Official Religious Debate Thread

[The Geologist]

Alright people.

Going to try an experiment here, since it seems that no topic is safe from getting dragged into religious debate these days.

Instead of going off course in another topic where religious issues just somehow pop up, do it in here.  Quote scripture, philosophize, poke fun at God, or tear each others faith to pieces in order to prove just who is correct.  Don't want to lose the intensity of the debate that was just sparked in the topic on feeling guilty?  Copy a few of those posts and bring 'em in here.  Post a link to this topic and refer people here to continue the debate from other, future topics.

The topics can change, and most likely will, as rapidly as new issues pop up in other threads around the boards.  Hopefully this will keep other topics a bit more focused, while at the same time giving people a place to ramble on to their hearts content.

Rampant failure will result in termination. 

Have fun.

[Espadon]

Hell, our bodies are sacred, and supposed to be temples of God.

Why do Christians require something as material as a Church? Isn't the Human heart in that capacity the best house for God?

[a-4-year-old]

so it has come to this...

[Rai-Dei]

This will probably go off-topic, and end up being about how you wipe.

[Twistkill]

Why do Christians require something as material as a Church? Isn't the Human heart in that capacity the best house for God?

The Church is the Body of Christ; it is the community of Christ-believing, God following Christians. A church is one of the many public, organizational, and physical manifestations of it. We need churches because they assist those in need of spiritual healing and guidance. Also, let's forget about religion just for a moment here - there's an excellent social aspect to it as well.

I'm more comfortable with answering people's questions about Christianity rather than debating about it. This, however, doesn't include things such as "How do you know God exists?", because that's still a debate question.

[GSx_Major]

Comments on this post

So when did we suddenly decide that God has created, but couldn't have created? And please don't be so general, I don't believe that the Bible is what stops us from killing, I believe it's our concsience ie. The Holy Spirit aka. God. If you made something that you loved would you want to make everyone kill each other? Of course not, it's logic, God made us for a purpose and this purpose was not to kill and love to do so. The bible is important, but never believe it plays a smaller role than God.

Without a past, nothing can have been done. It was an answer to how he said "God disappearing would require a past and a future" - but so does anything. Which means God does not exist, or he is static. Conscience, or at least mine, has nothing to do with religion or God. If I were to follow christianity, I would be plagued by my conscience to no end.

We're not talking about waking up, we're talking about the realisation of future and eternal agony, it's not somthing that God intended us to just 'brush off'. It's not a 'I'm gonna live new life' sorta thing, it's a 'God cared enough for me/you to suffer and die so that we could better understand Him and spiritual things in general, in a hope that His love for us would become real enough for us to choose His holiness/love/compassion over...the horrible alternative' sort of thing.

Not beliving in an afterlife means no eternity anywhere. I die, I'm gone. And Jesus wasn't God, he was a zombie mix of half God, half Gods illegitimate son. Oh, and a quick note for anyone who has seen Clerks, think the superman and wonder woman thingy scene. I'm sure you'll see the humor applied to this situation.

 

Please unserstand that despie basing my beliefs in Biblicly taught messages I'm also just trying to sound realistic here, because despite God's incredibly baffling existance there is much about Him that if based on His loving, just and infinitely merciful characteristics, just make sense.

Like war (especially those in his name), disease, poverty, jesus juice and Uwe Boll. Oh, I forgot, thats because of us. And our free will (oh the irony) is more important that his love, grace, justness and general good guy-factor. Not to mention it would go against his purpose for us. Nah, but seriously, that's kinda asking for it. God isn't primarily good.

Rampant failure will result in termination.

Is that a bible quote?


Edit:

I'm more comfortable with answering people's questions about Christianity rather than debating about it. This, however, doesn't include things such as "How do you know God exists?", because that's still a debate question.

When I debate religion, it's almost always to get answers to my questions and get a better understanding of it myself. Anything else is a bonus.

[Espadon]

Why do Christians require something as material as a Church? Isn't the Human heart in that capacity the best house for God?

The Church is the Body of Christ; it is the community of Christ-believing, God following Christians. A church is one of the many public, organizational, and physical manifestations of it. We need churches because they assist those in need of spiritual healing and guidance. Also, let's forget about religion just for a moment here - there's an excellent social aspect to it as well.

