Official Religious Debate Thread

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Hey all you who know that God doesn't exist, There's no point in discussing with these idiots, they have got the facts and everything, but they still believe the bullshit.
well ok, Ill give you something to use your brain on:
1. There are MANY different religions in the world, why should exactly Christianity be true?
2. You think you are christian but you don't even know what Christians really stand for, Christians believe in angels for example, do you believe in angels too, or is it starting to sound like a fairytale allready?
3. Just because it can't be ''prooven'' that there isn't a god, doesn't mean there IS a god, and you have no proof there is a god do you? Something else would be MUCH more likely.

Can I hear some good reason why you believe in god? (not because your mom told you to.) for example: ''God spoke to me'' - Oreally? how, and where's the proof?

But really, THERE IS NO GOD, and that's why religious people makes no sense. They can't explain why we are here, and neither can I, but I don't make things up! Adults with imaginary friends are SCARED of being alone and afraid of the unknown, they need a reason, so they make it up. Where's the fucking proof you faggots

1) Christianity is very distinct from other religions.  Most, if not all, other religions require you to earn your way into heaven.  Christianity accepts that we're flawed and will only get into the proper afterlife through the grace of God.  When you think about it, doesn't that make sense? We love God for his benevolence; what do we need God for if we can get into heaven on our own? Christianity is also unique in how it describes our relationship with God.  We're substantially closer to him than other religions allow for, and that's a very attractive concept to me.  All other religions are simply a set of guidelines to follow; Christianity is about actually forging a relationship with God.

2) Yes, I believe in both angels and demons.  I believe in a young earth and a seven day creation.  I believe that Jesus was sent to earth as a physical manifestation of God, and that his death and subsequent resurrection freed anyone who accepts it from sin.  I believe that the Holy Spirit exists as an interface between man and God.  Why do I believe all of this? Because the Bible backs it, and if I'm going to base my religion on a book, I have no right to pick and choose which parts I like and which parts I don't.  That's no religion at all.

3) The best I can say is that I have no proof that you'll accept.  It's been proven to me that God exists through my interactions with him and his influences on me.  Unfortunately, it's one of those "seek and you shall find" deals.  It's like seeing objects in the clouds or understanding abstract art.  It's like one of those optical illusions that can be seen two ways, and someone points out the second way to you.  It's like knowing what color is because you aren't blind.  You know what it is, and you can recognize it, but you can only recognize it because you've experienced it.  I guess you could say it's the difference between theory and practice.

Why do I believe in God? Some of it is personal experience, like what happens when I pray, how scripture speaks to me, and so on.  But I also admit there's a large part of it that's simply a very nice concept.  You may remember Vijchti's signature: "I sometimes wish I was a theist so I could thank someone for beautiful days like this."  Well, for me, God IS that person I can thank.  He's the one I can be grateful to for all the good that's happened in my life and in the world.  He's the one I can turn to when I'm going through troubled times.  He's the one who can give me answers when I'm feeling unfulfilled.  He's a very, very large component in my life, and I have a great deal of trouble imagining how I could live life if it was as meaningless as a Godless universe would imply.

If God doesn't exist, then I've wasted probably 100 years on Earth for believing in Him. Then again, if God exists, then I've an eternity wasted for not believing in Him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

[iDante]

Mr. Gamer_2k4, I think that you are fairly sound in just about all that you said, except for one point:

2) Yes, I believe in both angels and demons.  I believe in a young earth and a seven day creation.  I believe that Jesus was sent to earth as a physical manifestation of God, and that his death and subsequent resurrection freed anyone who accepts it from sin.  I believe that the Holy Spirit exists as an interface between man and God.  Why do I believe all of this? Because the Bible backs it, and if I'm going to base my religion on a book, I have no right to pick and choose which parts I like and which parts I don't.  That's no religion at all.

I don't like it when people take the bible literally, especially the old testament.
Take Leviticus 20:13 for example (King James translation):

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Should all gay people be put to death simply because the bible commands it? The bible is full of things ranging from Machiavellian rules on when you are responsible for killing your slaves after beating them to how you shouldn't wear certain types of clothes on certain days. Should they all be taken literally?
I would bring up the day-age theory, but that seems to have a lot of hate these days. Google it if interested, the idea is that the bible is full of mistranslations that have caused lots of problems when they are taken literally.
Also the young earth theory is impossible, unless all science that we have now is simply wrong. Ask geo for some science-y stuff, I'm sure he can explain radioactive dating and the like better than me.

Oh one other thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

That is selfish. That is believing in god for a reward, not for the act of being loved or whatever else. However you seem like the respectable type of Christian, so I'll just take this as a minor slip.

