A quick bit on spawn killing.

[Shady]

I'm not sure what is happening in 1.5.0 to deal with it but right now as it stands, Spawn killing is definitely a problem. It's not the fact that people are camping your base waiting for you to spawn either. It's the fact that whoever is going to spawn kill has all the information to do so and the likely chance to execute it all the time they are doing it. This isn't a whine as I have dealt with spawn killing over the years. This is just mainly how I look at helping to stop it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with attacking Soldat players who are spawning. I do believe, however, that it is wrong for a spawn attacking player to have an advantage over a player who is spawning most of the time due to how the entire process of spawning occurs.

And don't say that there is nothing wrong with it either. I've been playing for 6 years and seeing an instance in a game where someone who has been playing as long as me competitively who cannot avoid being spawn killed 8 times in a row during a clan war is just a joke.

Right now I believe the biggest flaws within the design of the spawning mechanic in Soldat is the initial point of the player who is spawning is shown.

This gives the spawn attacking player ample time to strategize and execute an unavoidable spawnkill with ease. All you do is see where the spawn point is, see which direction the spawning player is moving, ready your m79, knife, or other bullet/nade combo that kills in one shot, calculate in your head when he will be able to be killed and then shoot, while the entire time the spawning player could do nothing but move a few inches in a desperate attempt to avoid a very likely chance of death.

My belief is that this can be dealt with by the initial point of the spawning player being hidden. If you are choosing a weapon, you should be able to do so while still being hidden and then after moving, you would fade more quickly into the life of Soldat after about half a second. If you don't move in 3 seconds, you will automatically fade in. The end result would look like a Soldat fading into life quickly while already moving instead of spawning in a stationary position.

I believe this alteration of the spawning mechanic would greatly help spawning players because it would give the spawn killer less information to judge how to kill them and the spawner more distance to reposition themselves. This would also help spawning players to avoid spawn nades.

I am also open to all feedback so please feel free to post your thoughts as I'm sure this isn't the first time this issue has been brought up.

[Xxypher]

Or just allow the people who spawned to have a few seconds of invulnerability.

[Shady]

Or just allow the people who spawned to have a few seconds of invulnerability.

They already do. Invulnerability itself does not solve the problem.

[iDante]

Spawning really isn't a problem. The problem of taking too long picking a weapon can be righted by just picking your gun in the several seconds you have after dying. The second or so of invincibility after spawning is more than enough to run away or prepare to kill stuff.

I guess I'm biased as the only soldat games I've played in the last few months are gathers, but even from my memories of pubs there wasn't a problem with spawning.

[Rai-Dei]

Weapon picking time has nothing to do with it in more competitive games. It is a pretty big problem I'd like to see it fixed.

[L[0ne]R]

Spawning really isn't a problem. The problem of taking too long picking a weapon can be righted by just picking your gun in the several seconds you have after dying. The second or so of invincibility after spawning is more than enough to run away or prepare to kill stuff.

I guess I'm biased as the only soldat games I've played in the last few months are gathers, but even from my memories of pubs there wasn't a problem with spawning.

Unfortunately, it's a bit worse than you think.
The problem doesn't lie in just picking the weapon fast enough (many times you can even pick it while still dead). Even invulnerability at the start doesn't always help. You only get enough invulnerability to pick a weapon and move a bit (but not far enough to avoid grenades, which often detonate right when your invulnerability wears off). If grenades go off all around you, it's still extremely hard do avoid dying.
Another issue would be spawnpoints placement on some maps. Players would spawn in mid-air, in a room, dead end or a corridor, not being able to move around much, while spawcampers usually have a better position and supplies nearby.

In my opinion, there should be extra measures against spawnkilling. I understand that sometimes it's an important part of strategy, but there are people who spawnkill simply because they enjoy it or want to get some easy kills. "Spawnkilling is avoidable", as many pros say, but I'm sure they just don't consider newbies and even many average players who are not skilled enough to deal with spawnkillers.

Another solution would be not respawning the player until he's done picking a weapon and giving him invulnerability and/or invisibility until he moves or shoots (though it would be an issue with one-shots, because player might just stay invisible and invulnerable until he's ready to shoot).

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Great post, Shady, you have really good points, examples and suggestions.
I hope now spawnkilling issues will finally be taken more seriously.

[KYnetiK]

The game mechanics of it cannot really be changed too drastically to avoid the problem. Permutate a game how many times you want, it will happen in a world where people want to be a pain in the ass.

The idea of not physically respawning until a weapon has been chosen will help to a degree, I like this idea, however it wont prevent spawning because the spawning positions are entirely static. It doesnt matter whether I know the remaining spawntime of x number of players or not, Ill shoot when I see one appear. Perhaps one measure is that a frag wont add to the score until x seconds after a player has spawned. If a person is whoring themselves for a score, they will wait. If they just want to be a pain they wont, and then their status as a complete smeghead has been decided, and people can vote.

The fact that spawnkilling has such a viscious stigma attached to it means that the ego of the perpetrator does not benefit. They only serve to be an irritance, and this will bear on their reputation as unskillful. With enough name&shame, people think twice.

