There's no skill in editting and you don't learn anything or develop any kind of drawing techniques from it either. The weapons are in Espadon's style, not in your style. You don't have a style.

[excruciator]

You know what, at least he released his.

[Boots]

Snap. And truth. And Burn. And this topix is useless.

[excruciator]

Is also quite funny how espadon is actively trying to moderate this thread. Hell if he put this much effort into all threads the forum would be a better place.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

EVERYONE FUCKING KNOWS IT WAS BASED OFF OF ESPADON'S WORK.

HE'S NOT SAYING IT WASN'T.

I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE.

Honestly, who are you trying to protect here? If this acts as a Halo supplement until Espadon releases his mod, then what does it matter? You people are being childish. And yeah, OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO LOOK SIMILAR. THEY'RE MAKING A MOD OF THE SAME GAME. His shading is completely his own, and he has changed the outlines enough to the point that complaining he used them as a base is just being petty. Last I knew, no one's getting any money from all the downloads you get. He's not stealing anyone's business. I could care less if he ripped Espadon's entire mod and made a few improvements as long as he didn't try to claim it was his own work, because in the end he's just saving time for the people who'd do the same thing for themselves. Mangled, you said "use it for yourself". What's the point in that? If someone, ANYONE, enjoys using this mod, then who is he hurting by posting it? Not Espadon, that's for sure. You people have made any imitation so taboo that anyone with a perfectly reasonable argument for using extremely edited material from a mod that isn't even out yet a thing to be locked and shunned before anyone with half a brain can get a word in. At least, until Espadon unlocked it. Yeah, ESPADON. The only guy who seems to have any sense here is the one who by your logic should be the most horrified.

That should tell you something.

[Espadon]

Really a ton of blind angst there, Frunk. The first image I conjure up was that German kid who wanted to play UT haha

 Anyways, the issue here is that 'improvements' were made and released initially without any consideration given to the original creators. What I don't want to see is Soldat modding becoming a frankenfest because 'it's okay to just keep mucking around with already existing material.' For example, the modern weapons scene constantly are doing the same weapons, yet there are distinctive styles going on there.
Without going too far into debating where the original modder's right to his own work ends and where the community begins, this here mostly is an extension of a debate we had on PM: Is the work really improving upon the foundation such that it justified being attributed as 'original work?' To that, Frunk, please be sure to do your research before replying, which is something you certainly keep forgetting to do.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

How can you acknowledge the existence of different styles and then turn around and say that the real issue is whether is improves on what he based his weapons on? Now that the problem of originality was solved perfectly well in his first post, you're getting into the realms of quality control. Are you really saying that the only reason you're considering locking this is because it might not be as good as yours*?

And even if originality was an issue with his past mod, his new designs are different to the point that locking it on the basis of plagiarism borders on laughable.

Hey look, no all caps in this one. Maybe that will stop every point I'm trying to make from getting past you this time

*or whatever Halo mod his was loosely based on.

[excruciator]

Is the work really improving upon the foundation such that it justified being attributed as 'original work?'

I'm gonna say this again.
He's releasing it, and that is a HUGE improvement.

I'm also gonna say this. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
So try and appreciate it instead of trying to lock the thread alright?

[Mangled*]

I think if gladiator can 'improve' other peoples work he could probably manage creating stuff from scratch. It's not an improvement in my opinion though.

It seems like the real issue here is the fact that it is Espadons work and Espadon moderates this section of the forum. If it was anybody else there would be no question. The general consensus is that if you're using/modifying content from someone's mod you need to get their approval. If they approve, it's okay. If they don't, it's not okay. It should be down to the original author.

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

A quick word on the poll, it should have just been yes or no. Options 3 and 4 are useless.

[Espadon]

For one, removal based on plagiarism is a tradition carried from the previous custodians of this section. I am for one in accordance with this because it protects and rewards people who spend lots of time an energy on their work. Your perspective is understandable based on the fact that your process, Frunk, is a lot less labor-intensive [not talking about quality here]. However, that doesn't mean you are right to say that the people who choose to do it in a more labor-intensive manner shouldn't deserve some compensation for their time.

