1.5.0d Beta Weapons Discussion

[Clawbug]

Yes, I'd cripple autos, and for a reason. The reason being that semis are harder to use and hence should have small edge over autos. Besides, the balance should be: Semis > autos > 1shot kills > semis ...

How would I make LAW insanely good? Who would that hurt? Knife users? How knife is now, if not insanely good?

Knife holds 80% of the secondary kills in SCTFL matches. No wonder I want to make LAW GOOOD and USABLE to gain balance among the Secondaries.

Maybe I am too extrimist with my opinions, though. But current balance is way off IMO. WAY off. And so is 1.5.

One step towards faster gameplay would be faster secondaries. Knife has HUGE advantage since it can be used everywhere compared to LAW. Hence LAW without delay would fit into the game quite well IMO.

[excruciator]

auto wins because of nades. not because the gun itself is really great.
No startup law will be just too amazing. It would become the new knife. I don't think we would want that. A small delay should be implemented.

I wonder how RS balance without recoil's gonna be like.

[Clawbug]

auto wins because of nades. not because the gun itself is really great.
No startup law will be just too amazing. It would become the new knife. I don't think we would want that. A small delay should be implemented.

I doubt 80% of people would just hop to LAW due to 0.3 seconds faster shooting.

Small delay, how small? The 0.3 s already is quite significant, 0.1 or so at most.

I dont care, just cripple the knife.

[STM1993]

If DPS/DOT is the deciding factor and CTF revolves around 1v1s, then shouldn't slow-firing 1-hitters be the most used weapons in Soldat? Yet, it is actually the Aug and AK that wins. They are autos, they are faster in every way. Therefore doesn't reload affect the decision as well And does it not show that battles are actually against multiple opponents rather than 1v1? Plus, not forgetting the Aug has a very fast reload and must reload often due to fast ammo drain.

Then what about the DEs and the Spas? They have very good DPS/DOT, able to beat autos, yet they are at the bottom, why? There are definitely other factors, you can't say its just DPS against single opponents.



Do you know what's really screwing up the balance? It's not the autos... it's actually the grenades, because it gives the autos the ability to 1-hit kill, breaking the weapon > weapon rule. Yes, it adds to gameplay, but I found that it screws up the balance. Yes, maybe a couple of the autos are a bit too strong, but ultimately its the grenades that decide everything.

Try playing with the weapons without grenades. You'd find that they are actually quite well-balanced, though some of the autos are still a little strong I agree. But add in the grenades, everything turns in 100% favour of the autos.



As for secondaries, rather than buff up the LAW to insane levels which doesn't make the Knife any worse, why not weaken the knife instead by reducing its range or throw speed? Buffing up just one gun only hurts all other guns. Haven't you forgotten the Socom?

[Clawbug]

The reason why Barrett/M79 arent used in clanwars is that they are not reliable. They are way too risky to use. No one hits 100 % with them, and if you miss in crucial situation, the match can be lost due to that. Hence the autos. They provide solid and stable performance no matter what. Then come the semis with more or less risks involved, then the 1shot killers.

And how does LAW, or any other weapon, fire when changing the weapon, mid animation? LAW has severe disadvantage compared to knife. Getting rid of it would be the first step.

You wanted fast gameplay, but then refuse to make it fast? More damage means less hits. Less skill. More spray. Thats why everyone thinks "I was so good in 1.2.1", because everyone could make kills.

If nades are the problem, then why does everyone disagree with nerfing them?

[STM1993]

And how does LAW, or any other weapon, fire when changing the weapon?

If your gun is ready to fire (the fireinterval bar being blank), and you switch weapons, and you happen to shoot too early, your switching animation is still incomplete. During this time, your gun can just fire, and it would be inaccurate, just like if tried to shoot while reloading the Spas (without using the "infinite ammo" technique).

You wanted fast gameplay, but then refuse to make it fast? More damage means less hits. Less skill. More spray. Thats why everyone thinks "I was so good in 1.2.1", because everyone could make kills.

If nades are the problem, then why does everyone disagree with nerfing them?

I don't mind fast gameplay, but the problem is that the faster gameplay is causing everything to go unbalanced. This faster gameplay comes from the grenades.

Now I don't mind nerfing the grenades, its just... how are we going to nerf it anyway without making it slow down gameplay too much?