[SpiltCoffee]

Slightly increase the invulnerability time when you spawn, and allow the player to use their weapons during this time. Should help to combat it.

[STM1993]

I would support being able to attack during the invulnerability.

Alternatively, which is a not so good method, the mappers will be doing this job.

One way for INF maps for Red team - reds don't appear in constant places and the area does not allow for camping (inf_Fortress, and the other spawn site in the sky for red for inf_Abel). For blues, the spawn site should be scattered around the defense base over a larger area (inf_Insustrial)

[stt]]

great post,

i immediate thought of dropdown2... pretty much nothing you can do there.

[Sappy]

You can't really prevent spawnkilling in this game without taking measures that would affect gameplay.
The invulnerability time as of right now is just fine. Any more would result in scenarios where a defending team would simply clear their base of attackers while being invulnerable.

From a competitive point of view, I see spawnkilling as a valid tactic - you have no right to complain when you could just as easily do it to the other team.

Of course, more often than not there are some people in pubs who spawnkill lesser skilled players just to be a dick - there's nothing you can do about it but go on. That's how things are.

[KYnetiK]

Yes, for the most part, you can only put on your big girl shoes and deal with it.

I know what its like to play a game, and be 'in the zone'. You will instinctively shoot at anything possibly conceivable as threatening.

Its one thing if the spawnkiller was in the heat of battle and trying to clear his path.
Its another when you sit in wait to ambush the spawnee the moment their invulnerability wears off.

THAT is what pisses people off.

As far as Soldat gallantry goes,  if I see someone spawn next to me, I will [try to] wait for them to start moving/shoot at me before I attack them. Other times, I will simply plant a nademine a few smurf-feet in front of them and flee.

On one hand, I feel the  spirit of combat and want my opponent to gain their bearings before I challenge them. On the other, you want to disable the immediate threat before they become a real threat - what were they going to do, not shoot at me when they could? You shoot first to survive.

Its the paradox of Survival vs Honour.

Personally, I prefer honour, because that shows respect to your peers, and to win means something more...

[Blue-ninja]

My real problem is, I wish I could throw the knife while I am invulnerable. I just always end up dropping the knife because of the latency and getting killed by the sawers.

Increasing the invulnerability time slightly, and getting some maps which makes it difficult to spawnkill are both equally good ideas.

[LtKillroy]

Or just allow the people who spawned to have a few seconds of invulnerability.

They already do. Invulnerability itself does not solve the problem.

That's because you can't shoot when you're invulnerable. I always thought the easy way to fix it was 2-3 seconds of shooting invincibility. Some maps are worse than others (inf_Rise comes to mind)

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Yeah, there was never any point to making the spawners unable to fire during the invulnerability. That should have been removed long ago. Something to prevent spawning in a crowded area would be good in deathmatches, too.

[L[0ne]R]

Yeah, there was never any point to making the spawners unable to fire during the invulnerability. That should have been removed long ago. Something to prevent spawning in a crowded area would be good in deathmatches, too.

Inability to shoot is there for a good reason. It's not fair to be killed by an invulnerable enemy only because his spawn is too close to the battlefield. I don't support the idea of being able to shoot while invulnerable.

The main problem with invulnerability is the fact that most of it is spent on getting out of your spawn on some maps.
For example, on ctf_B2B it's more than possible to avoid spawnkilling - you spawn on right on the ground, above the flag and far enough for enemy grenades to not reach you.
On inf_Outpost, on red team your invulnerability wears off even before you get out of "safe zone" - you spawn in a vertical dead-end, and it takes about 2-3 seconds for you to reach the ground, where you end up in a cave with again, only one way out.

[Keldorn]

In my opinion, spawn killing is a legitimate tactic. Unless of course it is done to the point in which the entire other team can't get anywhere.

As for the few seconds for invunerability:
How long would it last?
Would you be visible?
Would you be able to charge to the enemy's base in this time?

And as for the flash of colour before you spawn:
It can also give you an idea of where your teammates are.
It works BOTH ways.
Tell's you where YOU are going to spawn.

Also, try out survival.

[STM1993]

I prefer the system of spawning like in Survival. The only flaw is that the period of time of invulnerability for survival (5 seconds) is too long for small maps, such as Ctf_Ash, where you'd have easily reached the middle of the map from one end. Therefore, a way is to make the spawn time adjustable by map settings. Unfortunately, it seems that the map format isn't going to be changed anytime soon.

The other alternative is for the map makers to create a map whereby spawnkilling is more difficult. Look at the red spawn in inf_Outpost - it's so easy to spawnkill/spawncamp, and unlike inf_Abel, that's the only place you can spawn and get out of.

[SDFilm]

I do hope that this thread stays on the subject of spawnkilling in CTF, as spawnkilling in Deathmatch is completely justified, yet some people still complain about it as if they wouldn't have shot the person back in return for having mercy.

As for spawnkilling in CTF- I think it's fine as long as you don't abuse it (staying in their base specifically to keep on killing them).

[Rook_PL]

Maybe changing our beloved spawn-points to zone of equal probability of spawn would save the problem? In team matches spawner would never know where in that area a player will appear, making spawn kill more difficult and on deathmatches this zone could be as big as the map itself.