1.5.0d Beta Weapons Discussion

[STM1993]

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=32997
The new Beta is released, this time with the weapon mod ready for action! Download it at that link and try it out!

This topic will be the discussion of the new weapons balance.

Things to confirm:
N/A

Weapon.ini stats:
// Changes from 1.4.2 -> 1.5
// Deagles      dmg +2, reload -4
// HK MP5       dmg +1, bink +11
// Ak           dmg -1, bink +9
// Steyr        dmg +1, ammo -5, bink +3
// Spas         speed +1, ammo +1
// Ruger        dmg -6, reload -10, bink -10
// M79          --
// Barret       fireinterval -15
// Minimi       moveacc -1, bink +5
// Minigun      dmg +1, fireinterval -1, bink +3, startup -5
// Socom        dmg +3
// Knife        dmg -10000
// Chainsaw     reload -30
// LAW          reload -60, startup -4

Summary:
The autos are all buffed (except AK, which has a very minor nerf of -1 damage) - self-bink is slowly taken away.
The MP5 no longer has any self-bink.
The Minimi is a lot more accurate, especially if you fire it rapidly rather than in short bursts.
The Ruger's 2-hit kill effectiveness is greatly reduced, which means less range. From about just half of your screen away, 3 torso shots are needed to kill.
All secondaries (except knife, which has a damage reduction which affects its maximum 1-hit-kill range) are buffed.

The 75% bullet push has been implemented. It's a big difference (especially to Spas and MP5 and Aug), try it out!
The M79 still has muzzle velocity.
The minigun's pushback is strong enough to lift you into the air instead of just hovering.
The Barrett can only be scoped after waiting for 240 ticks, not 225 ticks.

Code: [Select]

[USSOCOM]
Damage=174
FireInterval=12
Ammo=12
ReloadTime=65
Speed=180
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Desert Eagles]
Damage=180
FireInterval=23
Ammo=7
ReloadTime=90
Speed=190
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[HK MP5]
Damage=103
FireInterval=6
Ammo=30
ReloadTime=105
Speed=189
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Ak-74]
Damage=102
FireInterval=10
Ammo=40
ReloadTime=150
Speed=240
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-7
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Steyr AUG]
Damage=74
FireInterval=7
Ammo=25
ReloadTime=115
Speed=260
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-19
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Spas-12]
Damage=122
Fireinterval=32
Ammo=8
ReloadTime=175
Speed=139
BulletStyle=3
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Ruger 77]
Damage=246
FireInterval=40
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=90
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[M79]
Damage=165000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=180
Speed=107
BulletStyle=4
StartUpTime=0
Bink=40
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[Barret M82A1]
Damage=495
FireInterval=225
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=300
Speed=550
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=25
Bink=100
MovementAcc=7
Recoil=0

[FN Minimi]
Damage=85
FireInterval=9
Ammo=50
ReloadTime=250
Speed=270
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-7
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[XM214 Minigun]
Damage=51
FireInterval=3
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=366
Speed=290
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=45
Bink=-3
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Flamer]
Damage=1900
FireInterval=6
Ammo=200
ReloadTime=5
Speed=105
BulletStyle=5
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Rambo Bow]
Damage=1200
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=25
Speed=210
BulletStyle=7
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Flamed Arrows]
Damage=800
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=39
Speed=180
BulletStyle=8
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Combat Knife]
Damage=215000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=60
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Chainsaw]
Damage=2100
FireInterval=2
Ammo=150
ReloadTime=60
Speed=76
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[M72 LAW]
Damage=150000
FireInterval=30
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=420
Speed=230
BulletStyle=12
StartUpTime=17
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Punch]
Damage=33000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=50
BulletStyle=6
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Grenade]
Damage=150000
FireInterval=80
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=20
Speed=50
BulletStyle=2
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Stationary Gun]
Damage=180
FireInterval=10
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=366
Speed=360
BulletStyle=14
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

Please note:
For REALISTIC balance, in terms of weapon.ini, there are no changes except for the AK-74, which has -5 ammo (so it has 35 ammo instead of 40).



