Official Religious Debate Thread

[JudgeMan]

What did life start at then?  If you try and trace evolution back, to the very beginning - you still gotta explain how the universe came about.  And then after that, how did life come about?

Why is it so hard to believe in evolution... You got water, in it you got molecules combining to create unicellular organisms then binary fission/mitosis kicks in and you get multi-cellular organisms.  They get more and more complex as they keep duplicating and you get basic worms and the likes.  They change to adapt to the environment they're in (water) so you start seeing the first fish etc. The rest is history.

Big news for you: you didn't spawn as a full grown baby in your mother's uterus. You started as a single fertilized egg that started to duplicate. Reminds you of something?  Oh yes, evolution!  Stuff don't appear fully made and finished.

Also, the origin of the universe has nothing to do with the evolution of life on earth.

[Platehead]

You got water

From...?

Big news for you: you didn't spawn as a full grown baby in your mother's uterus. You started as a single fertilized egg that started to duplicate. Reminds you of something?  Oh yes, evolution!  Stuff don't appear fully made and finished.

That's called growing.  It's simple cell division.  I am a human, and have always been one.  Just because I grew doesn't mean I evolved into something else. 

Also, the origin of the universe has nothing to do with the evolution of life on earth.

Evolution cannot explain the origin of the universe, whereas the existence of God can simply explain this.

Many animals have many complex functions that only work if 2 or more parts perfectly work together - does this not disprove that for survival animals can slowly evolve?  An example is the giraffe, the long neck is required for eating high leaves.  The heart is very strong to pump the blood up to its brain.  When it bends down to drink, blood would rush down the neck and this would severly damage its brain.  So in its neck, spigots are built in to stop this from happening once the giraffe lowers its neck.  Say it's had enough, now it's rising back up for some lunch.  The restricted blood flow to its brain would once again cause problems.  But a mechanism that acts as a sponge built in behind its brain sucks up some blood so that when it raises its head, the brain still has enough blood while the spigots open up allowing the blood to pump strongly as normal.  Three things that work in perfect cooperation - the strong heart, the valves which open and close according to the neck's incline and the sponge.  Evolution can't explain how three parts such as these can suddenly come about...

That's just an example. 

[JudgeMan]

You got water

From...?

Water

Big news for you: you didn't spawn as a full grown baby in your mother's uterus. You started as a single fertilized egg that started to duplicate. Reminds you of something?  Oh yes, evolution!  Stuff don't appear fully made and finished.

That's called growing.  It's simple cell division.  I am a human, and have always been one.  Just because I grew doesn't mean I evolved into something else. 

More of an example as of things don't spawn out of nothing; but how can such simple things as a sperm and an ovary can combine, evolve (because afaik, a fertilized ovary is NOT a human yet) and end up as a baby with intelligence, consciousness, etc?  This is way too complex to be done by nature!?! God must be acting on all pregnant woman in the world to make this happen you're right...

Also, the origin of the universe has nothing to do with the evolution of life on earth.

Evolution cannot explain the origin of the universe, whereas the existence of God can simply explain this.

Many animals have many complex functions that only work if 2 or more parts perfectly work together - does this not disprove that for survival animals can slowly evolve? [...]   Evolution can't explain how three parts such as these can suddenly come about...

That's just an example. 

Evolution cannot explain the origin of the universe because evolution HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE. They're two completely different and separate things.

As for the giraffe, some animal didn't evolve into an giraffe over night. Evolution is a slow process and it's been going on for million of years.  There has been recent cases of really rapid evolution by some small fish and crustacean adapting to fast changing environment and/or other factors.

Why evolution couldn't explain complex bio-mechanisms to come about? Why not? If a sperm and an ovary can end up as a full grown intelligent human in 20 years, why can't those primary unicellular organisms evolve to everything we know over hundreds of million years?

Why god would create an universe ~14 billion light years big when we cannot even remotely think about even leaving our solar system? What a waste.  Unless it doesn't really exist uh?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

The greater irony I find is in people who don't believe in God trying so very hard to find a scientific explanation to things like this, when they can be simply explained by God.

I'm a Christian, and I still think this is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.  Humans are on a constant quest for understanding.  Just giving up and saying "I can't explain it so it must be magic" (which is essentially what you have them saying) is one of the most ignorant approaches possible.  Yes, God exists and yes, he's active in this world.  However, something is not necessarily "God" just because we currently don't have an explanation for it.

[excruciator]

The greater irony I find is in people who don't believe in God trying so very hard to find a scientific explanation to things like this, when they can be simply explained by God.

I'm a Christian, and I still think this is one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.  Humans are on a constant quest for understanding.
 

