Cluster Grenades

[The Epic Guy]

The cluster grenade should get a huge buff. Its probably been suggested many times. Cluster grenades are probably the only bonus that actually hinders a players abilities rather than help them. They dont strike fear into players the way players with another bonus does because they are almost completely useless.

I dont think statements like "it would be overpowered" are valid in this topic, seeing as other bonuses do just that. I dont see anybody complaining that the berserker box is overpowered.

This topic may not actually belong here, seeing as its not related to the primary or secondary weapon balance. But considering that its still a weapon, I think it does deserve a thread here.

Edit: Yes there is another topic about grenades, but that one focuses on the regular variety.

Discuss.

[STM1993]

The clusters have their uses, but their usage is not reliable and not practical for a few simple reasons:

1) Explosion radius is small per shrapnel, though the large spread of the shrapnel gives it a larger area of damage.
2) Each shrapnel explosion only does minor damage, and given the fact that it tends to spread over a large area, it is difficult to deal a lot of damage unless angled precisely.
3) Unlike frag nades, clusters do not explode on impact at all.
4) Clusters heavily rely on nearby polys, so they are not reliable for mid-air combat, which happens very often in Soldat.

The only practical use for clusters is to really slow down or injure a group of ground-moving enemies (the push is pretty strong). Another practical use is to literally block the path in a tunnel and is fatal should anyone come across clusters in a tunnel. Other usage, though possible (such as throwing clusters on the ground and have the shrapnel slam against the enemy's legs or to slam it on a ceiling and have it rain on enemies), are not so practical.

The clusters need a buff, but no one can really agree on how to buff them. Then again, it's not like the clusters are still going to be useful despite a buff, and ordinary grenades are always superior in terms of reliability and availability.

[Platehead]

Well, GA's put it pretty good.  They allow clusters in INF, but not in normal CTF.  So the way they put it would be that clusters are more tactical in their use (INF does rely on lots of tactics, and involves tunnels, buildings, enclosed areas).  Clusters do their job pretty well down tunnels, in clearing buildings etc.

IMO, a cluster should therefore be able to clear out a whole indoor structure.  Which means, the blast radius could be bigger, could include a bit more shrapnel, and the explosions, while not necessarily being stronger (although I'd like it) should push further.  I don't know the names of INF maps, but there's a few where there's a house, and the flag's in the house.  Two clusters (even one) should be able to weaken, and push back any campers waiting.

[The Epic Guy]

The clusters need a buff, but no one can really agree on how to buff them. Then again, it's not like the clusters are still going to be useful despite a buff, and ordinary grenades are always superior in terms of reliability and availability.

This is the problem, that regular grenades are superior. It should be that the clusters are superior, because otherwise they aren't worth having.

If a cluster grenade's fragments each killed in one shot, or atleast did significant damage, maybe then cluster grenades would be worth having. That may be a little out of proportion, but considering that they are hard to hit with anyway, that may balance it out. It may also seem unrealistic that a regular grenade doesnt kill you in one shot and a small grenade fragment would. But then again, adding realism to soldat is like adding new weapons or vehicles.

It may also be possible that grenade fragments are spawned randomly on the server like the minigun generates bullets, or spawned late. Im not entirely sure, but this might be a reason why the cluster grenades are so bad.

[Platehead]

Maybe not exactly make them as strong as frags per shrapnel.  Their use is not necessarily in single kills as I said above, but probably more like a minigun - weakening entire groups.  True, they should need a damage buff, but also as I mentioned, maybe more shrapnels.

[The Epic Guy]

Maybe not exactly make them as strong as frags per shrapnel.  Their use is not necessarily in single kills as I said above, but probably more like a minigun - weakening entire groups.  True, they should need a damage buff, but also as I mentioned, maybe more shrapnels.

I actually believe that they should, because they are a bonus, not a penalty.

Also, no offence, but Im starting to hate the whole "support weapon" theory. Specializing weapons in general reduces their potential, but when you have a specialist support weapon, what that really means is that you specialize in not killing anything, which, by the way, is the goal of some game modes.

What I mean is, when you get cluster grenades you are essentially swapping your mini-m79 for a mini-minigun. Taking something useful and replacing it with something... shitty.

[Platehead]

You're forgetting that what I'm suggesting is that they're going to serve the purpose of a minigun, but heck they're gonna do much better.  So the thing is, a couple of clusters and then everyone in there is like bleeding.  Not like a minigun, where the above result would happen in like 3 clips of 100 rounds.  So I'm suggesting that in an enclosed area, anyone with decent skill with an auto is able to wipe out 3-5 people if they have clusters and use them at the right time in the right area.  Which they can also do if they're zerked.  Just a different type of bonus.  Sorta see what I mean?

I get your point though, perhaps they should be more than a support weapon as a bonus, but still... it wouldn't be very nice if all clusters could 1hit, IMO.

[croat1gamer]

i thought a bit, and it isnt so good if the clusters explode at first contact, because the most time they hit the ceiling, also why dont give them 1 bounce before they explode (the smaller nades)?

[LtKillroy]

Agree they need a buff, how you buff them I have no idea.