[excruciator]

It's not plagiarizing when the original author did not release whatever he/she created.

Right now is more like first come first serve.

[Espadon]

I'm not one to be spiteful so I'm all for reopening the thread in light of the fact the modding section is dead enough as it is. However, I feel responsible as the moderator here to set the right precedents. I'm concerned that keeping it open would violate the protection of original work too much and negate the wishes of some modders such as FMBM. Disregarding if they are right or wrong in guarding their own work, I think it's necessary to at least respect them.

Please also remember the fact that while some of my graphics are adopted in here, half of it is also Serial K!ller's work. I don't think he disapproves, but I do wish to make note that this isn't a personal issue that's in debate here.

[excruciator]

I think gladiator respect your work. I don't think the problem is about respect.
You did spend a lot of time on that mod and you do not want that to be "taken". And we get that. However, in any shape or form, he did not plagiarize it, simply because it was never released.


EDIT:

Ohh FMBM(whatever his name is) is not so active. You are the sole ruler of this mighty kingdom.

EDIT:

Even if he tried to take the credit for all work, which he didn't, Everyone still knows that you made the shapes and he twicked it.(The truth is out and he can't change that) If he succeeded, It's a thumbs up for you too, since you contributed to it.

However if you locked this, we(me at least) would all assume that you took so much effort to moderate this thread simply to save your own ass(selfishness), and we(I at least) will all be given a much clearer insight of how uptight you are when comes to even borrowing littlest of your stuff.(not a great quality)

[Espadon]

I'm going to say again that I don't really care that much if my work is taken, really. Don't forget about SK's work that WAS released and infringed upon. Despite the fact that SK doesn't have anything to say against this case, can you say that this action of releasing a mod that is heavily based on preexisting mods without prior conferring with the original creators is justified in any way? Gladiator2's argument [also made in the past by Dairy] about improvement is under consideration, but how far can that go before it hurts the original intentions of the original mod author? Infringement is an issue that will come back in the future, and how we deal with it now can determine how we take on future cases. I want to set good examples here so that things can regulate themselves well enough.

This is not just an issue about this specific mod in front of us. This is not about HLT; rather, I am using this as a case study, so keep the debate about concepts and not lame personal issues.

Excruciator, all you have done is consume the products of others' labor. How much can you attest to the effort spent creating a full featured mod from scratch? [Frunk if you are half as smart as I think you are you will not try to contrast the question with the bolded statement]

However if you locked this, we(me at least) would all assume that you took so much effort to moderate this thread simply to save your own ass(selfishness), and we(I at least) will all be given a much clearer insight of how uptight you are when comes to even borrowing littlest of your stuff.(not a great quality)

It was my idea in the first place for this discussion. I am very much considering re-opening the original mod topic since there's nothing really from either SK [AFAIK] or I against his express use of the graphics. The original topic's lock was done because of the type of action, and not because of actual infringement. Subtle difference, but it does matter.

However, I want to make clear that any further encroachment upon the security of modders who wish their work to not be touched will not be tolerated, and any further modification-'improvements' by gladiator2 must be done with prior consent and credits to the original authors upon release. This will also extend to all other mods.

You can argue all you want about how modders like FMBM are too selfish, but I believe that it is almost a duty that I see that their wishes are honored.

[Boots]

Lock the thread all ready, you havn't proven shit..

I agree with you both tbh, but I do believe this mod isn't 100% his own, so yeah, punishments?

[Lord Frunkamunch]

^Meh, if he does lock it no one will prove shit. All locking it does is shove the issue aside until the next time it comes up.

how far can that go before it hurts the original intentions of the original mod author?

Honestly? Pretty far. Short of claiming the work as their own, nothing they take is of any harm to the original author. It shouldn't necessarily be done that way, but the act of releasing a mod is one of giving to the community, and as I've said before, if one person likes a new rendition better, then technically no one was hurt.

[Frunk if you are half as smart as I think you are you will not try to contrast the question with the bolded statement]

No, my side has been a rant against the idiocy of the community in general.