[STM1993]

I don't like it when people take the bible literally, especially the old testament.
Take Leviticus 20:13 for example (King James translation):

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Should all gay people be put to death simply because the bible commands it? The bible is full of things ranging from Machiavellian rules on when you are responsible for killing your slaves after beating them to how you shouldn't wear certain types of clothes on certain days. Should they all be taken literally?
I would bring up the day-age theory, but that seems to have a lot of hate these days. Google it if interested, the idea is that the bible is full of mistranslations that have caused lots of problems when they are taken literally.

The bible has it that, if one were to commit such an act, it'd be a sin. In the old testament, Jesus hasn't come yet, so anyone who was to disobey the commandments were to be punished immediately as our sins aren't forgiven yet - it was done literally back then. It wasn't about faith then, it was about rules. However, after Jesus died on the cross for our sins, a new covenant has been established, and we are all forgiven by the grace of God so long as we believe in Him and Jesus. Deeds would become secondary to faith, though naturally your faith would affect your deeds.

So, right now, doesn't matter if one is a gay or whatever (since we're all sinners anyway), but so long as he believes in God and is rich in faith, he can be saved. Of course, having faith is not a license to sin, if one can resist sin, then one should, since God judges by our own individual capability. Ultimately, the price of sin would no longer be paid in life, it'd be paid in the afterlife with God handling that; we don't need to carry out those punishments (who are we to judge others anyway?), we just need to understand that such is a sinful activity we should avoid doing.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

For me, Pascal's Wager falls into the same category as chain letters. If you copy and paste this message onto 5 different message boards and press f5, the only thing you have to lose lose is your dignity, right? But if you don't do so within 14 minutes, your mom might die! Is that a risk you're willing to take?

[n00bface]

Pascal's wager is also stupid because the argument is that nothing is lost by believing.

The problem is that believing is not easy without a doctrine, and none of these fucking doctrines condone my sodomy, premarital sex, and abortions!

[Smegma]

1) Christianity is very distinct from other religions.  Most, if not all, other religions require you to earn your way into heaven.  Christianity accepts that we're flawed and will only get into the proper afterlife through the grace of God.  When you think about it, doesn't that make sense? We love God for his benevolence; what do we need God for if we can get into heaven on our own? Christianity is also unique in how it describes our relationship with God.  We're substantially closer to him than other religions allow for, and that's a very attractive concept to me.  All other religions are simply a set of guidelines to follow; Christianity is about actually forging a relationship with God.

1. Other religions believe this, not all sects of each one, but most major religions have some ideal as such.
2. All major religions describe many different forms of connection to God, and most of them all just mean the same thing, or vary only between their view on where God's Dominion.
3. 10 Commandments? They are still touted

I don't like it when people take the bible literally, especially the old testament.
Take Leviticus 20:13 for example (King James translation):

Open you're third Eye.

Why do I believe in God?

I'd like to answer this as well. According to the apparent reality, God is merely the most logical thing to believe in, though its still easy to view the world without God...nothing changes.

[GSx_Major]

Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest scepticism?

If you want to believe in a God, make it a constructive god.

Christianity is very distinct from other religions.  Most, if not all, other religions require you to earn your way into heaven.  Christianity accepts that we're flawed and will only get into the proper afterlife through the grace of God.  When you think about it, doesn't that make sense? We love God for his benevolence; what do we need God for if we can get into heaven on our own? Christianity is also unique in how it describes our relationship with God.  We're substantially closer to him than other religions allow for, and that's a very attractive concept to me.  All other religions are simply a set of guidelines to follow; Christianity is about actually forging a relationship with God.

What a shocker, turns out you have no idea what you're talking about.

[excruciator]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

For me, Pascal's Wager falls into the same category as chain letters. If you copy and paste this message onto 5 different message boards and press f5, the only thing you have to lose lose is your dignity, right? But if you don't do so within 14 minutes, your mom might die! Is that a risk you're willing to take?

Well said.


What if God is actually evil? And he will punish everyone that is making him look bad(Good) and send all worshipers to "hell" while doing nothing to the atheists?

[ValiS]

The Ultimate Conclusion:

This is Soldat Forums.

If god would play soldat, it would use hax (miracles in RL).

Votekick god.

F12

edit: I don´t mean MM.

[excruciator]

The Ultimate Conclusion:

This is Soldat Forums.

Was that a blinding flash of obviousness?

Also, thank you for the vital contribution to this thread.

[Smegma]

What if God is actually evil? And he will punish everyone that is making him look bad(Good) and send all worshipers to "hell" while doing nothing to the atheists?

God is evil.

[ValiS]

The Ultimate Conclusion:

This is Soldat Forums.

Was that a blinding flash of obviousness?

Also, thank you for the vital contribution to this thread.

You`re welcome, but please dont quote me out of context, it`s not nice at all.
I may edit this post with a more suitable contribution if i feel like it some time soon, although someone will be pissed anyway, no matter what I say.
Anyway people dont take this god dude so seriously, im sure whoever thought of it first didnt imagine how out of proportion this thing would blow.

