1.5.0d Beta Weapons Discussion

[excruciator]

^

Everyone should take good use fo the buff.

I also find spas buff unnecessary.

[STM1993]

I also find spas buff unnecessary.

Agreed, except for the +1 ammo. The spas is stronger than ever - it actually didn't need the +1 speed.

I've also more or less confirmed that the reload of each Spas shot takes roughly 25 ticks (with reference to older versions of the Spas, which did not use shell-by-shell reload). So technically, the Spas now takes 200 ticks to reload to the maximum ammo ( 8 ), as compared to 175 ticks to reach maximum ammo (7). It may take slightly longer since the reload animation is pretty slow.

[SDFilm]

I find the Minimi still quite debatable, and for the Aug I don't quite understand its balance, so I'd like to have some input about the Aug - its balance and its purpose.


Minimi:
The Minimi is actually the most powerful auto if you think about it. It has the highest ammo clip (50), 2nd highest DPS, long range and has the best DOT of all autos. This holds true even in the weakest version of the Minimi in Soldat history.

However, despite this, the Minimi has been less popular compared to the other autos. This is mainly because of the Minimi's portability - it was inaccurate when moving (which is not practical for an auto, especially when rushing) and the biggest turn-off was its horrendously long reload.

The increase in accuracy by reducing movementacc and lowering its self-bink is quite a possible debate. It makes the Minimi more powerful than it really needs to be, yet on the other hand it'd probably still be underused due to its long reload. Then again, without accuracy, the Minimi can't be the most powerful auto, and the Minimi has been built as the "Tank" - it dominates until it is out of ammo, whereby you'd probably get owned sooner or later unless you can find cover for 250 ticks. This makes the Minimi a more defensive weapon than an offensive weapon and it is more suitable in larger maps, like the Ruger.

Comparing the Minimi and the AK, the AK would be the more offensive alternative to the Minimi since it has a faster reload. Since most Soldat games are played more offensively than defensively, the Minimi would be much less popular than the AK. I think the AK was given that -1 damage to further contrast between the Minimi and the AK. The increase in accuracy is necessary to give it an edge against the other weapons which are growing increasingly powerful.

I almost forgot, regarding the issue of bink overriding movementacc. The Minimi is inaccurate when fired in bursts, but it becomes accurate after 4 shots. In this manner, the Minimi has the disadvantage of having to concentrate its fire for a long period of time to be effective, making it poor for pot shots.

What is your input about the Minimi's increase in accuracy?

Maybe it's just because I'm so used to it; but I don't see the Minimi's reload as long- more that the other weapons's reload as fast. Either way, the 50 rounds in a clip makes it less of an issue; though it does have to be said that those 50 rounds do much less damage than the AK's 40 rounds, so don't get hung up on the number.

And on the issue of the increased accuracy- I think it's a good buff that plays to the minimi's style- as you have to disengage your jet/movement keys while fireing, much like the barrett; except that you have to keep that steam of bullets on your target while you're losing momentum all the time. I also think that the added movementacc is a good nerf, as the minimi does have to pay for closing in on the AK's market (good accuracy), while not losing any DPB at the same time.

It's about getting a balance between making the Minimi less powerfull/offencive than the AK, less spammy than the Minigun while still laying down much heavier firepower than the Styer. The low portability is a good tool for this. I kinda see the Minimi like those 1st-person kill-cam vids on Youtube of helicopters in Iraq; seeming rather stationary yet keeping a good distance away from the target at the same time- just as in Soldat a Minimier has to lay off the movement while making sure all those rounds go into the target, before hopefully reloading in safety. This is even more true since I often find myself jetting as high as I can so that I've got plenty of free-fall time for shooting, before needing to either run away or suffer the full movementacc. There's always the option of just staying still on the ground, but that obviously makes you an easier target.

[excruciator]

Spas works even without the +1 ammo. The unique reload of spas pratically eliminate the need of more shots.

[Tinysmurf]

Is this the normal weapon mod discussion? I agree with everything but the socom. The socom is already powerful and less skill than a knife. Knife should just be 1 hit kill. Everything else looks good.

[Mallow007]

Knife should just be 1 hit kill.

Wait...what?

[SDFilm]

Is this the normal weapon mod discussion? I agree with everything but the socom. The socom is already powerful and less skill than a knife. Knife should just be 1 hit kill. Everything else looks good.

You could argue that the socom "is more skill" then the knife as you need to make multiple hits instead of just running up and shanking them.