I'm more comfortable with answering people's questions about Christianity rather than debating about it. This, however, doesn't include things such as "How do you know God exists?", because that's still a debate question.

I see.

I used to be hardline athiest and anti-religious, but after doing some serious introspection I see the merits that religion can bear. I definitely wouldn't commit myself to any religion, but I now find being ignorantly anti- is just as bad as religious fundamentalism.

[Twistkill]

I see.

I used to be hardline athiest and anti-religious, but after doing some serious introspection I see the merits that religion can bear. I definitely wouldn't commit myself to any religion, but I now find being ignorantly anti- is just as bad as religious fundamentalism.

You, sir, are my newest friend.

[GSx_Major]

but I now find being ignorantly anti- is just as bad as religious fundamentalism.

I agree to an extent, but would you stand by that if taken literally?

[Mangled*]

The Church is the Body of Christ; the community of Christ-believing, God following Christians. A church is one of the many public, organizational, and physical manifestations of it. We need churches because they assist those in need of spiritual healing and guidance. Also, let's forget about religion for a moment here - there's an excellent social aspect to it as well.

Of course the social side to Christianity is no justification for believing it. But I know a couple of socially inept people who cling to Church groups like grass on a cliff face. Is that a good thing? The church has an agenda to promote Christianity and socially inept people make for very easy prey. Most of the Christians already in them generally attend because their parents think it's the 1950's and are paranoid about them falling in with a group of renegade bikers who snort coke.

[Espadon]

but I now find being ignorantly anti- is just as bad as religious fundamentalism.

I agree to an extent, but would you stand by that if taken literally?

If you take things so literally, isn't that reflective of your superficiality? Both fundamentalism and hardline athiesm are extremes with emphasis on the superficial aspects of religion and science, respectively. Visages can be twisted to suit one's need.

Yet both science and religion aim towards the direction of finding truth; they were but only two divergent roads towards the same goal for Humanity. Extremism is a step backwards, sacrificing insight and understanding for one's own agenda.

I don't wish to enter into your mire; take that as you will, but my opinions about religion are strictly the truths that I have found that work for me.

[Mangled*]

Yet both science and religion aim towards the direction of finding truth; they were but only two divergent roads towards the same goal for Humanity.

I have to dispute this part espadon. Science is about discovering the truth. Religion claims to be the truth. They are two entirely different things with two entirely different goals.

[Espadon]

Mangled, what sciences are you interested in? How deep is your education in those fields?

It was when I got to cosmology that the unprovable nature of strings and other quantum physical concepts opened my eyes that science could very much be as mystical as religion can be.

Science and religion are motivated by the one burning question of "why are we here?"

For some people it is very simple: we live to fuck and then die. Some other people look for a higher purpose, perhaps to help the world in some way. Can you say that because the second person believes in a more mystical purpose, that he is any less of a person than the former?

[LtKillroy]

*Official abstain* I hope I can manage.

[GSx_Major]

Was merely a comment on the effects of religious fundamentalism compared to the effects of ignorant anti religious...ism. Also, religion generally seems to have found the truth, God. A bit of red text tells me Mangled has already said that, though. Another said you have answered... Quite hectic, this is.

Yes, quantum physics is almost as messy as religion. The difference between science and religion, however, is that it has to match with the facts. Kinda vital, to me at least..

[Lord Frunkamunch]

For some people it is very simple: we live to fuck and then die. Some other people look for a higher purpose, perhaps to help the world in some way. Can you say that because the second person believes in a more mystical purpose, that he is any less of a person than the former?

Less of a person? Hardly. But while delusion offers a modicum of comfort, it cannot be taken seriously as a dammit what's the word I'm thinking of.

