Maps 'are' the balance

[Chakra]

Consider this.


Most experienced players - surely clan players - know that depending on the map, and their preferred position/lane on the map, can determine their weapon preference.

eg: top path of b2b, an auto would be more useful. Low on laos, some favour an m79.



Demonic was telling me a while ago that spraying is still very much a problem in clan wars. That got me thinking... is it really the balance, or is it the maps we've been playing on, unchanged for years?


My suggestion is that generic-styled CTF maps such as b2b, laos, voland and run offer certain tactics that bore the game. Air supremacy, position dominance, wide open flat spaces where one can await and control the enemy, supress and dominate. These maps are about muscle from an advantagous position, such as Alpha Team holding the top middle of B2b, or one of the various lanes next to a spawn location in Voland.


Heres my proposal, to the leagues and tournements for clans and anyone else up for it: Dump these maps or remake them. Find maps that offer a fair balance for all weapons, tactical maneuvering, and skill.  


In my mind, the preferred balance would be akin to small yet open locations, with a variety of obstacles and platforms to offer cover and movement, yet not so compressed together as to suggest close-up 1-shot weapon dominance.

[Gold]

You've got a point, the maps do need to be remade, overwritten or something, and yeah i agree with like everything in your post.

[echo_trail]

There's definitely something to the talk. The problem is, no matter what kind of map you make, one weapon will always suit the map better than the other. Small narrow corridors - ruger. Large open spaces - Steyer.

Solution: these walls(or whatever) which bullets wont penetrate, but players can... I think that's the solution. Somehow these things should be implimented. Then it's all about skill, and knowing when to strike. Offcourse I'm talking realistic Mode mainly, since it's all I ever play. I don't quite understand the 'rythm' of normal mode, but I see this being very good for the realistic gameplay.

It's funny, really. All these years we've been fighting over the balance, and I actually believe Chakra said a few keywords up there.

[Demonic]

Because making 10 new, unique maps and dumping the last ones is so much easier than implementing a few slight functions?

Soldat is fast. If you fracture rushes by making much more cover places and bullet-catching polygons, it'll slow down by a lot: and eventually, you could be playing Worms Armagedon aswell.

Sure, some maps do need reworks, like the spawn area of Voland, but Soldat is 2D: under all circumstances the higher player will win, and skill will be determined by who can get higher, or who can use grenades more effectively from a lower position.

[echo_trail]

No, I don't mean to dump all old maps, and I definitely don't mean that a large production of maps should be started. I just think this might be worth minding for future maps to come. If mappers are aware of this, it'll come by itself.

But I agree with you as well; Soldat as it is, is all about skill. You can take a guy with a weapon perfectly suiting a map, and a pro could still take him out by hand. No doubt there.

[MofoNofo]

I wouldnt mind seeing remakes of Laos, B2B, Kampf, Death and Voland which are half good.
Mabye there can be a mapping comp for each of those maps, and people have to recreate/edit those maps to an extent that they are totally new & revamped, then we can select the best one and plop them into next version.

[Mistercharles]

Finally, people who understand me!

I'm still a novice mapper when it comes to CTF, but I'm trying very hard to make weapon-balanced maps. I plan on using echo's suggestion on the bullets collide polys, but not too much, so Soldat can still maintain it's fast gameplay style.

[Rooster]

Maps arn't the main problem with soldat balance, the problem is in the gun and grenade balance. Clearly there's faults in some maps and minor 'tactical' changes for different maps, but that's what soldats all about, you dont need a 5 page article on soldat tactics, it's basically 2t 1l and you use your wits to get through situations untouched + your awesome aim/nading.

There is absolutely no reason to change the pace and rythem of normal CTF clan wars, auto dominance has been a in the game ever since 1.2, the problem is the semi autos in my opinion. If the balance team came up with some solution to get these 3 weapons used in a clan war over autos, we might see a much more diverse game, it might even open it up for more barrets seeing as there'd be less autos.