[excruciator]

Knife should just be 1 hit kill. Everything else looks good.

Denied, as knife is overpowered.

[Devastated Mind]

I actually don't think Ruger is overpowered much in the current version. I mean how many outstanding Ruger players are there? Only magorko, RealRook and ZeuScl spring to my mind, I might miss 2-3 though.
There are so many more pros with Steyrs, AKs and Minimis.
It's a bit harder to master Ruger and it's in no way overused compared to other weapons. Youre just crying because it's annoying to play a Ruger that has a good day :p. So I dont think it needs a nerf.
But hey, I'm a Ruger user, im biased.

Even then, the new balance doesnt make Ruger feel that much different, I'm gonna use it anyway.

[-Major-]

almost any experianced player can just pick up ruger and have a great hit ratio. maybe not just as good as those who really devote themselves for it. but it's an easy weapon, with so much power.

[STM1993]

<text>

True, though I'd still hold to it that the reload is long. I mean, if you're using a Minimi, you would try to avoid fights if you're gonna be out of ammo, but if you're using an MP5, you wouldn't really mind reloading in the middle of a typical fight or while being chased by a very fast opponent since it won't take too long. Ultimately, I'd agree that if you're used to the weapon, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Spas works even without the +1 ammo. The unique reload of spas pratically eliminate the need of more shots.

True, ammo's never an issue for the Spas. As long as you have more than 1 ammo (or more than 2), you're pretty safe. Why? Because if you were to reload at zero ammo, it'd actually take a bit longer before you can fire.

In a way, I'd say the +1 ammo is a slight disadvantage in some sense, because now I have to reload to 8 instead of 7 ammo in order to use the "reload-while-shooting trick" by holding down 'R' and shooting at the same time, which would only work if you have maximum ammo.

Ultimately, the ammo change is unnecessary and doesn't really make a difference (besides, which Spas-user would truly run out of ammo even if his ammo were 7?), but now that it's been implemented, I think it's okay to just leave it there.

Is this the normal weapon mod discussion? I agree with everything but the socom. The socom is already powerful and less skill than a knife. Knife should just be 1 hit kill. Everything else looks good.

Mainly the normal balance, but you're welcome to give input on the realistic balance.

I'd assume you're talking about the Realistic balance. If so, then yes, the Socom is powerful enough.

However, in normal mode, it's pretty much a different story altogether. The knife has more advantages and practical usage over the Socom. The only real advantage the Socom has over the knife is that the Socom can deal with multiple opponents, especially if they are injured - kinda like a secondary version of Ruger. That fulfills the purpose of the Socom - a good finisher and backup weapon. The buff is good, since the Socom would still kill in 6 shots against a full-health opponent (if you're lucky to land 2-3 headshots, then you can safely kill in 5, but such cases are very rare).

I actually don't think Ruger is overpowered much in the current version. I mean how many outstanding Ruger players are there? Only magorko, RealRook and ZeuScl spring to my mind, I might miss 2-3 though.
There are so many more pros with Steyrs, AKs and Minimis.
It's a bit harder to master Ruger and it's in no way overused compared to other weapons. Youre just crying because it's annoying to play a Ruger that has a good day :p. So I dont think it needs a nerf.
But hey, I'm a Ruger user, im biased.

Even then, the new balance doesnt make Ruger feel that much different, I'm gonna use it anyway.

The Ruger needed the nerf mainly because it was too easy to use due to too high damage. It has overstepped its purpose to become an offensive anti-auto, when that's rightfully the role of the DEs. Compare the Ruger to the DEs and the Spas, the Ruger's too effective and easy to use at the same time, of course it needed the nerf.

The new balance is great. It has removed bink, making the Ruger a more solid weapon altogether. The faster reload is an extra bonus. Now, it's also a more defensive and supportive weapon, further fulfilling the Ruger's purpose as that non-1-hitting carbine of the Barrett.

The lower damage means that the Ruger's now harder to use. So if you're a very good Ruger-user, you shouldn't really see a very big difference in the Ruger except for an increase in skill-level.

About "more pros with Steyrs, AKs and Minimis", that's because they are autos, they are easier to use - semis are actually stronger than the autos, but have the price to pay for being harder to use/master. Plus, for the Minimi, that's not really the case if you're talking about popularity. Look at these SCTFL stats in both 1.4.2 and the recent 1.5 balance.

