Author Topic: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)  (Read 4141 times)

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Offline Gnoblar

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10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« on: April 04, 2009, 07:20:41 am »
If 10 exact clones are given a puzzle, will they solve it in the same way, will they think of ideas at the same time and conduct them in the same way? Or will it be different.

For the purposes of the conversation, the clones are all the same, EXACTLY the same.

The more you think about it the stranger it get's, what are your thoughts?

Offline a-4-year-old

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2009, 07:29:29 am »
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you can do the problem multiple ways.

I think my clones would figure it out in different ways. When I go to solve a problem I could very easily miss a piece of information that one of my clones could see right away.

DNA doesn't really have significance here, problem solving skills are groomed, not embedded.
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Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2009, 07:58:12 am »
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you can do the problem multiple ways.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, yes it does.

It's weird, because they all have EXACTLY the same mind, and therefore it would make sense to have the same approach. If one misses a mistake then the other's might as well, or maybe not? It's confusing.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2009, 08:09:42 am »
No 2 people in the whole universe have or will ever have the exactly same thoughts, experiences, of capabilities\abilities...
You can't make any 2 human beings see everything in life the same way, therefor even if only by perspective they will have different experiences, knowledge, and opinions.
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Offline Veritas

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2009, 08:44:09 am »
No 2 people in the whole universe have or will ever have the exactly same thoughts, experiences, of capabilities\abilities...
Hence thought problem and not real problem.

In any case, what this problem breaks down to is this:
1. Do you believe in free will? If so, then each clone may or may not solve it in the same manner.
2. Do you believe consciousness is deterministic? If so, each clone will solve it in the same manner.

I see no reason to accept dualism, so option 2.
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Offline excruciator

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2009, 09:23:35 am »
nature & nurture. Both plays a factor.

So no, clones will solve differently, but come to the same conclusion.
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Offline {LAW} Gamer_2k4

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2009, 10:53:18 am »
nature & nurture. Both plays a factor.

So no, clones will solve differently, but come to the same conclusion.

I don't even know if you can say they'll come to the same conclusion.  Nurture plays a pretty large role in someone's growth, and because the clones aren't the same person, they can't possibly have the same experiences.  All that adds up over time, and eventually you have 10 people who look the same and have the same brains but think differently.

Anyone who's dealt with AI knows this.  Feed in different training data, and you'll get different results.
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Offline Smegma

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2009, 10:54:45 am »
Quote
For the purposes of the conversation, the clones are all the same, EXACTLY the same.


Whats this here?

If they do not solve it in the same way, they are no longer EXACTLY the same.

Offline excruciator

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 10:55:17 am »
nature & nurture. Both plays a factor.

So no, clones will solve differently, but come to the same conclusion.

I don't even know if you can say they'll come to the same conclusion.
I assumed that the puzzle will only have one solution. So if they do solve it, they will come to the same conclusion.
Always remember the succubus...

Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2009, 11:09:59 am »
Whats this here?

If they do not solve it in the same way, they are no longer EXACTLY the same.

I meant they are biologically exactly the same. They were brought up exactly the same as well, don't think too much on this though.

I'm
Just curious to see if two exact minds can think of something differently.

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 11:18:55 am »
Nope. If they are, as you said, completely identical in mind and experiences, there is no reason for them to do anything differently.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline Serial K!ller

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2009, 11:20:14 am »
Their thoughts should be the same when they are Exactly the same and all there experiences are the same which isn't possible unless there are like parallel universes.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 11:22:47 am by Serial K!ller »

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 11:33:57 am »
Which is why it's a hypothetical puzzle. After establishing that, it's not much of one.
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Offline excruciator

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 11:34:37 am »
Nope. If they are, as you said, completely identical in mind and experiences, there is no reason for them to do anything differently.
He meant biologically.
Haven't you see twins doing different things at same times?
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Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 11:35:42 am »
I meant they are biologically exactly the same. They were brought up exactly the same as well, don't think too much on this though.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 11:39:34 am »
No, not even if they lived in "parallel" universes don't you get it? unless they are "bots" or "cyborgs" or that kind of bio-engineered robots, and have the same database, as in copied and pasted experiences from one to the rest, without ANY file loss at all, that's when you got identical brains, other than that NO.
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Offline LtKillroy

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 11:46:01 am »
Why are people so fascinated by hypotheticals that are both unprovable and will never happen? My answer is there is no way of knowing.
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Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 11:47:37 am »
or that kind of bio-engineered robots,

you mean something like clones? intriguing.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 12:10:30 pm »
Dude just get off my back already! You're gonna be attacking my opinions wherever i go?! Whatever just f**k off....
And i think i can agree with you on your point Killroy.
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Offline excruciator

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 01:15:58 pm »
Maybe the change in micro-environments would act as trigger for the epiphany, therefore I think it is possible for them to approach the same puzzle differently, depending on the trigga.

