Eurabia - We have less than 40 years

[Clawbug]

jrgp/anyone, I ask you to clean the thread instead of locking it. If there is something against the rules, inform the poster and remove the content.

Ok, clawbug, can you tell me your final solution to that problem.

Also, i am not speaking how a bigger percentage of immigrants is doing crimes, but how you are placing all the immigrants in the same group, no matter if they did or didnt made a crime.

Someone mentioned black people in the US, so if it would be that there is a bigger percentage of black people doing crimes than white people doing crimes, what would that mean for you?

The way to get rid of the problem is to sctircten the immigrancy policies. Take less immigrants, take only those which
have reasonable education to get more education or start to work. Take those with NO criminal record. Require proper reasoning WHY one wants to move to the country.

Also, returning the immigrants to where they came from. Get some jail time and serve it, and be sent back right after it's over. Also 3 strikes, commit 3 minor crimes and be sent back. Also, remain unemployed for more than 12 months straight and be sent back. Doesn't apply for those who are studying.

This however, would be considered "racism". How is that possible? How is it a bad practice for a country to focus on it's own citizens safety and well-being?

The local culture will evolve alot. Eventually, it will be so different from the "original" that the two can't be considered being even remotely the same.

I don't really want to discuss what Sauron did discuss, the "immigrants" becoming a majority in some 100 years. At this rate of immigrancy in Finland, it has been suggested that during the next 150 years the amount of "natives" will go from 90% to down to around 60%. For sure this will affect local culture, religions, politics, laws and so on. But yeah, As Atrophy sang 20 years ago:

"Our forefathers came with a vision and dream, to settle on this land
They built a great nation with blood and sweat, to benifit all of man
A path of destruction they did not see, they did not understand
Live for the moment instead of the future, typical for all of man".

Sounds quite national sosialistic, but the band is far from it. Mostly dealing with political issues, world overpopulation in this particular song. Which would be the subject for another topic I'd like to discuss. (Mostly why support for "3rd world countries" is doing no good in the long run).

[Veritas]

First of all, crime rates are going up. Average immigrant is much more likely to commit a crime than a native citizen as I've shown in me earlier post.

You didn't showed a correlation. You didn't show anything beyond that, and it's highly narrow-minded to assume that being an immigrant is the cause here.

Government has to support all of them financially(provide housing and pay for it, pay them some money, possibly pay (part of) some bills etc.), but way more than government has to support native person.

The government has to support people with a lower average income more than the average person?

SCANDALOUS!!!

Just finding absurd that people are closing their eyes from these kinds of facts.

The way you're interpreting them is pretty absurd as well.

[Clawbug]

First of all, crime rates are going up. Average immigrant is much more likely to commit a crime than a native citizen as I've shown in me earlier post.

You didn't showed a correlation. You didn't show anything beyond that, and it's highly narrow-minded to assume that being an immigrant is the cause here.

Government has to support all of them financially(provide housing and pay for it, pay them some money, possibly pay (part of) some bills etc.), but way more than government has to support native person.

The government has to support people with a lower average income more than the average person?

SCANDALOUS!!!

Just finding absurd that people are closing their eyes from these kinds of facts.

The way you're interpreting them is pretty absurd as well.

You didn't showed a correlation. You didn't show anything beyond that, and it's highly narrow-minded to assume that being an immigrant is the cause here.

1) Since Croat1gamer refused to do the math, I'll do it for you:
Immigrants are doing...:

1,66 x the murders when compared to native Finn.
2,05 x the mugglings/being a part of a fight when compared to native Finn.
3,78 x the robberies and blackmailings when compared to native Finn.
4,92 x rapes when compared to native Finn.

Hence more immigrants means higher crime rate.

The government has to support people with a lower average income more than the average person?
SCANDALOUS!!!

2) Taking such a "burden" for our already starved society is not something we can do right now. We don't even have enough funds for youths having mental issues. (Three cases in past 2 years which are all more or less caused by this, 2 school shootings and one stabbing. The reasoning behind these has been split down to metal issues among youths.)

The way you're interpreting them is pretty absurd as well.