The weapon usage (according to many statistics, use the search function and look around) always follows a pattern something along these lines:

1. Grenades
2. Steyr Aug
3. AK-74
4. M79
5. Ruger
6. HK MP5 or FN Minimi
7. Barrett M82A1
8. DEs or Spas

The Ruger is not that unpopular at all. Its the most popular semi, but the Spas and DEs are barely touched compared to the Ruger. The new balance ensures that all the weapons are used more equally. Besides, like I said earlier, the new Ruger shouldn't affect the Ruger-pros heavily.

[homerofgods]

the only gay thing about spas is if you try to shoot while reloading, it goes straight forward nomather what. I thing spas is one of the best weapons right now.
What weapon would you use together with a spas? knife,socom, or law?

[STM1993]

the only gay thing about spas is if you try to shoot while reloading, it goes straight forward nomather what. I thing spas is one of the best weapons right now.
What weapon would you use together with a spas? knife,socom, or law?

That would be a flaw. Shooting whilst reloading but not straight forward continuously is a special trick which can only be done if you have the maximum ammo (holding down reload and shoot not too fast). I think the Spas is getting more powerful than necessary.

For personal reasons, I'd hold a Socom with a Spas. I don't like getting down to the ground slowly and shooting a missile, neither do I like to throw a knife, and I'm not that fast so the saw is out. I'm used to the Socom to back me up for longer ranges, especially since it can be used in mid-air effectively.

Theoretically, the Socom and the LAW would be the best secondaries to support the Spas. The LAW has the range to backup the Spas's short range, the Socom acts as a finisher or a backup for mid-range or further, whereby the Spas might not be as effective. I don't find the knife or saw so useful, kinda redundant when you've already got such a powerful weapon in your hands.

On a side note:
My favourite weapons are now the Minimi, Socom and AK.

[Clawbug]

I'd revert the Spas changes.
I'd -3 dmg Minimi compared to 1.4.2
I'd -1 dmg AUG, Mp5 and AK compared to 1.4.2
I'd remove LAW startuptime.

That would be fine balance.

[STM1993]

I'd -3 dmg Minimi compared to 1.4.2

That's a horrible idea, it would destroy the Minimi.

Read below:

The Minimi is actually the most powerful auto if you think about it. It has the highest ammo clip (50), 2nd highest DPS, long range and has the best DOT of all autos. This holds true even in the weakest version of the Minimi in Soldat history.

However, despite this, the Minimi has been less popular compared to the other autos. This is mainly because of the Minimi's portability - it was inaccurate when moving (which is not practical for an auto, especially when rushing) and the biggest turn-off was its horrendously long reload.

The increase in accuracy by reducing movementacc and lowering its self-bink is quite a possible debate. It makes the Minimi more powerful than it really needs to be, yet on the other hand it'd probably still be underused due to its long reload. Then again, without accuracy, the Minimi can't be the most powerful auto, and the Minimi has been built as the "Tank" - it dominates until it is out of ammo, whereby you'd probably get owned sooner or later unless you can find cover for 250 ticks. This makes the Minimi a more defensive weapon than an offensive weapon and it is more suitable in larger maps, like the Ruger.

Comparing the Minimi and the AK, the AK would be the more offensive alternative to the Minimi since it has a faster reload. Since most Soldat games are played more offensively than defensively, the Minimi would be much less popular than the AK. I think the AK was given that -1 damage to further contrast between the Minimi and the AK. The increase in accuracy is necessary to give it an edge against the other weapons which are growing increasingly powerful.

I almost forgot, regarding the issue of bink overriding movementacc. The Minimi is inaccurate when fired in bursts, but it becomes accurate after 4 shots. In this manner, the Minimi has the disadvantage of having to concentrate its fire for a long period of time to be effective, making it poor for pot shots.

The Minimi's strength lies in excellent firepower which can last for extended periods of time. However, it is crippled by long reload and poor accuracy. Taking away its firepower (or THAT much firepower) would leave the Minimi as just a piece of crap. To be exact, like an Aug with no accuracy, firing like 20-30% slower and 50 ammo but 2.5 times its usual reload time, which is useless.

You can argue that the Minimi is accurate in some sense. However, if you want to be accurate with a Minimi, you'd need to either sacrifice your movement/agility, or you need to take advantage of the bink overriding movementacc which only takes place after 4 shots, meaning you might have lost quite a lot of DOT or even be killed by then.

[Clawbug]

It does not matter how long it reloads. You will be dead by the time you'd run out of ammo.