This post will be updated over time.

[y0uRd34th]

My opinion

Desert Eagles: Perfect -> Best Change
HK MP5: overpowered without any Bink!
Ak74: not testet
Steyr AUG: Faster Reload -> 25ammo
Spas-12: -3dmg
Ruger 77: 2,3dmg more
M79: ...
Barret M8A12: Perfect -> look Deagles
FN Minimi: not testet
Minigun: not testet
Ussocom: overpowered
Combat Knife: 10000dmg more or not..
Chainsaw: Perfect -> look Deagles
M72 Law: Perfect -> look Deagles
Flamer and Bows have no changes?

That's my opinion and I'm not the born weapons.ini modder,
but i think these changes would make Soldat a bit better!

[Dusty]

Steyr has given me a big >____________>

[Rai-Dei]

// Deagles     Its great, I'm in love with them.
// HK MP5       Its good, not an auto user but the buff is nice.
// Ak           Ak was fine in my opinion not much of a change.
// Steyr        Still overpowered, not a great nerf.
// Spas         Spas is a fucking beast now, its great.
// Ruger        Terrible, now its like a more powerful Deagle.
// M79          I like where its at.
// Barret       Good stuff!
// Minimi       No idea, don't play with it enough.
// Minigun      Love it, it kills pretty well now.
// Socom        Horrible, it needed a nerf not a buff.
// Knife        Not going to change much.
// Chainsaw     Doesn't matter.
// LAW          Great, law can be reloaded now! and hopefully no more emo delay.

[-Major-]

wasn't these changes already used in the european gather?

[Poop]

wasn't these changes already used in the european gather?

No, the europeon gather has older changes but I'm sure they will add this balance now. The NA gather has been using this balance for a couple of weeks however.

Check this thread if you want to see what weapon usage looks like in the new balance: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=32922.0

[Rook_PL]

I liked the changes, BESIDES: ammo change for aug [I'm too conservative I think] and spas (it seems we have new n00bgun; It would be fine without 8th shot). It's good to buff secondaries, didn't notice the knife change, I don't like barett change (maybe because I don't like barrett). I have big concerns about minigun, I was always for making it useful weapon, but... you can get too many kills on one clip.
edit: oh, and I still see (or hear to be accurate) the sound bug while changing a gun while reloading (it still plays sound from 1st weapon while I have in hands the second one)

[~Niko~]

Now can we say minigun can do "something"? Barret seems harder to aim with. sux.

[excruciator]

I might just main with socom if I didn't love my mouse so much.

Also, mp5 is just great, too great in this version.

And what with the ak getting nerfed.

[demoniac93]

To be quite honest i think that at this point already, after the 1000 changes having been done, doing more change would be insane, it would be unfair to older players, who'd have to re-adapt to their weps, and an advantage to new players who'd be able to adapt faster and better, besides, it's already way too unbalanced and crazy, more changes could mean more mess ups...believe me...anyway it's just an opinion and i know after implementing this kinda stuff in-game a single opinion (from a semi-pro) won't change a darn thing...

[wolfbr]

// Changes from 1.4.2 -> 1.5
// Deagles      ok
// HK MP5       ok
// Ak           dmg +2, ammo -10, reload -15
// Steyr        no,the aug of the 1.4.2 is better.
// Spas         ok
// Ruger        dmg -6, ammo +1
// M79         startup +10, speed +10
// Barret      ok
// Minimi      ok
// Minigun      dmg +1, bink +5, startup -5,ammo +80
// Socom        dmg +1(its a "secundary" weapon,+3 = overpowered), or dmg+3 ,FireInterval+5
// Knife        ok
// Chainsaw     ok
// LAW          ok

[Ziem]