The only absurd thing I could think of is generalisations I'm making. I should not count all the immigrants as a whole, but to split them into nationalities. I wanted to do this from the very first post but I can't find any reasonable source which would discuss crime rates among different nationalities. However, there's one link from Google Docs: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AekUHJayKHFcJ%3Awww.optula.om.fi%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf+http%3A%2F%2Fwww.om.fi%2Foptula%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf&hl=fi&gl=fi&pli=1

It's in Finnish however. The one table I want to take out from it though:

Nationality  Number of "being suspected of a crime" per 1000
Russian          158
Estonian         136
Swedish         169
Somalian        326
Iraquan          367
Turkish           398
Iranian           374
Vietnamese     375
Lithuanian       113
Other             131

(A report made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005 regarding crimes commited by foreigners. P. 213)

[croat1gamer]

The way you're interpreting them is pretty absurd as well.

The only absurd thing I could think of is generalisations I'm making. I should not count all the immigrants as a whole, but to split them into nationalities. I wanted to do this from the very first post but I can't find any reasonable source which would discuss crime rates among different nationalities. However, there's one link from Google Docs: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AekUHJayKHFcJ%3Awww.optula.om.fi%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf+http%3A%2F%2Fwww.om.fi%2Foptula%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf&hl=fi&gl=fi&pli=1

It's in Finnish however. The one table I want to take out from it though:

Nationality  Number of "being suspected of a crime" per 1000
Russian          158
Estonian         136
Swedish         169
Somalian        326
Iraquan          367
Turkish           398
Iranian           374
Vietnamese     375
Lithuanian       113
Other             131

(A report made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005 regarding crimes commited by foreigners. P. 213)

Wrong type of generalisation.
I just want to say that the most of the text that you made was directly against ALL immigrants not just the ones which do some harm.

There are no real ways to find if someone will contribute to the community or do harm to it, as human beings are unpredictable, so the statistics can not and must not be used when deciding about immigration issues.

[Demonic]

blah blah blah

Let's put it in another way then

were you in the state of an immigrant, that is not speaking the language of the country you came to, not having skills that are useful or accepted in that state's economy and are generally looked down upon because you wear funny clothes, with your parents being complete assholes if you try and mingle with the locals

then you are give or take fifty times as likely to end up as a common criminal than someone who has a good monetary background, has access to better education and healthcare and otherwise has been living there for quite a while now.

the problem is the government's solution (which is present in most European states) that instead of creating the means for these people to properly integrate (free language courses, teachers from their ethnicity, etc.) they are throwing large heaps of money at them to shut them up

and that doesn't fucking work well, now does it?

So, okay, you spotted a problem the size of the fucking Titanic, have a cookie, but crying numbers don't lie hurrdurr shut down the borders won't solve the situation and just pushes the issue further from slightly intolerable towards full fledged ethnic fuelled CIVIL WAR.

[Clawbug]

The way you're interpreting them is pretty absurd as well.

The only absurd thing I could think of is generalisations I'm making. I should not count all the immigrants as a whole, but to split them into nationalities. I wanted to do this from the very first post but I can't find any reasonable source which would discuss crime rates among different nationalities. However, there's one link from Google Docs: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache%3AekUHJayKHFcJ%3Awww.optula.om.fi%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf+http%3A%2F%2Fwww.om.fi%2Foptula%2Fuploads%2Fnul786y.pdf&hl=fi&gl=fi&pli=1

It's in Finnish however. The one table I want to take out from it though:

Nationality  Number of "being suspected of a crime" per 1000
Russian          158
Estonian         136
Swedish         169
Somalian        326
Iraquan          367
Turkish           398
Iranian           374
Vietnamese     375
Lithuanian       113
Other             131

(A report made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005 regarding crimes commited by foreigners. P. 213)

Wrong type of generalisation.
I just want to say that the most of the text that you made was directly against ALL immigrants not just the ones which do some harm.

There are no real ways to find if someone will contribute to the community or do harm to it, as human beings are unpredictable, so the statistics can not and must not be used when deciding about immigration issues.

True, and I agree on this. However, some information can be used based on past experience from immigrants with similar background/circumstances.

But in general, immigration causes problems. The current policy in Finland is rather flawed, and based on goodwill of the people in charge. Actually, it's been heard that "It's our responsibility to help", even if that happens at native citizens expense. Can't understand the logic. IMO everyone should be sent back upon having criminal record. If one is not capable of integrating with the local society, culture and share the values, one shouldn't be living here.