Make it stick on people?
Make it NOT explode on contact (purely timer)?
Reduce its damage like mad?
Make it explode on contact ONLY if it is on the ground?
Reduce throwing speed?
Make grenades shootable?
Make all autos unable to throw grenades while shooting (like the minigun)?

[-Major-]

well, autos are better because soldat is such a laggy game.

[STM1993]

...I suggest we run a server that does not use nades and lets see what happens.

The primary semis and 1-hitters have been balanced pretty well (except Spas), the autos are the complicated ones due to grenades.

Nerf the grenades, maybe weaken the autos a teeny bit, fix up the Spas, deal with the knife, that's it.



It's getting hard to think...

[Clawbug]

Damage nerf for the nades, shorter time to explosion, unnoticeably shorter range. These should be hardcoded and not mentioned in changelog, no one would notice or complain.

Oeh, disabling nades while firing would be a major setback for nades. But tbh, It would be interesting to see how the game would be after the change.

And no, weapons can not be shot with while the animation goes. Try with the LAW and StartupTime 0, or any other weapon. Autos etc.

[excruciator]

...
Then what about the DEs and the Spas? They have very good DPS/DOT, able to beat autos, yet they are at the bottom, why? There are definitely other factors, you can't say its just DPS against single opponents.
...

Auto can spray, thats one big advantages of them.
Also auto can slow people down, making them nearly stationary, therefore easier targets.
Auto tolerate misses, while at the sametime, when nades are added to the mix, they are still perform "1 hit kill"

The only common good traits in semis are good damage.

[excruciator]

Damage nerf for the nades, shorter time to explosion, unnoticeably shorter range. These should be hardcoded and not mentioned in changelog, no one would notice or complain.

Oeh, disabling nades while firing would be a major setback for nades. But tbh, It would be interesting to see how the game would be after the change.

And no, weapons can not be shot with while the animation goes. Try with the LAW and StartupTime 0, or any other weapon. Autos etc.

I would change nade damage into base damage + 50% of enemy health.
Instead of pure damage.

[Sappy]

I really don't like any further changes to Soldat besides bug fixes / netcode improvements - I think there have been far too many gameplay altering patches and though the current patch is certainly not the best, I think it should be left at that.

[Clawbug]

I really don't like any further changes to Soldat besides bug fixes / netcode improvements - I think there have been far too many gameplay altering patches and though the current patch is certainly not the best, I think it should be left at that.

Does this include weapon balance?

[Sappy]

Yes.

[Poop]

Sorry for changing the colors from last week (Had to make the chart over since I reformatted computer). Heres weapon usage stats from SCTFL (Pre-beta balance) to week 3 of SNAG (Beta balance).

[STM1993]

And no, weapons can not be shot with while the animation goes. Try with the LAW and StartupTime 0, or any other weapon. Autos etc.

I think I'll take a demo to show you what I mean later.

EDIT:
Okay, I did it with a Barrett that had no startup time. Basically, what you do is, the moment you switch, you hold down shoot (this can only be done if the fireinterval of the weapon is reset to 0). Demo attached in this post.

Notice that the 2nd Barrett shot was way off the first shot as a result of this, even though I was pointing in the same direction throughout.

It's a minor bug, but its effects can still be disastrous for non-autos that have no startup time.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1529/graphs30071image002.gif

Wow, now the AK is the champion auto. Aug usage has dropped really drastically.

For other weapons it seems that there is more usage, except for the Ruger and Barrett.

Minigun's still a big joke.

[SDFilm]

It does not matter how long it reloads. You will be dead by the time you'd run out of ammo.

The only thing that matters is the DPS weapon can provide when in 1v1 situation. When weapon has high DPS, it will be used because it can kill faster. The only thing you care about when selecting weapon is the time it takes to kill the enemy. Faster you kill, more you have HP and easier it is to make more kills.

Though, Minimi is quite an exception for some reason, no one likes it, even though it is superior to other autos when not moving.

Yes, I'd cripple autos, and for a reason. The reason being that semis are harder to use and hence should have small edge over autos. Besides, the balance should be: Semis > autos > 1shot kills > semis ...

How would I make LAW insanely good? Who would that hurt? Knife users? How knife is now, if not insanely good?

Knife holds 80% of the secondary kills in SCTFL matches. No wonder I want to make LAW GOOOD and USABLE to gain balance among the Secondaries.

Maybe I am too extrimist with my opinions, though. But current balance is way off IMO. WAY off. And so is 1.5.