// Changes from 1.4.2 -> 1.5
// Deagles      ok
// HK MP5       ok
// Ak           dmg +2, ammo -10, reload -15
// Steyr        no,the aug of the 1.4.2 is better.
// Spas         ok
// Ruger        dmg -6, ammo +1
// M79         startup +10, speed +10
// Barret      ok
// Minimi      ok
// Minigun      dmg +1, bink +5, startup -5,ammo +80
// Socom        dmg +1(its a "secundary" weapon,+3 = overpowered), or dmg+3 ,FireInt.+5
// Knife        ok
// Chainsaw     ok
// LAW          ok

Ak - another Steyr? No thanks.
Steyr - yeah, it was good (too good..), so it was nerfed.
Ruger - no, people don't really need long range deagle.
M79 - ...
Socom - +3 overpowered? How is adding ~2% dmg (it still kills with ~6 bullets) overpowered? fireint +5? what...

[wolfbr]

ak - +precision,+damage, +FireInterval, slow reload
Steyr - +speed,-damage, -FireInterval, fast reload

40 ammo for ak it is very. need ammo and firepower? it uses minimi
-------------
Ruger > good in medium range, regular in long range, the extra ammunition that helps in diverse situations (miss, to finish enemy..)

Socom > it does not need much damage, its a secundary weapon.

[STM1993]

Alright, after playing around a bit more, here's my opinion:

DEs --> They are perfect so far.
MP5 --> It is dangerously powerful, at the border of overpowered. Actually, the 75% bullet push makes it stronger in a way. If it is overpowered, a -1 damage could be used.
AK --> It is currently reasonable to -1 damage because of the big nerfs going around the Aug.
Aug --> It is still amazingly strong despite big nerfs to the ammo and bullet push. Tough one to balance.
Spas --> I think the Spas is disappointing. I mean, yes, your opponent can't be blasted off too far away, but the bullet push is so weak when shooting oncoming enemies.
Ruger --> Disappointing, its too weak. It doesn't feel like a Ruger at all.
M79 --> It's still the same, so no comments.
Barrett --> Good improvement. Only flaw is that the scope works at 240 ticks, not at 225 ticks.
Minmi --> The Minimi's TOO ACCURATE, seems a lil strong as well.
Minigun --> Actually, I think the Minigun is good. I haven't tried it online yet, but its very promising.
Socom --> That's a very good buff, considering the fact that it still kills in 6 shots against a full-health opponent, and that it is a pretty under-used secondary.
Knife --> I like the nerf back to the original damage that the knife had in older Soldat versions.
Chainsaw --> Due to lower bullet push ad 30 ticks faster reload, it's a bit stronger.
LAW --> Great buff! Now it can really be reloaded and its startup is fast!

My suggestions for improvement:
Aug - There are a few possibilities as to why the Aug is still so strong. Accuracy, Ammo or Damage.
Spas - It needs more bullet push somehow... adding more damage is not going to help.
Ruger - I suggest that it uses 250 damage and 45-50 fireinterval. For reload, 90-110. Let bink stay as 0 and ammo to stay as 4 for now.
Minimi - See below.

Something like this for the weapons that need improvement (except Spas):

Code: [Select]

[Ak-74]
Damage=102
FireInterval=10
Ammo=40
ReloadTime=150
Speed=240
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-16
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Ruger 77]
Damage=251
FireInterval=52
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=115
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=4
Recoil=0

[FN Minimi - Type 1]
Damage=85
FireInterval=9
Ammo=50
ReloadTime=250
Speed=270
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-35
MovementAcc=4
Recoil=0

[FN Minimi - Type 2]
Damage=85
FireInterval=9
Ammo=50
ReloadTime=250
Speed=270
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=5
Recoil=0

Steyr Aug (special case, this guy's a tough cookie to balance)

Code: [Select]

[Type 1]
Damage=69
FireInterval=7
Ammo=25
ReloadTime=115
Speed=260
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-19
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Type 2]
Damage=72
FireInterval=7
Ammo=25
ReloadTime=118
Speed=260
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-35
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

^ I'm testing all these out with the 1.5.0d beta Soldat. Expect changes to be made to these stats, so if you wish to comment on these stats, please quote the post.

