Possible end to polybugs?

[p0ppin]

Hello there, before I start this tyrade I'm warning that I'm making a few assumptions as to how Soldat works in the area of polygon design and their interaction with the player.  If anyone knows for sure that my assumptions are wrong, please feel free to slap me upside the head and lock this topic .  This will be a long, nerdy explanation full of physics jargon.  That aside, here we go .

We all know most of the objects in soldat are directed by some sort of physics (bullets accelerating as they fall for example), so my first assumption is going to be, to counteract the force of gravity pushing down on a standing gostek, there is an equal amount of Nomal force pushing UP on said gostek.  This must be true, or else gravity would otherwise drive our poor players into the ground through the map .

Case 1)  Player lands in the center of a single, "normal type" polygon.  As a result, the force of gravity - X, is cancelled by Normal force of the same magnitude.  The player remains stationary after landing.

My next assumption arises in case 2:

Case 2)  Player lands in the center of 2 overlapping "Normal type" polygons.  Since there are now 2 polygons, I assume the Normal force is now twice as large.  As a result, the force of gravity is not only negated, it is overpowered - causing a momentary upward force on the player, something we've come to call the "polybounce" or "polybug".

At this point you may ask, "But p0ppin!  I've been polybounced on a single polygon also!  How do you explain THAT?"

Oh ho I also have come up with an explanation for this too.  As I and some of you may have come to notice, the majority of these "single-polygon" bounces happen on thin polygons and also on the very edge of a polygon (where the 2 sides meet).  Which brings me to my third assumption about polygons.

Case 3[see picture below])  Player lands on the very edge of a single, semi-thin polygon.  One may think that since he is coming into contact with a single edge, there should be no upward push.  Nonetheless, the player is bounced (sometimes rocketed) upwards.  My only explanation for this is that at the thinnest part of the polygon, the players gostek comes into contact with 2 edges - the edge he lands on, and the edge beneath the surface he lands on.

The good thing about these problems (if I am correct in my assumptions) is that it can be easily fixed.  By putting a limit on the amount of normal force acting on a player, there would be no more polybugs like the cases I've described above.  Thank you for actually finishing my long, boring essay on a well-known Soldat bug.  *confetti and balloons*

[iDante]

Case 2)  Player lands in the center of 2 overlapping "Normal type" polygons.  Since there are now 2 polygons, I assume the Normal force is now twice as large.  As a result, the force of gravity is not only negated, it is overpowered - causing a momentary upward force on the player, something we've come to call the "polybounce" or "polybug".

I always thought that it happened when you walked between the polygons for a split-second then was popped back out.

Your final suggestion seems reasonable enough, but what about grenade boosting and such?

[p0ppin]

You mean if the normal force is restricted, nades won't push the player up at all?  No, nade boosting would still work as good as ever - normal force would only be in play when you're in contact with the ground.

[SpiltCoffee]

If you're correct, that's a nice application of physics.

[croat1gamer]

If i may add, the existence of polybugs is depending on the map maker, as he can decide if he'll put there more polygon centers, or a polygon center.
Also, that is the way in soldat you get falling damage stun, and that is also somewhat reasonable.

Hey, p0pin, can you explain the gravity thing a bit more detailed, as i lost it somewhere at force pushing the player up when he falls down.

Also, if you play ever with gravity modifiable, you will see that the lower your speed is (also, the gravity is then lower also) the less polybugs will happen, and that is because the soldat cant achieve the critical speed to hit the poly that it pushes him (except for the 2nd possibility you mentioned)

[SpiltCoffee]

Hey, p0pin, can you explain the gravity thing a bit more detailed, as i lost it somewhere at force pushing the player up when he falls down.

It's to do with physics. Gravity will pull you towards the center of the Earth, and as you push on the Earth, the Earth consequently pushes back on you. The force pulling towards the center of the Earth is called Weight (a term grossly misused by society), and the force of the Earth pushing back on you is usually called the Normal Reaction force.

[Bloo]

If you get rid of polybugs, you fuck a huge amount of custom maps (especially those that use teleports or intentional bounces).

You should know that.

[zakath]

If you get rid of polybugs, you f**k a huge amount of custom maps (especially those that use teleports or intentional bounces).

You should know that.

I think that is a price everyone would be able to accept.

[Bloo]

I think that is a price everyone would be able to accept.

I don't. There's more to Soldat than shooting people.