Demonic; Persons background/circumstances shouldn't be a viable reason to justify crimes. I agree that huge cultural differences are causing problems yeah. However, no matter the reasoning behind the crimes is, it won't make the crimes any less serious. Hence I see it as, if immigrants can't adapt to the society and culture with the "tools" they are provided, they should look elsewhere. Getting Abraham-Abdiabdullah laid shouldn't happen at the expense of 15 yo girl being raped, as an extreme example.

[Veritas]

immigrants = crime

This right here is the absurd bit. Yes, immigrants commit crimes at a greater rate than the average citizen. You're making the highly narrow-minded leap that people use to justify racism against blacks in the US and saying that therefore the immigrants are the problem. This is really friggen dumb. The reason immigrants from within the EU are more likely not to commit crimes than ones from other countries is they're more likely to, as Demonic put it, have come from somewhere with a good monetary background, education, and have a skin color and religion and fits in the with the rest of population. The problem isn't the people themselves, it's the environment they come from and are put in.

I'm not sure you understand what the difference between correlation and causation is.

the problem is the government's solution (which is present in most European states) that instead of creating the means for these people to properly integrate (free language courses, teachers from their ethnicity, etc.) they are throwing large heaps of money at them to shut them up

Quoted for truth, justice, and the European way

The government has to support people with a lower average income more than the average person?
SCANDALOUS!!!

2) Taking such a "burden" for our already starved society is not something we can do right now. We don't even have enough funds for youths having mental issues. (Three cases in past 2 years which are all more or less caused by this, 2 school shootings and one stabbing. The reasoning behind these has been split down to metal issues among youths.)

I don't know what the has to do with the quoted passage

[croat1gamer]

What to do with the native criminals then?
Or is their crime less criminal than the same crime being done by an immigrant?

[Demonic]

Demonic; Persons background/circumstances shouldn't be a viable reason to justify crimes. I agree that huge cultural differences are causing problems yeah. However, no matter the reasoning behind the crimes is, it won't make the crimes any less serious. Hence I see it as, if immigrants can't adapt to the society and culture with the "tools" they are provided, they should look elsewhere. Getting Mohammad laid shouldn't happen at the expense of 15 yo girl being raped, as an extreme example.

I'm not saying it should because raping and such crimes should be punished by the good ol' stoning to death or with a long camping trip to rural Siberia. But the problem will live on if only the police force is strengthened, because the situation as we described before breeds two criminals for each one caught. Ponder that one for a second, because saying adapt or get the fuck out might seem like a simple solution, but it needs nothing short of an apartheid to work. These people need help, and it's in the majority's best interest to comply before they start a bloody riot (see France).

[Clawbug]

Demonic; Persons background/circumstances shouldn't be a viable reason to justify crimes. I agree that huge cultural differences are causing problems yeah. However, no matter the reasoning behind the crimes is, it won't make the crimes any less serious. Hence I see it as, if immigrants can't adapt to the society and culture with the "tools" they are provided, they should look elsewhere. Getting Mohammad laid shouldn't happen at the expense of 15 yo girl being raped, as an extreme example.

I'm not saying it should because raping and such crimes should be punished by the good ol' stoning to death or with a long camping trip to rural Siberia. But the problem will live on if only the police force is strengthened, because the situation as we described before breeds two criminals for each one caught. Ponder that one for a second, because saying adapt or get the f**k out might seem like a simple solution, but it needs nothing short of an apartheid to work. These people need help, and it's in the majority's best interest to comply before they start a bloody riot (see France).

Basically we are on the same tone now. The only exception being that in my opinion the immigrancy should be reduced to a level which the society can sustain without altering the native citizens well-being(take less immigrants and spend more effort per one immigrant). I see it such that it is an opportunity to move to Finland, not a privilege or a right. Focus on the small groups. Focus on the quality of help given.

What to do with the native criminals then?
Or is their crime less criminal than the same crime being done by an immigrant?

Comply the local laws.

[croat1gamer]

What to do with the native criminals then?
Or is their crime less criminal than the same crime being done by an immigrant?

Comply the local laws.

And why dont make the same thing for immigrants?

[Clawbug]

What to do with the native criminals then?
Or is their crime less criminal than the same crime being done by an immigrant?

Comply the local laws.

And why dont make the same thing for immigrants?