<my 2 cents>
In the long period between my Christianity and atheism, the only thing that kept my faith alive (as all of the other 'proofs' I'd previously fallen back on were shot down) was the thought that, even if I am wrong in my belief of God, at least the principles being promoted are positive ones. After listening to christian speakers from a more objective standpoint, I am now convinced of the opposite. The negative effects of religion are not as obvious, because they come wedged in with all of the ones that look great on the outside. (Love thy neighbor, do unto others, 10 commandments, etc.) What makes me sad, though, is the gradual breaking of the inductees. I've seen my friends wracked with guilt because they see it as their fault that a merciful god would doom people to hell because they didn't reach them fast enough. I've heard my own sister say that she wanted Hillary Clinton to fail, and when I asked why, she responded "Because she's a girl, and girls shouldn't lead". Every day, I see classmates doubt their faith, and then take it upon themselves; because questioning something of godly orgin is a sin of the flesh-not a sign of intelligence, not the only thing that prevents naive acceptance of every lie one is told, but a flaw, something to be prayed over and counseled away with by condescending adults who should know better, who should by now realize that in all of history nothing good has ever come of blind allegiance. But you can't blame the adults. They were brought up the same way, with anyone who dropped out of the religion game pitied as if they were the infantile ones for daring to question what they had no reason to believe. "Lost lambs, bound for hell no doubt. But hey, we tried, it's their own fault, asking for PROOF of god! After he went through all the trouble <despite being omnipotent> to send his only son to die on the cross!<and come back 3 days later unharmed>. It's sacrilegious, that's what it is. If you want proof, look in the bible. It's god's word! We know this because it says so, right here in the bible! Well, they clearly were never real Christians to begin with." Christianity is a self-regulating delusion, spawned in ignorance and perpetuated in the fear and guilt it inspires.

[N. Escalona]

I'm more comfortable with answering people's questions about Christianity rather than debating about it. This, however, doesn't include things such as "How do you know God exists?", because that's still a debate question.

I think this is an excellent idea. Besides, any debate that begins as a debate (rather than beginning as a question asked to the Christian) will quickly become a debate about fundamentals, and most of us I would expect to be immutable there. On the other hand, if the debate begins as a question, then most of the fundamentals of Christianity are assumed for the sake of discussion.

Of course the social side to Christianity is no justification for believing it.

Well, obviously. The question was about why the Church is an external institution on Earth. Not about why one should believe.

The difference between science and religion, however, is that it has to match with the facts. Kinda vital, to me at least..

Neither religion nor science have to match with the facts. Both science and religion are in some sense methods of gaining knowledge. This knowledge may either be true or false, regardless of whether it was obtained through science or religion.

[jettlarue]

Religion keeps some people sane, science does the same for others. Another group who do not give a f**k (hereby referred to as "cool people") are really the sane ones.(imo). For my beliefs either way if you cannot exist without knowing what is going on, then it seems you have lost track of what life is somewhere along the line. People that go scientific or religious and base their thoughts and ideals of how they and others should act; depending on your level of extremism it correlates directly with anti-thought. It seems so many people are spoon fed everything they know, I have just a few things I have truly learned, and each of them was such an accomplishment that I am still astounded I thought of them. Does it mean I am right? No. Do I think I am? Neither. And that is key. Realise you know nothing, but what you think you know. I have had broad experience with various religions(by experience I mean actually practicing), although this gives no more merit to my personal beliefs, it does show I have a general understanding of how various thought processes occur under each of them. I am now atheist, it suits me best. But I can say I was blissfully ignorantly happy when I was other religions(excluding buddhism which I think is a bomb way of life) once I came and had to face real life these weak ideas that someone else made started to break. They were not of my own creation and had a logical reason why they existed(there downfall for me). While as atheist I have no logical reason to be so, I am less happy. But there is no way to switch back once you realise it is all bulls**t, and you are mindraped. Luckily enough I have a decent enough life that I will not lie to myself to go back to Catholicism or Judaism. My 2 and a 1/2 cents.

EDIT: also, It is "impossible" for me to go to heaven if I wanted to according to Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10. They  all refer to the unforgivable sin of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." Which is an unforgivable sin. <--The only unforgivable sin.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

One thing that's always bugged me...Do people who have never heard of god go to hell when they die?

[Rai-Dei]

Nope, Purgatory. Eventually to Heaven.

Hell is only for people who want NOTHING to do with God, and do not accept him in anyway. You can have a change of heart on your deathbed and still go to Purgatory.

(If you make it to Purgatory you will ALWAYS go to Haven, though how long you stay depends.)