If a map's made properly, polybugs are minimal/non-existent. If it's not made properly, they can be found and fixed. If they can't be fixed or people are too lazy, then it becomes part of the gameplay and it's even for everyone, thus there's no point complaining about it and no point fixing something that isn't really broken.

[homerofgods]

Arn't we talking about how we make the maps? so you could still have polybugs, but there is a way to make maps so polybugs doesn't happen?

[Bloo]

Arn't we talking about how we make the maps? so you could still have polybugs, but there is a way to make maps so polybugs doesn't happen?

!?!?12."$:K213lfkrhsd0o9iy6t?! ":@K12?1

"Hai I'd like one ham and cheese pie, without the ham, cheese and pie."

Seriously what?

[croat1gamer]

but there is a way to make maps so polybugs doesn't happen?

Yes, but only with very detailed testing of the maps and continuous modifying them.

the force of the Earth pushing back on you is usually called the Normal Reaction force.

I know for weight being misused by society and all that, just this one i didnt knew.

The bigger problem in soldat is the elasticity of the gostek, as if he gets stuck he will try to get to his originating shape, and that is the reason for the poly bounce 3 (which is one of the most often).
The legs get stuck beneath the poly (they somehow pierce the poly) and the elasticity of the gostek throws him away (like the super flag throw)

Also, if you would solve the polybounce 1. and 2. it would make bunnyhopping almost unuseable because it is often based on jumping from the right place, which is often the 1. polybonce.


Also when i mentioned bunnyhopping, shouldnt the roll be a bit better made, as it often decreases the soldats momentum, while a normal jump wouldnt decrease it?

[zakath]

there are no way to make a map 100 % polybug free you can make it somewhat decent but 100 % free no way, also to get to that decent level you have to avoid a lot of stuff like haveing to thin polys or round shapes, ctf_Ruins is a good example of that problem.

[Bloo]

there are no way to make a map 100 % polybug free you can make it somewhat decent but 100 % free no way, also to get to that decent level you have to avoid a lot of stuff like haveing to thin polys or round shapes, ctf_Ruins is a good example of that problem.

... So you're saying, fix all polybugs, ruin years of Soldat maps and other such features, just so polybugs can be completely gone?

[zakath]

there are no way to make a map 100 % polybug free you can make it somewhat decent but 100 % free no way, also to get to that decent level you have to avoid a lot of stuff like haveing to thin polys or round shapes, ctf_Ruins is a good example of that problem.

... So you're saying, fix all polybugs, ruin years of Soldat maps and other such features, just so polybugs can be completely gone?

Not really ruin years of maps as its quite a limited amount of maps that use polybugs as feature anyways. and those are rarely played as well.

[Bloo]

there are no way to make a map 100 % polybug free you can make it somewhat decent but 100 % free no way, also to get to that decent level you have to avoid a lot of stuff like haveing to thin polys or round shapes, ctf_Ruins is a good example of that problem.

... So you're saying, fix all polybugs, ruin years of Soldat maps and other such features, just so polybugs can be completely gone?

Not really ruin years of maps as its quite a limited amount of maps that use polybugs as feature anyways. and those are rarely played as well.

Bull. Many, many climb maps and other sub(sub)-game mode maps make good use of them for whatever reason.

[Wannas]

Well the obvious solution is to make the limit on Normal Reaction force modifiable. Or the reaction force acting on a player can be limited to come from only one polygon, but each polygon can have a set reaction force (aka. making a spring poly, just like lava, hurt and heal).

Well, I think teleports are pretty awesome stuff - there's an excellent H&S map named Tellie.
And a lot of climb maps use bouncy polys as springs and the like. So yeah, what Bloo said. But getting rid of polybugs in maps used for normal gameplay would be nice.

[Bloo]

Well the obvious solution is to make the limit on Normal Reaction force modifiable. Or the reaction force acting on a player can be limited to come from only one polygon, but each polygon can have a set reaction force (aka. making a spring poly, just like lava, hurt and heal).

That's quite a good idea actually. Could make for better customisations alongside gravity scripts.

[SpiltCoffee]

Make a bouncy polygon type. Problem solved.

[Bloo]

Make a bouncy polygon type. Problem solved.

Yeah, you solve one problem but create another one that's 50 times greater - Updating all the old maps

In saying that though, I've always wanted a bouncy polygon type (instead of like, 50 to make one single bounce, or ten billion to make a teleport ).