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Offline Xxypher

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2009, 02:58:39 pm »
Just because you are a clone doesn't mean you will solve it the exact same way.
Twins are clones of one cell, yet they always turn out different.

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2009, 03:07:49 pm »
For the purposes of the conversation, the clones are all the same, EXACTLY the same.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline excruciator

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2009, 04:59:40 pm »
For the purposes of the conversation, the clones are all the same, EXACTLY the same.
Clone might be same, but environment might be different.(one doing puzzle in the park one in a bar)
So I guess they might solve it differently.
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Offline Xxypher

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2009, 05:12:43 pm »
Just because they are clones does not mean their brains will work the same through the entire puzzle.

Offline croat1gamer

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2009, 05:19:21 pm »
They were brought up exactly the same as well, don't think too much on this though.
to explain this
they are all 100% same clones
their lives are 100% the same NO EXCEPTIONS

if it would be so, and their lives are "cloned" also, they would come to the same answer, although there is always a really REALLY minor possibility that it wouldnt be the same
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Offline Xxypher

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2009, 05:48:53 pm »
Just because they are clones does not mean their brains will work the same through the entire puzzle.
This is right. Agree with me.

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2009, 07:16:46 pm »
The words "clone" is just a placeholder word for the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, the same person. Their minds are identical and will come to the same conclusion, period. The human brain is a machine. Given the exact same situation, there is no reason for it to react differently any given time.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline STM1993

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2009, 07:27:39 pm »
The words "clone" is just a placeholder word for the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, the same person. Their minds are identical and will come to the same conclusion, period. The human brain is a machine. Given the exact same situation, there is no reason for it to react differently any given time.
^ That's something I'd agree with.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2009, 10:27:38 am »
I still stand at my opinion as the question giver himself stated only biologically the same, not in terms of experiences and gained knowledge.
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Offline STM1993

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2009, 10:41:19 am »
If they are given the exact same time and environment etc, then they will solve in the same way. The slightest difference would make their solving different or only similar.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:44:50 am by STM1993 »

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2009, 10:50:35 am »
But only with the EXACT same experiences, however feelings, emotions, points ofview at the time of a happening can all change those experiences if even just in a slight way. So it would be hard to do, unless as i mentioned it someone would be able to cpoy and paste memory. WITHOUT file loss.
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Offline STM1993

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2009, 11:02:39 am »
But only with the EXACT same experiences, however feelings, emotions, points ofview at the time of a happening can all change those experiences if even just in a slight way. So it would be hard to do, unless as i mentioned it someone would be able to cpoy and paste memory. WITHOUT file loss.
And that concludes the topic. =D

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2009, 12:16:25 pm »
Thanks for finishing out my post :D
It does, the answer has been found, and it is clear, it can happen but only under VERY highly and locked conditions that are to be given directly into the experiment for it to work.
So i say there is no more to be said.
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Offline Smegma

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2009, 11:11:24 pm »
Quote
I meant they are biologically exactly the same. They were brought up exactly the same as well, don't think too much on this though.

Then please tell me, how, at the same time and place these clones are given the same environment and settings to solve this puzzle, as well as living the EXACT same life.

If these are met, then please answer the question of what makes them act any differently then they have in the past?

Offline Wolf_Man

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2009, 11:17:05 pm »
Are the clones all made at the same time and kept in the same living conditions?
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Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 03:37:06 am »
Are the clones all made at the same time and kept in the same living conditions?

Yes. If you've seen "The Island". That's where I got the idea off. They are born as adults and not as children, they are simply an exaclt replica of the orignal host who isn't doing the puzzle.

Offline STM1993

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2009, 04:03:24 am »
In practice it isn't possible at all to give the exact same condition, time and environment, hence even if cloned freshly like from The Island, they won't solve the same way.