[Gnoblar]

It should be a cleansing weapon. you can only get one, MAYBE two, and it basically cleanses the area you throw it at. It should kill everyone in that area, )the area being a small radius about three normal frag grenades in diameter. it should be a feared weapon that is a one-hit killer that can kill a whole team 9if the are severely bunched. once you're used your one grenade, you run out of all grenade types and have to pick them up.

[Ragnaros]

I dont think statements like "it would be overpowered" are valid in this topic, seeing as other bonuses do just that. I dont see anybody complaining that the berserker box is overpowered.

thats fair enough
"Cluster grenades bonus should be overpowered"

btw agree with Gnoblar! very smart suggestion! I would like to see clusters changed in the following version. Isnt it too late to change it, EnEsCe? 

[demoniac93]

Sorry but i disagree, the clusters are fine as they are, i find them quite strong, if you know where to aim them, how strong and at which angle to point them, you can easily get double kills on full-health enemies, all you have to do is bounce them hard\weak enough to have all clusters hit at once, the lower, the better.

[Gnoblar]

I agree with that also. I actually played some bot games and tried out the clusters, and they are pretty cool, but I think they need a damage boost (if slight)

[demoniac93]

Buffing them up anymore than they already are, would mean a great advantage for some players, who know how to handle clusters, (even better than me)...And therefor even beat normal grenades on some games.

[LtKillroy]

Buffing them up anymore than they already are, would mean a great advantage for some players, who know how to handle clusters, (even better than me)...And therefor even beat normal grenades on some games.

I thought the idea of BONUS WEAPON is to be better and therefore being a BONUS. And therefore beat normal grenades.

[The Epic Guy]

Buffing them up anymore than they already are, would mean a great advantage for some players, who know how to handle clusters, (even better than me)...And therefor even beat normal grenades on some games.

I thought the idea of BONUS WEAPON is to be better and therefore being a BONUS. And therefore beat normal grenades.

Exactly. Its not a matter of "they might be overpowered", but actually "they should be overpowered".

At this point a cluster box is like a negative berserker kit.

More shraps and more power is the way to go. I think there are some lag issues to be taken care of aswell.

[Antipathy]

I completely agree with Killroy and Epic on this one. Sure, it's fun to get a cluster pack and throw all three into a bunch of enemies and watch the fireworks - but they just do nothing. An easy solution would be to beef up the damage and add more clusters. However, I think it would be much interesting to change their entire concept.

In real life (oh, Soldat and real life...) cluster bombs function by detonating at a certain altitude and dispersing a number of smaller bomblets across an area. In Soldat, they go frizzle and pop. In real life, they mow down freaking stadiums. Why not make them function like that? What if the grenade would automatically detonate after traveling a short distance (read: very soon after you throw it) and throw the clusters directly where the grenade was heading? This way, players could easily make the clusters go where they wanted. Of course, damage and the amount of clusters could be buffed as well to make it actually work.

Another idea would be to have the main grenade detonate on impact, like now, but instead the smaller clusters would automatically detonate after about a second (with a small offset time for each cluster to make it look cool). This way, the killzone would reach up into the air, when right now it's limited mostly to the ground. Small clusters that hit players before the timer runs out would still detonate, but clusters that hit walls would simply bounce back.

I don't know. What do you think?

[Gnoblar]

I completely agree with Killroy and Epic on this one. Sure, it's fun to get a cluster pack and throw all three into a bunch of enemies and watch the fireworks - but they just do nothing. An easy solution would be to beef up the damage and add more clusters. However, I think it would be much interesting to change their entire concept.

In real life (oh, Soldat and real life...) cluster bombs function by detonating at a certain altitude and dispersing a number of smaller bomblets across an area. In Soldat, they go frizzle and pop. In real life, they mow down freaking stadiums. Why not make them function like that? What if the grenade would automatically detonate after traveling a short distance (read: very soon after you throw it) and throw the clusters directly where the grenade was heading? This way, players could easily make the clusters go where they wanted. Of course, damage and the amount of clusters could be buffed as well to make it actually work.

Another idea would be to have the main grenade detonate on impact, like now, but instead the smaller clusters would automatically detonate after about a second (with a small offset time for each cluster to make it look cool). This way, the killzone would reach up into the air, when right now it's limited mostly to the ground. Small clusters that hit players before the timer runs out would still detonate, but clusters that hit walls would simply bounce back.

I don't know. What do you think?

14 posts in and I like him already.

I'm in %100 agreement here, but not with the stadium-taky-outy grenades...

Killroy and Epic Guy, I concur.

[The Epic Guy]

The airburst grenade is an awesome idea. It would make clusters more efficient at taking out players in the air as well as on the ground.

Considering most combat takes place in midair, cluster grenades should be adapted to be more efficient in this area.

[demoniac93]

I still oppose this, and not, bonuses shouldn't be overpowered, is the flamer overpowered? No. Is predator overpowered? No. Is berserker overpowered? No.
They all got weak points, the pred cannot jet without getting spotted, and isn't really invisible, just transparent. The flamer, ugh, the flamer, short range, takes away your secondary no matter what it was, can't be thrown away, weak damage, as you have to keep the enemy under longer bursts for it to actually do more damage. Heck even the vest, get an m79, shoot as close as 3 meters away from the sucker and he's dead. As to the berserker, he loses health just as he would normally, so it's just a BONUS, and not overpowered.
F11.