Official Religious Debate Thread

[homerofgods]

IMO, believing in anything without evidence is idiotic.

Solving problems and questions is just the way we are. By doing this we've arrived at where we are now: A means of communicating with each other worldwide; cures for countless diseases and an abundance of food and water in most countries.

If there IS a God then he has designed us the way we are. Why would we be punished for doing what we are programmed to do?

This may be the only life we have, so why waste it worshipping something we have no proof for?
Alot of people will base their belief on personal experiences etc. Well it would seem a bit strange to me that some god would treat some people differently to others. Surely we should all have these personal experiences and then wouldn't that lead to us all believing in God?

Another reason people believe in God is to do with creation.
E.g. The universe is so immensely complicated, heck even a blade of grass is. This must be evidence for a great designer- aka God.
If God created all the universe then who created God? You could then argue that God has always been there and always will be there. However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

There's my 2 cents.

This post didn't seem that smart to me, you point out a few things and twist them.
The bible is proof enough for them, and they believe men has to choose between right or wrong, you're not supposed to say: Hey god made me evil.
But I forgive you, the reason it's difficult to say: (If this, why that) .. is that everything is bullshit from the beginning. 
Religion have a good things like comfort, an explanation, and the general rule to be a good person. It's like dumb people who don't know how stupid they are, how alone we are, and that we are animals, and therefore happy.
anyway, to hell with this discussion, what's gonna change anyway, they allready got the facts.

[Demonic]

To toy with another line of thought, if there exists an omnipotent God, and things go as he wishes, with a final deadline to it all, an end of the world with a second coming of the lord...

...then that God is guilty of letting all the horrors happen on Earth, natural or man made. Omnipotence and being beyond logic dictates that shifting the blame over us does not go together with the image of a loving creator, especially with the choices of either total annihilation/hell on one side and grace on the other.

Going on further, if with all the horrors we did and yet still came far, when he comes down to judge us - after letting things go the ways they did - it would be our best option to put up a fight. No choir of angels or coming hell has the right to judge humanity, not after thousands of years of isolation.

[homerofgods]

O.o
Only you god-lovers can understand what Demonic is talking about right? And why does it feel like I just red the Davinci Code or seomething?
you'r saying develish things arn't you..

[Smegma]

Omnipotence and being beyond logic dictates that shifting the blame over us does not go together with the image of a loving creator, especially with the choices of either total annihilation/hell on one side and grace on the other.

Wait, What?!

[excruciator]

The bible is proof enough for them

50th hand unverified anecdotes...
Yes...proof...

[Snow]

It's amazing that there is still such a heated debate about religion, even today with all the things we know. We are to this universe as a single atom is to our solar system. We are the size of a spec of nothing. If there is a god, we are not that special. I'm still amazed however at the sheer arrogance of most of mankind, that we are still some sort of special being - number one to a being that created a universe so large, that man will cease to exist, before even learning of 99.9999999999999% of it.

Some atheists have said that religion developed from man's fear of death. Now, many people believe there is some sort of after life and that the purpose of your mortal life on Earth, is to live a life that will be rewarded with eternity in a good afterlife.

I DO believe in a higher being, but it ends there. I think, since I have a brain and if God truly created me - he or she is smart enough and kind enough to let me figure out MYSELF what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. I think I do nothing wrong, by trying to life my life as best I can and enjoy all that this planet has to offer. If there is no god, well, either way, trying to live a good life and be kind and respectful is still beneficial.

Don't fear death, and the picture becomes clearer. I don't fear death, but I live a happy life. If I ended up actually going to Hell for eternity, (which sure would prove there is a God), then well, God, had no right to create me and is a god that Demonic described. On Fox news a while ago, there was a segment about a woman from a small family Baptist church, who with her fellow cultists, would go ruin funerals of soldiers. She kept referring to the "terror" of God. If I feared my parents and my dad was a "terror" to me, I would have nothing to do with them.

Also, who is to say that this God is all good and forgiving. How can anyone ask to have faith in a being that created me, but I know very little about. Who is God? Where did he or she come from? Could God one day get tired of the whole Heaven and Hell bit and just wipe the slate clean and start over with a whole different universe or type of existence? Eternity is a very long long time. If I was a god, I dunno if I could do the same thing for all Eternity. God created time. What does eternity mean? A physical place of some kind that has limitless energy forever? Or is it an existence that repeats. In the universe, the time/space continuum is warped. Time, according to Hawking (spelling correct?) isn't linear. There are theories about the 5th and 6th dimension, where different points in time could possibly intersect because of the non-linearity.