In theory, then they should work the same way.

Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 05:27:28 am »
In theory, then they should work the same way.

I am assuming everyone is thinking about this IN THEORY.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2009, 06:47:36 am »
Because first of all cloning is facing moral issues...
And it's impossible to clone experience.
So it's all theoretical, because these conditions can't be met in practical science.
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Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2009, 08:38:15 am »
Let's not ponder on that.

Offline PANZERCATWAGON

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2009, 11:50:46 am »
the only type of clone that youd be able to produce exactly the same result out of would be a parallel universe clone in which both universes are exactly the same in terms of energy and mass and both universes are happening at the same point along the same timeline

though its still possible youd get differences between the two using that method

Offline Wolf_Man

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2009, 03:04:44 pm »
Id say they'd all have to experience their lives exactly the same up until the puzzle, and then have it presented to them in the same way. Unless, of course, its a multi-path puzzle.
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Offline Gnoblar

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2009, 09:20:35 pm »
Stop trying to make it realistic. It's never going to happen, so stop trying to make it work or not. Just hypothesise the answer.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 08:50:20 am »
Hypothetical answer is: They can't. Because you cannot copy a human memory. Neither fully provide the needed conditions.
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Offline smiluu

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 09:09:50 am »
If all their circumstances, conditions, time, air and whereabouts are mirrored, then they would.
Ofcourse human mind can't be copied, but this is "thought/what if topic".
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 09:18:50 am by smiluu »

Offline Rai-Dei

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 09:14:27 am »
I'd say different because I usually attack puzzles in more than one way. I'm not going to start the same way every time, its up to the clones to pick which one of my paths they choose to follow.

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 03:04:27 pm »
Hypothetical answer is: They can't. Because you cannot copy a human memory. Neither fully provide the needed conditions.

But the question states that those conditions are already met. Do you have any idea what hypothetical means?
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Offline echo_trail

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2009, 05:24:17 pm »
I'd say the requirement for this experiment to have the same result for all the clones is impossible to meet. Even though, in this case, the requirements have been met, it's just not realistic enough for me to provide a proper answer. Any small difference in said clones upbringing could ultimately lead to him/her selecting a different approach to a task compared to another. Small things that happen throughout reality are all factors that, even if on a very small scale, may alter a persons understanding and behaviour, and such factors are somewhat random. In any case, it's too random to be predicted, even in a controlled invironment.

However, I do believe in a persons mind to be 'more' than just a set of chemical releases, so if I had to guess to save my life, I'd say they would solve the puzzle differently.
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Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2009, 07:52:27 am »
Hypothetical answer is: They can't. Because you cannot copy a human memory. Neither fully provide the needed conditions.

But the question states that those conditions are already met. Do you have any idea what hypothetical means?

An event, condition, status...etc. imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true...
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Offline smiluu

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2009, 01:08:41 pm »
An event, condition, status...etc. imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true...
I think that was a rhetorical question...

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2009, 01:30:14 pm »
Ugh...I know, that's why i answered it...I'm DUMB! AND PROUD OF IT!
Anyway, i think it's clear, the answer to the question is no. What more to discuss?
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Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2009, 03:36:09 pm »
Hypothetical answer is: They can't. Because you cannot copy a human memory. Neither fully provide the needed conditions.

But the question states that those conditions are already met. Do you have any idea what hypothetical means?

An event, condition, status...etc. imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true...

Exactly. Whether or not the situation is possible is irrelevant. The HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION was whether or not they'd react the same way, and in that sense, the answer would be yes.
I attend grammar school, last grade, and ignorance is all around me. Well, good for them. Ignorance is bliss.

Offline demoniac93

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Re: 10 Clones Solve A puzzle. (Thought Topic)
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2009, 07:42:46 am »
Hypothetical answer is: They can't. Because you cannot copy a human memory. Neither fully provide the needed conditions.

But the question states that those conditions are already met. Do you have any idea what hypothetical means?

An event, condition, status...etc. imagined or suggested but not necessarily real or true...

Exactly. Whether or not the situation is possible is irrelevant. The HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION was whether or not they'd react the same way, and in that sense, the answer would be yes.

UGH! And people say i was sublime, you just pwnd me in that...
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