Official Religious Debate Thread

[Farah]

but god wants to be hidden...because if we fully understood the nature of god then there'd be nothing to believe in! fideism ftw!

[ds dude]

but god wants to be hidden...because if we fully understood the nature of god then there'd be nothing to believe in! fideism ftw!

If we fully understood god then we would have to still believe in order to go of heaven.

It's not like you can say "Well.. I think I'll go to heaven.. I've done some nice deeds etc).

You honestly have to put 100% into god in order to heaven, and somehow the bible tells you how to get there.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Well...maybe there's something to what Farah's saying, though it's not what he intended.  How can you fully understand omnipotence except through being omnipotent yourself?

Of course, that puts a new spin on things: God's not "hiding" because he's afraid that we'll become like him, but rather, because it's impossible for us to be like him, parts of him will always remain hidden.

[Farah]

i was making fun of that very viewpoint lawgamer...
gj missing that both of you

[Smegma]

but god wants to be hidden...because if we fully understood the nature of god then there'd be nothing to believe in! fideism ftw!

If we fully understood god then we would have to still believe in order to go of heaven.

It's not like you can say "Well.. I think I'll go to heaven.. I've done some nice deeds etc).

You honestly have to put 100% into god in order to heaven, and somehow the bible tells you how to get there.

If you fully understand God, you've already made it to "heaven".

[ds dude]

but god wants to be hidden...because if we fully understood the nature of god then there'd be nothing to believe in! fideism ftw!

If we fully understood god then we would have to still believe in order to go of heaven.

It's not like you can say "Well.. I think I'll go to heaven.. I've done some nice deeds etc).

You honestly have to put 100% into god in order to heaven, and somehow the bible tells you how to get there.

If you fully understand God, you've already made it to "heaven".

But if you reject him you go to hell.

Which is so retarded, if he love us so much why not just take us all to heaven when we die and show us.

[Smegma]

You failed to understand the point. You suggested that if we fully understand him, we must still believe in him to go to heaven.

If you fully understand him, you are already there, no need to believe.

[|_ancer]

Let's just say that all things of God are substantially unknown and no scientific fact proves he's real. So in other words, we can only have faith in God if he exists or not. Really simple but true.

[Smegma]

Let's just say that all things of God are substantially unknown and no scientific fact proves he's real. So in other words, we can only have faith in God if he exists or not. Really simple but true.

Even if we accept your premise, its not necessarily true.

[Mangled*]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

[Smegma]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Religion doesn't exist.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Until you elaborate further, that's going to be the most foolish thing I've read all day.

[Mangled*]

Until you elaborate further, that's going to be the most foolish thing I've read all day.

Is that because you're unable to understand what it could mean? Or because you're afraid of what it makes you if you try to understand it? Personally I think it's pretty self-apparent what it means.

Take a stab in the dark. Go on.

[|_ancer]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Religion is a strong belief of divine supernatural power i.e believing in God. That means religion would still exist.

[Smegma]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Religion is a strong belief of divine supernatural power i.e believing in God. That means religion would still exist.

No its not.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Take a stab in the dark. Go on.

Well, you might be saying "If God existed people wouldn't dedicate organizations to searching for him," with the implication that it would be readily apparent who or what God is.  But that can't be right, since it would imply a grade-school level understanding of God ("I'd recognize him by his big beard, white robes, and shininess" or something ridiculous like that).  I mean, come on, stuff in the physical world, things like atoms and molecules, aren't apparent at all to the average observer.  We didn't even understand how gravity worked until a few centuries ago! How much more difficult would it be to observe God, especially if you're not going to look for him?

Think of it this way.  A scientist comes up to you and says, "The entire universe is made of up atoms, which are electrons orbiting around a nucleus! I've observed it!" You say, "I don't believe you.  Prove it."  He says, "Well, the thing is, electrons follow a path determined by probability.  It would be very difficult for me to prove it to you unless you have the same knowledge that I do."  What's stopping you from just saying, "He's talking nonsense; electrons don't actually exist"?