[excruciator]

You can argue all you want about how modders like FMBM are too selfish, but I believe that it is almost a duty that I see that their wishes are honored.

Sounds very much like an excuse to me.

An modification would not hurt the original author because is modified. Technically he is not even stealing your work.

I still don't get how can you pin people for modifying something that does not technically exist.

[-Skykanden-]

Hey really you made 2 mods and 2 copied ones.
IMO it's clear that they are copied without credit, even if they are edited i can still catching the original outline, and I think that you shouldn't do it, because IS NOT YOUR WORK

[Xxypher]

Nice looking MOD. I would love some Halo styled servers with low defense, but you heal after a bit.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Hey really you made 2 mods and 2 copied ones.
IMO it's clear that they are copied without credit, even if they are edited i can still catching the original outline, and I think that you shouldn't do it, because IS NOT YOUR WORK

It's another Halo mod. Some similarity is to be expected. This time around, they're different to the point where if he hadn't said they were based off of someone else's work, you'd never know. Especially the outlines. When it of the same game, you can never know. I've had several of my guns turn out almost exactly like someone else's to a few pixels, because we used the same base picture. It's not grounds for locking. Period.

Plus...

The original topic's lock was done because of the type of action, and not because of actual infringement. Subtle difference, but it does matter.

That's no longer an issue in this update.

[finally on topic]

Could you post a better screenshot? You really can't see much detail in a bad quality .jpeg like the one you've posted.

[Boots]

Brb guys, making a halo mod to upset espadon.

[scarface09]

I don't understand, why can't people just add more guns to mods, instead of the regular 10 + 4 secondaries. Be more creative, script more and better guns, it will make soldat modding a lot more fun and a variety of choice.

[Boots]

I don't understand, why can't people just add more guns to mods, instead of the regular 10 + 4 secondaries. Be more creative, script more and better guns, it will make soldat modding a lot more fun and a variety of choice.

because your face burnt.


no seriously, it's not possible. its like saying "why don't we add vehicullzzz lolpop"

[croat1gamer]

I don't understand, why can't people just add more guns to mods, instead of the regular 10 + 4 secondaries. Be more creative, script more and better guns, it will make soldat modding a lot more fun and a variety of choice.

because your face burnt.


no seriously, it's not possible. its like saying "why don't we add vehicullzzz lolpop"

i think he meant make more weapons, and then the user can choose which weapon to use

the most full modifications have more weapons, you just use lord ivahns program, or do it like skykanden
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=32557.0

[Espadon]

Your smartass answers aren't needed, Bootz.

Hey really you made 2 mods and 2 copied ones.
IMO it's clear that they are copied without credit, even if they are edited i can still catching the original outline, and I think that you shouldn't do it, because IS NOT YOUR WORK

This time around, they're different to the point where if he hadn't said they were based off of someone else's work, you'd never know. Especially the outlines.

Which is also kind of a reason why I prompted the poll since you can never be sure when the local self-proclaimed devil's advocate says something just to be different. Come now, Frunk:

I know you meant well but as you can see below, the commonalities shared between your gfx and others' are just too close and so I'm going to have to remove the link and lock this until you can come back with original graphics, or permission from their respective authors. The ones I've marked I'm sure aren't the only ones made from hijacked graphics, so don't try to slip by.



Index:

1 Spartan Laser [HLT]
2 Energy Sword [Halo 3.5]
3 LAAG ingame [Halo 3.5]
4 Energy Sword ingame [Halo 3.5]

Images on right hand side are from Halo:SE

...Didn't use anybody's graphics, mate. I may have loosely based mine on the work of others, but all of my graphics are created from scratch.... and they took a long time.


G2

Read the original thread before posting, Frunk.

[Espadon]

No, you know what, nevermind.

This content was originally posted by Meandor
---
Of course, stolen/ripped/edited mods aren't allowed.
You can rip and edit, as long as you don't claim as your work some images you found on google and/or resized, and give credit to their original author/source.
If you want to edit a mod of another member of the community ask for his permission first

Rules are rules. You guys aren't worth being nice to. The more reasonable I try to be the more smartassery I get back.