[~Niko~]

I still don't get how such a simple belief can split up the people so much.

Because after all this hasn't been proved in the last 2000 years, will you continue trying to prove it? All you do is to waste your time badly. Go do some sport. Yeah. You will feel better.

[Smegma]

Maybe it's not as simple as you expect it to be.

[eurasianbro]

I'm surprised this thread didn't turn into something extremely ugly and it's become a rather mature conversation, good job guys. It's kinda cool you're all willing to talk about this stuff on a Soldat Forum too, there's certainly some deep stuff here. Keep it up.

[eurasianbro]

I don't like it when people take the bible literally, especially the old testament.
Take Leviticus 20:13 for example (King James translation):

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Should all gay people be put to death simply because the bible commands it? The bible is full of things ranging from Machiavellian rules on when you are responsible for killing your slaves after beating them to how you shouldn't wear certain types of clothes on certain days. Should they all be taken literally?
I would bring up the day-age theory, but that seems to have a lot of hate these days. Google it if interested, the idea is that the bible is full of mistranslations that have caused lots of problems when they are taken literally.

The bible has it that, if one were to commit such an act, it'd be a sin. In the old testament, Jesus hasn't come yet, so anyone who was to disobey the commandments were to be punished immediately as our sins aren't forgiven yet - it was done literally back then. It wasn't about faith then, it was about rules. However, after Jesus died on the cross for our sins, a new covenant has been established, and we are all forgiven by the grace of God so long as we believe in Him and Jesus. Deeds would become secondary to faith, though naturally your faith would affect your deeds.

So, right now, doesn't matter if one is a gay or whatever (since we're all sinners anyway), but so long as he believes in God and is rich in faith, he can be saved. Of course, having faith is not a license to sin, if one can resist sin, then one should, since God judges by our own individual capability. Ultimately, the price of sin would no longer be paid in life, it'd be paid in the afterlife with God handling that; we don't need to carry out those punishments (who are we to judge others anyway?), we just need to understand that such is a sinful activity we should avoid doing.

Btw, you should watch some of those Hitchens/D'Souza Debates, they're pretty insightful. Also, about taking the bible literally, I think it's almost always a failure because none of use are reading the real scriptures anyways - but translations of a whole line of translations which contain so many different connotations, expressions, and sayings that would only have made sense to the people at the time. We must do with what we have of course, but take for example the mistake with the Red Sea which was actually the Reed Sea... there's a lot we haven't figured out about the original meaning of even the names and words used in the texts.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Pascal's Wager isn't necessarily what I think is the right approach (and in fact, it most definitely isn't).  It's just what I thought was a good expounding of what STM1993 was saying.

As far as the killing gays thing, I'll stick with STM's answer.  Homosexuality is still a sin according to the Bible, but so is lust, and I know I'm guilty of that.  Technically, every sin is punishable by death, which is the whole reason that Jesus came to earth: to die so we wouldn't have to.  Do I consider homosexuality to be a sin? Yes.  Is it my place to pass judgment? Not at all.

but take for example the mistake with the Red Sea which was actually the Reed Sea...

I don't really know the details about that, but I do think it's a bit odd that we find chariot wheels in the RED Sea if it didn't take place there.

[jrgp]

When it all comes to reality, practicality, safety, and facts....should this label be on all future copies?

[GSx_Major]

The chariot wheels mentioned are in fact a few blurry picture and the guy who "found" them is the same guy who "found" Noahs ark, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, the original stones of the Ten Commandments and the list goes on... The same guy who at one point after close examination declared a modern concrete column to be an ancient artifact. Simply put a guy who saw Jesus hiding around every corner and Moses sneaking around in the corner of his eye.

I just wanted to mention that since you've obviously got it wrong.


And as someone already said, it wasn't about the Red Sea. So you might as well go looking for chariot wheels in the english channel.

[soulblade]

IMO, believing in anything without evidence is idiotic.

Solving problems and questions is just the way we are. By doing this we've arrived at where we are now: A means of communicating with each other worldwide; cures for countless diseases and an abundance of food and water in most countries.

If there IS a God then he has designed us the way we are. Why would we be punished for doing what we are programmed to do?

This may be the only life we have, so why waste it worshipping something we have no proof for?
Alot of people will base their belief on personal experiences etc. Well it would seem a bit strange to me that some god would treat some people differently to others. Surely we should all have these personal experiences and then wouldn't that lead to us all believing in God?

Another reason people believe in God is to do with creation.
E.g. The universe is so immensely complicated, heck even a blade of grass is. This must be evidence for a great designer- aka God.
If God created all the universe then who created God? You could then argue that God has always been there and always will be there. However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

There's my 2 cents.