I am very strongly against further lowering the self-bink of ANY automatic weapon with movementacc, because bink OVERRIDES movementacc. I cannot stress this enough. However, at the same time, it can be used to the advantage of balancing.

My idea of the weapons:
DEs - The most powerful weapon. Disadvantage: Tough to use, slow bullets.
MP5 - A very powerful and easily controllable auto. Disadvantage: Poor at long range.
AK - Auto with great firepower, ammo and accuracy. However, it is very slow.
Aug - Auto with weak firepower and rather low ammo, but incredible accuracy and speed.
Spas - Semi which is incredible at close range.
Ruger - Very slow semi and has very limited ammo. However, its firepower and accuracy are deadly.
M79 - Explosive 1-hitter, with a curve for nice angle-shots.
Barrett - The long-ranged 1-hitter, duh.
Minimi - Great auto! But with terrible portability.

We have basically come to a point where the weapons can all be buffed to 1.2.1 level, though some are already well-buffed enough. If it is really that point, then here's a possible greatly buffed stat:

Code: [Select]

[USSOCOM]
Damage=174
FireInterval=12
Ammo=12
ReloadTime=65
Speed=180
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Desert Eagles]
Damage=183
FireInterval=22
Ammo=7
ReloadTime=90
Speed=190
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[HK MP5]
Damage=104
FireInterval=6
Ammo=30
ReloadTime=105
Speed=190
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Ak-74]
Damage=110
FireInterval=10
Ammo=40
ReloadTime=150
Speed=240
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-16
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Steyr AUG]
Damage=73
FireInterval=7
Ammo=30
ReloadTime=118
Speed=260
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=-22
MovementAcc=2
Recoil=0

[Spas-12]
Damage=124
Fireinterval=31
Ammo=8
ReloadTime=175
Speed=139
BulletStyle=3
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Ruger 77]
Damage=252
FireInterval=50
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=90
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[M79]
Damage=165000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=180
Speed=107
BulletStyle=4
StartUpTime=0
Bink=40
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[Barret M82A1]
Damage=495
FireInterval=215
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=270
Speed=550
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=25
Bink=90
MovementAcc=7
Recoil=0

[FN Minimi]
Damage=86
FireInterval=9
Ammo=50
ReloadTime=250
Speed=270
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

[XM214 Minigun]
Damage=55
FireInterval=3
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=335
Speed=290
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=40
Bink=-3
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Flamer]
Damage=1900
FireInterval=6
Ammo=200
ReloadTime=5
Speed=105
BulletStyle=5
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Rambo Bow]
Damage=1200
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=25
Speed=210
BulletStyle=7
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Flamed Arrows]
Damage=800
FireInterval=10
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=39
Speed=180
BulletStyle=8
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Combat Knife]
Damage=215000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=60
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Chainsaw]
Damage=2100
FireInterval=2
Ammo=250
ReloadTime=60
Speed=76
BulletStyle=11
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[M72 LAW]
Damage=150000
FireInterval=30
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=375
Speed=230
BulletStyle=12
StartUpTime=17
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Punch]
Damage=33000
FireInterval=6
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=3
Speed=50
BulletStyle=6
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Grenade]
Damage=150000
FireInterval=80
Ammo=1
ReloadTime=20
Speed=50
BulletStyle=2
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

[Stationary Gun]
Damage=180
FireInterval=10
Ammo=100
ReloadTime=366
Speed=360
BulletStyle=14
StartUpTime=0
Bink=0
MovementAcc=1
Recoil=0

(Ow... my brain is tired... more opinions please.)

[Clawbug]

+2 Damage for AUG compared to AK in 1.5, despite ammo nerf, this is completely unjustified IMO. No chance for AK in 1v1 situations.

[STM1993]

+2 Damage for AUG compared to AK in 1.5, despite ammo nerf, this is completely unjustified IMO. No chance for AK in 1v1 situations.

Actually the Steyr Aug had a +1 damage (72 --> 74), not +2.