Another thing about religion, is that it is quite clear, it was used as a tool of fear in the past. Promoting a fear of the supernatural, helped in keeping order and enforcing rules. "Perhaps, we cannot persuade you do do away with your deviant sexual desires (because, we're ugly old men who never got any and never will), with our mortal weapons and fire, but, God can come down and smite your ass off the face of the planet, no prob. So you better follow the (OUR) rules. Oh and we'll just torture you too by ripping off your testicles, destroying your vagina and uterus with white-hot sharp objects, stretching you on the rack for as long as 9 days while you starve to death in brutal agony - finished off by having rats eat through your stomach or pour molten lead down your throat... ALL in the name of God." Due to this religion became organized, structured and there came much more stricter rules to abide by. What astounds me to this day is that even though, in this modern age, many within these religions know this, but still follow rules which are hundreds of years old that were only there to CONTROL the society at the time. That, coupled with the ferocious belief in the afterlife (due to fear of dying), just makes religion an utter hippocracy... which, again, many are aware of, but still afraid, I guess.

If there is a God and God gave us life, we should not live in fear of anything. If you live your life in fear, you are not living at all, instead, you're simply waiting to die.

Well... I guess, I kind of have my foot in my mouth - pondering as to why there is still a debate. The above is my view. I do believe in a God and being a good person (whether or not, God exists). I'm also angry and will always be defiant to many churches and cults. I'm angry that so many innocents died - in the name of God. I'm angry, that despite this knowledge and that in this modern age, we are smarter and know so much more than our trembling predecessors, that these same institutions still hold such a death grip, and that so many are so blindly faithful. You won't get in trouble for asking a question or two, especially if it concerns your own existence and how you desire to live your OWN life.

[Smegma]

It's amazing that there is still such a heated debate about religion, even today with all the things we know. We are to this universe as a single atom is to our solar system. We are the size of a spec of nothing. If there is a god, we are not that special. I'm still amazed however at the sheer arrogance of most of mankind, that we are still some sort of special being - number one to a being that created a universe so large, that man will cease to exist, before even learning of 99.9999999999999% of it.

No one ever said Religion was about feeling special, in fact, its far from it. So we only know < 0.0000000000001% and we still "know all [these] things". Surely, then, we have enough knowledge to safely say God is nonexistent.

Some atheists have said that religion developed from man's fear of death. Now, many people believe there is some sort of after life and that the purpose of your mortal life on Earth, is to live a life that will be rewarded with eternity in a good afterlife.

Well, clearly this shows what religion is truly about right?

I DO believe in a higher being, but it ends there. I think, since I have a brain and if God truly created me - he or she is smart enough and kind enough to let me figure out MYSELF what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. I think I do nothing wrong, by trying to life my life as best I can and enjoy all that this planet has to offer. If there is no god, well, either way, trying to live a good life and be kind and respectful is still beneficial.

Most philosophies of religion extend beyond a simple "deeds" or "rules" of God. They are merely laid out for those who do not yet share an intimate connection with Truth/God. You must look beyond these to understand the real point of religions.

Also, who is to say that this God is all good and forgiving. How can anyone ask to have faith in a being that created me, but I know very little about. Who is God? Where did he or she come from? Could God one day get tired of the whole Heaven and Hell bit and just wipe the slate clean and start over with a whole different universe or type of existence? Eternity is a very long long time. If I was a god, I dunno if I could do the same thing for all Eternity. God created time. What does eternity mean? A physical place of some kind that has limitless energy forever? Or is it an existence that repeats. In the universe, the time/space continuum is warped. Time, according to Hawking (spelling correct?) isn't linear. There are theories about the 5th and 6th dimension, where different points in time could possibly intersect because of the non-linearity.

First, most mystics only denote God as "All Good" because it seems to be the most fitting description they can muster, though ultimately failing. You take these description much too literally to analyze. The basis for these accusations hold no bearing because of the nature of God and therefore any description is inaccurate (while still remaining true).

Eternity does not care about time.

Another thing about religion, is that it is quite clear, it was used as a tool of fear in the past. Promoting a fear of the supernatural, helped in keeping order and enforcing rules. "Perhaps, we cannot persuade you do do away with your deviant sexual desires (because, we're ugly old men who never got any and never will), with our mortal weapons and fire, but, God can come down and smite your ass off the face of the planet, no prob. So you better follow the (OUR) rules. Oh and we'll just torture you too by ripping off your testicles, destroying your vagina and uterus with white-hot sharp objects, stretching you on the rack for as long as 9 days while you starve to death in brutal agony - finished off by having rats eat through your stomach or pour molten lead down your throat... ALL in the name of God." Due to this religion became organized, structured and there came much more stricter rules to abide by. What astounds me to this day is that even though, in this modern age, many within these religions know this, but still follow rules which are hundreds of years old that were only there to CONTROL the society at the time. That, coupled with the ferocious belief in the afterlife (due to fear of dying), just makes religion an utter hippocracy... which, again, many are aware of, but still afraid, I guess.