Where have I stated that they should have different "punishment"? If you are referring to my idea of sending them back, there are three reasons:
1) As stated in this thread, the reasons behind the crimes often correlate with ones quality of life. If anything, the quality of life isn't at least going to improve after being sentenced, suggesting that crimes afterwards are very likely. Same with native people.
2) As I stated in my previous post, immigrating to Finland should be an opportunity, not a right. Hence, that opportunity should be used well. If being misused, it's possible to be sent back. Right now the sentences are way "soft" for many crimes.
3) No way to send the local ones anywhere. I'd send them to Siberia myself.

This is how I see it.

[Demonic]

The catchy part is even if the rules of immigration get tightened up, the second generation immigrants / ones already present need more efficient ways to integrate.

As far as I know, these communities realise the issue all the same (or there are some people like that present) who can be talked to, and civil action might help push such laws further.

My guess is that Europe will soon see something like the sixties of America, with a multitude of fronts and various radical organisations taking up action. This is a serious issue, and the more people getting raised aware of it the better, since chauvinists are eager to pop up when mainstream politics fails to answer these questions.

[Hungary doesn't have immigrant problems, but our roma population is in a similar state, and we already are at the state where there are three groups who you should fear at night: the gypsy gangs, the skinheads and the police force.]

[LtKillroy]

Interesting you brought up Romania. I am a good 25% Romania and my grandparents on one side are full. They integrated fine. Difference is in America we don't give people free money so they actually had to work (at least we didn't).

Not intended to sound harsh, just saying.

[demoniac93]

Clawbug you just showed you're nothing more than a racist...Did you HAVE to say "Getting Mohamed laid"? I bet you enjoyed those movies they made about Mohamed's wives, that racist joke, anyone remember it?
Anyways, just FYI Major, that clothing you say looks like shit, has better harmony of colors, sewing grade, and showing the bodies natural curves than some dresses you'll find under the most elegant Western fashion trademarks.
And the head wear is there to hide the woman's hair, which is in the old Arabic traditions the most important part of a woman's appearance, so by hiding it they show modesty, and grace.

[Dascoo]

Hey Demoniac what's wrong with being racist? It's like you're a very sensitive man.

[The Geologist]

It's a fine line that non-sensitive people walk.

[Clawbug]

Clawbug you just showed you're nothing more than a racist...Did you HAVE to say "Getting Mohamed laid"? I bet you enjoyed those movies they made about Mohamed's wives, that racist joke, anyone remember it?
Anyways, just FYI Major, that clothing you say looks like s**t, has better harmony of colors, sewing grade, and showing the bodies natural curves than some dresses you'll find under the most elegant Western fashion trademarks.
And the head wear is there to hide the woman's hair, which is in the old Arabic traditions the most important part of a woman's appearance, so by hiding it they show modesty, and grace.

I did not refer to the phrophet with that. Of course you can call me racist all you want.

The head wear is there to prevent other men becoming interested in the woman, e.g. not to provoke them sexually. In Finland it's been studied that "They provoke for rapes with the way they wear", in a few cases of someone being raped.

And rapes done by immigrants are only about cultural differences. This is exactly what I meant with the phrase. The disrespect for women and their rights in Islamic countries compared to that of ours is clashing big time and causing these kinds of problems.

Edit: I haven't seen any movies about Mohammad, nor regocnized any racist jokes. It was just coincidence and I edited it.

[croat1gamer]

And rapes done by immigrants are only about cultural differences. This is exactly what I meant with the phrase. The disrespect for women and their rights in Islamic countries compared to that of ours is clashing big time and causing these kinds of problems.

I will try to comment this with just one smiley:
Where do you just get all your sources.

As for immigration issues, technically, it isnt their fault that they can live like parasites, it is the fault of the government, they just pick opportunities to live better than they did before.
The problem with your ideas is that the most of them ignore the state of law/right while slowly returning your country/Europe to segregation, or even something worse.

[F4||3N]

Being racist isn't a crime. It's when you do harmful things brought on by racism, which is illegal.

I watched an interview on youtube, about that ex-KKK leader that's not racist anymore.
He said it's not illegal to be a neo-nazi, or KKK member!

IMO the only thing worse than racism is other people calling someone racist for no real reason.
If the "stupid people", if you will, didn't throw around anti-racist thoughts all the time, then racism wouldn't be such a problem. Well, it wouldn't be spread throughout 100% of the world.

Stop calling people racist. It's really not there fault, it's a part of life, just like war and disease.

(And saying that doesn't make me racist, so don't bother.)