But god is an explaination by itself. So why didn't Christians give up?
Guess their faith isn't strong enough.

[danmer]

a sperm and an ovary can end up as a full grown intelligent human in 20 years

not always


@ Platehead: have you read the bible?

[STM1993]

It is true that many things can be explained by the existence of a creator, but does the creator make our world work by playing it like we do in Sim games, or does he create it and then mainly leave it to work on its own? I would say it's the latter, and we're discovering how the world is made to work, while trying to use this as a way to prove the existence or non-existence of a creator.

[danmer]

It is true that many things can be explained by the existence of a creator, but does the creator make our world work by playing it like we do in Sim games, or does he create it and then mainly leave it to work on its own? I would say it's the latter, and we're discovering how the world is made to work, while trying to use this as a way to prove the existence or non-existence of a creator.

so you're saying he got bored and is just messing with us? Watching your creations kill themselves is a very entertaining activity indeed.

[STM1993]

so you're saying he got bored and is just messing with us? Watching your creations kill themselves is a very entertaining activity indeed.

Maybe, maybe not - that depends on the nature of God, whether He is a perfect being or not. All I can say is that, we're given the gift of free will and we therefore have a choice whether we kill ourselves or do something else. We can't really blame God, because it is our free will that led us to all these, and we're in a way forcing God to watch His creations kill themselves. Whether He does something or not, depends on whether He is active or passive, or He has already done something which we may not be able to see or appreciate or understand.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Maybe, maybe not - that depends on the nature of God, whether He is a perfect being or not.

When you're omnipotent, you define perfection.  Anything good is something you approve of; anything evil is something you don't.  Therefore, it goes without saying that God is perfect.  After all, how can there be a moral code that's greater than God?

[STM1993]

^ That can also backfire in some sense. If God was an evil omnipotent someone, his evil ways would be defined as perfect, so when we try to follow the morals we have right now, we would be against him, but if we did what we are told to be as sins, that would be supporting him.

[excruciator]

I think we said a long time ago that God is not omnipotent, ohhh well.

God seems like your average superhero. Only difference is that some people believe that it actually exists.

[Veritas]

I think we said a long time ago that God is not omnipotent, ohhh well.

The problem is when people think God is omnipotent and gives us free will, which pretty well falls apart if you apply some semblance of rational thinking.

[Smegma]

I think we said a long time ago that God is not omnipotent, ohhh well.

God seems like your average superhero. Only difference is that some people believe that it actually exists.

This is why you are an atheist.

[excruciator]

I think we said a long time ago that God is not omnipotent, ohhh well.

The problem is when people think God is omnipotent and gives us free will, which pretty well falls apart if you apply some semblance of rational thinking.

I was thinking more that God was bounded by logic, but that is true too.

[Smegma]

I was thinking more that God was bounded by logic, but that is true too.

Logically, this is false.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

^ That can also backfire in some sense. If God was an evil omnipotent someone, his evil ways would be defined as perfect, so when we try to follow the morals we have right now, we would be against him, but if we did what we are told to be as sins, that would be supporting him.

Except the thing about evil is that it's often (if not always) a twisting or misapplication of good.  It's alright to be pleased that you did a good job, for example, but when you think you're special because of it, the evil of pride comes into play.  It's alright to love and have sex, but when you do that out of the specified boundaries, you're sinning.  Contentment is fine; gluttony is not.  Evil is always derived from good, which means that the source of good must be stronger than the source of evil.  Therefore, we're back to where we started with the most powerful being defining good, only now we can logically conclude that that definition is what we live by today.

I think we said a long time ago that God is not omnipotent, ohhh well.

The problem is when people think God is omnipotent and gives us free will, which pretty well falls apart if you apply some semblance of rational thinking.

The problem is when people think that omnipotent means all-controlling.  Just because you have the power to enforce your will doesn't mean you have to.  Let's say I'm a parent and I tell my kid not to play in the street.  It's still his choice to obey me or not, even if technically I have the power to tie him to a tree or something to force him to do my will.  In the same way, just because God is CAPABLE of doing anything he wants doesn't mean he HAS to do those things.

[excruciator]

I was thinking more that God was bounded by logic, but that is true too.

Logically, this is false.

Explain

[Platehead]

God being bounded by something doesn't make sense in itself... if you believe there's a God, then you can't limit Him to what your brain can comprehend.  If you don't believe there's a God, you can't be in a position to limit something you don't believe exists.

[Smegma]

I was thinking more that God was bounded by logic, but that is true too.

Logically, this is false.

Explain

Then logic is greater than God.