The lack of piety in man does not conclude a lack of piety in religion.  It makes the men the hypocritical one. Truth does not care for the actions of man.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

To toy with another line of thought, if there exists an omnipotent God, and things go as he wishes, with a final deadline to it all, an end of the world with a second coming of the lord...

...then that God is guilty of letting all the horrors happen on Earth, natural or man made. Omnipotence and being beyond logic dictates that shifting the blame over us does not go together with the image of a loving creator, especially with the choices of either total annihilation/hell on one side and grace on the other.

Here's the thing.  The full extent of something is defined only by its opposite.  How can something be hard unless there are other things that are soft? How can something be hot unless there are other things that are cold?  And furthermore, how can there be good without evil? How can there be grace without a falling? How can there be joy without sadness? It is in allowing these negative emotions and actions through free will that God brings out the positive ones.  If there was no hardship, that wouldn't make the remainder all butterflies and rainbows.  It would just BE.  And if no matter what actions you take, you never cause any negative effects (and conversely, no positive ones either), that's not even close to living! That's like...what a rock does or something.  And I don't know about you, but I'd much rather take the bad with the good than living an apathetic, emotionless, insignificant, meaningless life.

Going on further, if with all the horrors we did and yet still came far, when he comes down to judge us - after letting things go the ways they did - it would be our best option to put up a fight. No choir of angels or coming hell has the right to judge humanity, not after thousands of years of isolation.

If you step back and consider that statement, you might realize it's one of the most foolish things that could be said about this topic.  What are you going to fight God with? Guns? Fire? Telekinesis? If there is a God, he's far, far, far above such things.  There's no fighting God.  Second, if you create something, you have the right to do what you want with it.  Whether or not that creation accepts or agrees with your actions is irrelevant; that's just the way things are.

[tehsnipah]

Wow, this is actually very serious.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just want to say something about religion.

Some of the "Korean" churches I visit with my friend; they're either too dramatic or too "jokeish". I see people crying crazy when they say and listen to prayers, and I hear people playing hard rock/rock for prayers. Now I shouldn't offend my own race, but damn, Korean church is waaay out of the tradition of the old way.

[Veritas]

However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

The universe itself has always been there. To make the argument short: Time cannot exist without the universe (read up on spacetime on Wikipedia), thus the universe has always been here. It's been here for a finite amount of time, but that's always.

I'll parse the rest of the topic tomorrow, gotta sleep.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

The universe itself has always been there. To make the argument short: Time cannot exist without the universe (read up on spacetime on Wikipedia), thus the universe has always been here. It's been here for a finite amount of time, but that's always.

To be perfectly accurate, it would be better to say that the universe has existed as long as time has.  Therefore, anything existing "before" the universe would have to be an entity for which "before" has no meaning (that is, it exists irrespective of time).

[GSx_Major]

However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

The universe itself has always been there. To make the argument short: Time cannot exist without the universe (read up on spacetime on Wikipedia), thus the universe has always been here. It's been here for a finite amount of time, but that's always.

I'll parse the rest of the topic tomorrow, gotta sleep.

Did you learn nothing from the general theory of relativity?

[Veritas]

To be perfectly accurate, it would be better to say that the universe has existed as long as time has.

I'd say that's a pretty good definition of "always."

However, with the same way of thinking it is just as plausible that the universe itself has always been there and that there is no God- just the universe.

The universe itself has always been there. To make the argument short: Time cannot exist without the universe (read up on spacetime on Wikipedia), thus the universe has always been here. It's been here for a finite amount of time, but that's always.

I'll parse the rest of the topic tomorrow, gotta sleep.

Did you learn nothing from the general theory of relativity?

Feel free to actually expand on what the problem with that statement is, because you're not giving me much to work with here.

[GSx_Major]

Feel free to actually expand on what the problem with that statement is, because you're not giving me much to work with here.

Time(s)

A Brief History of Time has a good chapter about it.

[Veritas]

Feel free to actually expand on what the problem with that statement is, because you're not giving me much to work with here.

Time(s)

A Brief History of Time has a good chapter about it.

...I still have no idea where you're trying to go with this.

[AntiHero]

Wait....

Feel free to actually expand on what the problem with that statement is, because you're not giving me much to work with here.

Time(s)

Agreed
A Brief History of Time has a good chapter about it.

...I still have no idea where you're trying to go with this.

Double post fixed, please remember to watch for these
-Smegma

[iDante]

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html
Just an interesting little finding.

[excruciator]

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html
Just an interesting little finding.

I saw this article today at digg. Good stuff.

No religion, no zealots.

[The Geologist]

Oh god, numbers.

[Smegma]

http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html
Just an interesting little finding.

I saw this article today at digg. Good stuff.

No religion, no zealots.

Did you even read the article? As well, this article is biased by grouping all people who claim to be religious through rituals.