Well, Skoskav reckoned the Steyr Aug should be a 1v1 auto, though personally I'm against that idea, until I'm out of suggestions on how to balance the Aug. I don't see a need to add damage for the Aug...

Admittedly though, I have a feeling that I'm pretty biased towards the AK. Yet the sad fact is, the Aug, despite such a big nerf, is still so strong.

ak - +precision,+damage, +FireInterval, slow reload
Steyr - +speed,-damage, -FireInterval, fast reload

40 ammo for ak it is very. need ammo and firepower? it uses minimi
-------------
Ruger > good in medium range, regular in long range, the extra ammunition that helps in diverse situations (miss, to finish enemy..)

Socom > it does not need much damage, its a secundary weapon.

That AK you are describing is similar to older versions of the AK, except that the reload speed is the same. That AK was too strong in terms of range capability, so it was changed from slower/stronger to faster/weaker.

For the Aug, we're not gonna touch its fireinterval. Damage must be tweaked, ammo/reload actually must be tweaked as well. Bullet speed however, chances are we'd not change it.

I don't get what you're trying to say about "40 ammo for ak it is very. need ammo and firepower? it uses minimi"

The Ruger you suggested is basically a long-ranged Desert Eagle. No need for that.

The Socom may be a secondary, but its pretty underused and weak compared to the other secondaries. It deserves that buff. Besides, it can still only kill a full-health person in 6 shots. The increased damage just helps it work even better as a backup/finisher weapon.

As for the M79, a startup time is a bad idea (people can still go kamikaze anyway) and an increase in projectile speed would weaken its ability to curve its shots nicely over curvy terrain even though the projectile may reach the enemy faster.

[Squakingcow]

Thing is the AUG hasn't actually been nerfed, it's been boosted. Unless you are a retard killing in sub 25 shots is stupidly easy. Sure you'd be hard pressed to kill 2 people in 25 shots, however in a CTF game you end up in a 1v2 situation you can just nade on of the opponents to bring down their health levels to the point where it is easily achievable, it is also worth bearing in mind that in a 1v2 situation with any gun you are pretty much screwed unless you can land a nade.

Actually the Steyr Aug had a +1 damage (72 --> 74), not +2.

The point Clawbug was making was that relative to the AK the AUG has received +2 damage, and considering that the AUG was used a huge amount more in 3v3 CTF situations than the AK I fail to see how nerfing the AK and boosting the AUG will solve this problem.

[STM1993]

^ Ohh, I see. Though you can't just look at the damage like that, you need to consider the speed.

Good point.

Then there's practically no other way to nerf the Aug other than to reduce its damage. Alternatively, the other weapons have to be buffed.

[wolfbr]

in real life, ak74 uses 30-round, or 45-round RPK-74 detachable box magazine, not 40.
RPK uses 40-round curved magazine.

---
Ruger vs Deagle:

Deagle: -Fire Interval, +ammo, -speed, -Damage, -bink = close range.
Ruger: +Fire Interval, -ammo, +speed, +Damage, +bink = Long range.

Deagle kill in 3 shoots (ammo 7)
Ruger kill in 2 shoots (ammo 5)

[Poop]

+2 Damage for AUG compared to AK in 1.5, despite ammo nerf, this is completely unjustified IMO. No chance for AK in 1v1 situations.

But its way better in 1v2 and 2v2 situations now that steyr has only 25 ammo. Weapon usage shows AK as most used thus far in the beta balance.

Thing is the AUG hasn't actually been nerfed, it's been boosted. Unless you are a retard killing in sub 25 shots is stupidly easy. Sure you'd be hard pressed to kill 2 people in 25 shots, however in a CTF game you end up in a 1v2 situation you can just nade on of the opponents to bring down their health levels to the point where it is easily achievable, it is also worth bearing in mind that in a 1v2 situation with any gun you are pretty much screwed unless you can land a nade.

Steyr usage is down 50% in the beta balance. Maybe its the psychological impact of the -5 ammo that is causing people to quit, but I believe that it is much better balanced now, we will know more in the upcoming weeks.