Honestly, if you're saying what I think you are, then you could argue that the fact that there are scientists prove that there are no absolutes.  If people are still trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, does that mean that those mysteries don't actually exist? Why should searching prove that the sought for object doesn't exist?


...or maybe your obtuseness has caused me to attack a straw man.  If that's the case, then you definitely should elaborate.

[|_ancer]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Religion is a strong belief of divine supernatural power i.e believing in God. That means religion would still exist.

No its not.

Then what is it? It was in the dictionary.

[Smegma]

If God really existed then religion wouldn't exist.

Religion is a strong belief of divine supernatural power i.e believing in God. That means religion would still exist.

No its not.

Then what is it? It was in the dictionary.

Its the belief structure pertaining to God.

[Mangled*]

Well, you might be saying "If God existed people wouldn't dedicate organizations to searching for him," with the implication that it would be readily apparent who or what God is.

I'll stop you there. Religions in no way 'search' for God, they simply insist that God exists. You're on the right lines, but looking at it from the wrong perspective.

By saying "if God really existed then religion wouldn't exist" I was suggesting something beyond that if God was obvious people wouldn't need faith.

I mean, come on, stuff in the physical world, things like atoms and molecules, aren't apparent at all to the average observer.  We didn't even understand how gravity worked until a few centuries ago! How much more difficult would it be to observe God, especially if you're not going to look for him?

Think of it this way.  A scientist comes up to you and says, "The entire universe is made of up atoms, which are electrons orbiting around a nucleus! I've observed it!" You say, "I don't believe you.  Prove it."  He says, "Well, the thing is, electrons follow a path determined by probability.  It would be very difficult for me to prove it to you unless you have the same knowledge that I do."  What's stopping you from just saying, "He's talking nonsense; electrons don't actually exist"?

Atoms and gravity are in the physical world and have evidence in abundance to support their existence so this comparrison doesn't work at all.

Honestly, if you're saying what I think you are, then you could argue that the fact that there are scientists prove that there are no absolutes.  If people are still trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, does that mean that those mysteries don't actually exist? Why should searching prove that the sought for object doesn't exist?

Science isn't blind. All theories for God fail under scientific scrutiny. General concensus between scientists is that God doesn't exist because all theories of God either fail under scrutiny or are so abstract and inexact that they're immune to it. Creationist scientists would argue that God cannot be touched by science, it's up to you if you think that means they're afraid of questioning their beliefs with the same reasoning that they use in their profession or not. I never said searching proves existance or non-existance. However, testing does determine because it gives conclusive results. If a theory can't be tested then it is a useless theory.

Do you think if God existed we would have all of this? There have been thousands of religions that have come and gone since the dawn of man and the baseless idea that yours is the right one is just as equally unlikely as any of the others.

If God existed and he wanted to be worshipped then there would be no religion, only one common belief. If God existed and didn't want to be worshipped then there would be no religions. It's only in the case of where there is no God and yet people who worship where you get the vast array of varying beliefs and disorder and spiritual war and persecution that we have.

[Smegma]

Religions in no way 'search' for God, they simply insist that God exists.

Religions do change and in this way they search for God, at least the better religious sects.

Atoms and gravity are in the physical world and have evidence in abundance to support their existence so this comparrison doesn't work at all.

Unfortunately, their evidence is not supported.

All theories for God fail under scientific scrutiny...or are so abstract and inexact that they're immune to it.

Wrong. They are not abstract in the correct frame of mind.

If a theory can't be tested then it is a useless theory.

The only way we've known how to test something is to use another uncontested theory.

If God existed and he wanted to be worshipped then there would be no religion, only one common belief. If God existed and didn't want to be worshipped then there would be no religions. It's only in the case of where there is no God and yet people who worship where you get the vast array of varying beliefs and disorder and spiritual war and persecution that we have.

This is not how God operates.