The only thing that matters is the DPS weapon can provide when in 1v1 situation. When weapon has high DPS, it will be used because it can kill faster. The only thing you care about when selecting weapon is the time it takes to kill the enemy. Faster you kill, more you have HP and easier it is to make more kills.

Though, Minimi is quite an exception for some reason, no one likes it, even though it is superior to other autos when not moving.

[STM1993]

It does not matter how long it reloads. You will be dead by the time you'd run out of ammo.

The only thing that matters is the DPS weapon can provide when in 1v1 situation. When weapon has high DPS, it will be used.

Though, Minimi is quite an exception for some reason, no one likes it, even though it is superior to other autos when not moving.

Then that is very contradictory to your suggestion, why nerf it any further if it seems so weak/underused?

Really, the reason why people not use it is its inaccuracy when used whilst moving which would disrupt its DOT because its firing rate is nothing as fast as the Aug. People often play more offensively than defensively. Compare the number of people using offensive weapons to the number of people using defensive weapons.

Soldat is not about 1v1 only, that's a big mistake (especially if you're talking about the Ruger). You have to consider teamwork, multiple opponents. Besides, the most popular game mode is CTF, which is team-based. The Minimi shines against multiple opponents and when used defensively and as a support, not so in other situations.

Not forgetting the use of grenades.

[Clawbug]

It does not matter how long it reloads. You will be dead by the time you'd run out of ammo.

The only thing that matters is the DPS weapon can provide when in 1v1 situation. When weapon has high DPS, it will be used.

Though, Minimi is quite an exception for some reason, no one likes it, even though it is superior to other autos when not moving.

Then that is very contradictory to your suggestion, why nerf it any further?

Really, the reason why people not use it is its inaccuracy when used whilst moving which would disrupt its DOT because its firing rate is nothing as fast as the Aug. People often play more offensively than defensively. Compare the number of people using offensive weapons to the number of people using defensive weapons.

Soldat is not about 1v1 only, that's a big mistake. You have to consider teamwork, multiple opponents. Besides, the most popular game mode is CTF, which is team-based.

CTF falls down to 1v1's. Actually in every situation where you face enemy you will be doing 1v1 with him.

It happens in DM. It happens in CTF, it happens everywhere. In the end, the winner will be the one who dealt more damage faster. Thats why the DPS matters so much.

There has been rising Minimi usage in the ast few months, and considering it's buff in 1.5, plus the AK nerf, I see no reason why not to use Minimi instead. It already outplays any AK in 1v1 situations if handled with care(thank god there aren't many people who use it).

Yes, Minimi requires to adapt new way of playing, but the gains are massive in 1.5.

No one survives against multiple opponents. Unless they come one-by-one. Then it comes down to two or three 1v1's.

[STM1993]

Then frankly, the weapon balancing has failed, because the goals of the balance is not just to make every weapon equal, but also to prevent cases whereby only certain weapons are used (which means raising awareness of the other weapons), which is a very real problem, and it seems that this new balance has emphasized more on that.

The only buff/nerf I'd like to see is the self-bink value.

Minimi's good enough.

This is what I would deem fitting as well. But since the general tone of the next version is to have stronger and more user-friendly weapons, all weapons will be buffed more than needed and those nerfed will be nerfed less than needed. I personally consider the current experimental Minimi to be pretty fine for that goal. Perhaps it's the other weapons that aren't as good.

Note: This "current experimental Minimi" is the same as 1.4.2 balance, but with -8 self-bink instead of -12.

Maybe the goals of the balance has changed, but I feel this is the case for the current balance, especially for some of the weapons.

Ultimately, we want Soldat to be as fast-paced as it was in 1.2.1, and it seems that the balance is taking the step up to repowering the weapons. Almost all of the weapons are getting more and more powerful, one way or another.



Alright, I'm pretty tired, I'll go grab a rest, focus on my studies and school.

[excruciator]

I'd revert the Spas changes.
I'd -3 dmg Minimi compared to 1.4.2
I'd -1 dmg AUG, Mp5 and AK compared to 1.4.2
I'd remove LAW startuptime.

That would be fine balance.

Agreed
You'd cripple minimi
You'd cripple the autos
You'd make law insanely good

Not so good of a balance, in my opinion.

I would,
Make spas stay the same
Minimi same
change aug to whatever is now(1.5), expect the bink, which will remain the same
buff mp5 to +2, or 3, expect the bink, which should be the same, or bigger
buff ak by +1

Law, same as 1.5