One step towards faster gameplay would be faster secondaries. Knife has HUGE advantage since it can be used everywhere compared to LAW. Hence LAW without delay would fit into the game quite well IMO.

Do you have any good reason to unashamibly cripple the autos other than "semis are harder to use" and thus apparently weaker? Even though you're already contradicting your one point as Semis- especialy the Ruger, have the highest DPS in the game bar 1-hit-killers. Yet apparently the autos still need crippleing despite DPS being "The only thing that matters".

[Clawbug]

It does not matter how long it reloads. You will be dead by the time you'd run out of ammo.

The only thing that matters is the DPS weapon can provide when in 1v1 situation. When weapon has high DPS, it will be used because it can kill faster. The only thing you care about when selecting weapon is the time it takes to kill the enemy. Faster you kill, more you have HP and easier it is to make more kills.

Though, Minimi is quite an exception for some reason, no one likes it, even though it is superior to other autos when not moving.

Yes, I'd cripple autos, and for a reason. The reason being that semis are harder to use and hence should have small edge over autos. Besides, the balance should be: Semis > autos > 1shot kills > semis ...

How would I make LAW insanely good? Who would that hurt? Knife users? How knife is now, if not insanely good?

Knife holds 80% of the secondary kills in SCTFL matches. No wonder I want to make LAW GOOOD and USABLE to gain balance among the Secondaries.

Maybe I am too extrimist with my opinions, though. But current balance is way off IMO. WAY off. And so is 1.5.

One step towards faster gameplay would be faster secondaries. Knife has HUGE advantage since it can be used everywhere compared to LAW. Hence LAW without delay would fit into the game quite well IMO.

Do you have any good reason to unashamibly cripple the autos other than "semis are harder to use" and thus apparently weaker? Even though you're already contradicting your one point as Semis- especialy the Ruger, have the highest DPS in the game bar 1-hit-killers. Yet apparently the autos still need crippleing despite DPS being "The only thing that matters".

The fact that the balance is intended to be semis > autos > 1shot killers, MM said so.

Yes, Rugers DPS is high. But Ruger is unreliable. Autos are not.

Autos dont need the high DPS since they can steadibly perform "quite well" everywhere, whereas semis can be "damn good" or "bah I suck", 1shot killers then "omfg pwnage" or "omfg noob". This all depends on the accuracy of the user.

[STM1993]

The autos are very flexible, but I think they deserve their DOT, even if it must be lowered, whereby I'd only support minor nerfs. At the same time, I would not want to buff the autos' DOT any further, they're strong enough as they are. I'd rather touch on the other aspects such as accuracy and ammo. For the autos, it is essential to keep concentrated fire for an extended period of time and hitting as many shots as possible, therefore changing its ammo and its accuracy is one way to balance the autos. This is fair for the autos - they are still easy to use and still have good DOT potential, but it would be more difficult to them to maintain their DOT for an extended period of time without compromising something else.

Again, the main problem is the grenade which destroys all possibility of the above.

[SDFilm]

The fact that the balance is intended to be semis > autos > 1shot killers, MM said so.

Yes, Rugers DPS is high. But Ruger is unreliable. Autos are not.

Autos dont need the high DPS since they can steadibly perform "quite well" everywhere, whereas semis can be "damn good" or "bah I suck", 1shot killers then "omfg pwnage" or "omfg noob". This all depends on the accuracy of the user.

Yes that 'semis > autos > 1shot killers' is the premice, but that doesn't fully explain why autos should be nerfed. And even if the balance did dedicate that semis should skill autos in most cases, that'll just make Soldat a shallow game of paper-scissors-stone. Soldat isn't an RTS game where you deploy Semi Troopers to counter the Auto Troopers. That 'semis > autos > 1shot killers' thing is more of a generic premice rather than a strict rule, and weaker than the effect a map should have on the balance. And I say again, that still doesn't explain how and why autos should be nerfed.

You were saying the 1-hit-killers are unreliable, and now the semis are. That's a pretty harsh insurance policy you have there, it's not like the Ruger is in the same position the Barrett is when it misses. I thought you said before that DPS is everything, are you having second thoughts now?

Yes reliability to keep going after you've missed is good; but if you make the autos weaker you'd be making them reliably s**t. Going further on that point- more bullets does not mean autos are easier to use, only easier to spray.