Individualy the guns are all near perfect balance depending on each situation in the map.

Collectively the automatics are going to prosper due to team focus firing.

So nah i don't think the maps are THE problem, but i think some maps could use a bit more fair play not in a slowing down the game sense just something like a counter for reds hill camp for blue on b2b, or voland spawn, etc. Maybe even a bit of cover on viet and minor stuff like that. Kampf's threshold also needs some adjusting i reakon...

[Rai-Dei]

Edit: Stupid Idea I changed my mind :/

There is no way to fix spray anyways but better maps will help

[Chakra]

Because making 10 new, unique maps and dumping the last ones is so much easier than implementing a few slight functions?

Yes. I'm sure you haven't forgot the numerous balance changes made in Soldat so far... not exactly easy.

Soldat is fast. If you fracture rushes by making much more cover places and bullet-catching polygons, it'll slow down by a lot: and eventually, you could be playing Worms Armagedon aswell.

Right and wrong.  Fighting would be more like a TDM. Soldat is only 'fast' because of the problems you mention in the balance; spraying. It's a quick fix to easily dominated paths on maps.

under all circumstances the higher player will win, and skill will be determined by who can get higher

 This is true, because those in higher positions get more damage from more likely headshots. Because maps are so wide open and blank, theres likely no terrain to take cover, hide, retreat or advance to, so people naturally take to higher positions to see all and take the damage advantage.

[5th_account]

Because making 10 new, unique maps and dumping the last ones is so much easier than implementing a few slight functions?

Yes. I'm sure you haven't forgot the numerous balance changes made in Soldat so far... not exactly easy.

I always come off as a rude sonovabitch when I say this, but I do believe that I know a great deal more about how to make a better balance than Demonic. No disrespect to the man, he's my old clan mate and my favourite bulg along with textkiller.

Also there's that CML league where the matches are ment to be played on popular well-made maps... All maps were considered crap the league died in the middle of the first round. If great maps aren't to our likeing, you need to make ever better ones. Luckily the beta crew consist mainly of map makers so it may be possible. =)

[Rambo_6]

There are billions of quality CTF maps. Surely a few of them work well?

[5th_account]

Again, we're clan players. We don't play much other than the default ones and some climb when the portugeeses are online.

[a-4-year-old]

i have a few drawings of a map with colliders in the bases so people can't nade spam easily, if it were on the whole map that would be real nice.

[Demonic]

I made ctf_Karpat after we had this discussion with Chakra, so I tried to apply a lot of colliders against basecamp-spray and spawnkilling; test games show that it didn't slow the gameplay much, but proved excellent in protecting areas from spray. Feedback is that barret and M79 became even deadlier on that layout.

[Chakra]

Hmm. I've played that map, s'nice. Where are these colliders though, 'cos I didn't notice much difference. You mean all the little sandbags and what nots?

S'pretty cool map, but it suffers/benefits from the generic layout of maps these days. Tight corridors and corners and a large open area for height dominance (though the upper path adds interesting flanking oppurtunities). I like the sneaky vertical pathways linking top to middle though. Handy to keep players guessing.

 Still, how do you think the average clan war would take to it...? m79'rs are gonna love low, and controlling the top middle is an ingredient to supressing and defeating the enemy, like in other maps. Different map, same style, ya get me?


http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=3238.0   ..if anyones interested in the map.

[Graham]

I think more maps should focus on making barriers to stop spawnkilling

[O.R.I.O.N.]

Putting colliders on spawnpoints would make for cheap camping and might impede the progress of some fights.

[Twistkill]

I think more maps should focus on making barriers to stop spawnkilling

Some of the INF maps have that... Warehouse, Outpost, and Abel all have barriers, so why not CTF? I agree, CTF maps need barriers, also.

[reckon]

I concur as well that barriers would be the way to go to control the spray since it is the leading problem, so it seems.
Just like ctf_dropdown, how difficult would it be to put colliders in the main open zones to eliminate the pesky spray?