Eurabia - We have less than 40 years

[Farah]

man clawbug according to your very reliable statistics, being somalian i have a 60% chance of raping a woman

it is worrying that you actually think this too you nationalist piece of shit

[croat1gamer]

As i said:

There are no real ways to find if someone will contribute to the community or do harm to it, as human beings are unpredictable, so the statistics can not and must not be used when deciding about immigration issues.

Or to make it shorter:
POONT

Sig'd

[STM1993]

Being racist isn't a crime. It's when you do harmful things brought on by racism, which is illegal.

It's considered a crime in Singapore though.

Also, saying rude remarks isn't the crime, but it leads to potential crime or worse. For example, if you call someone the 'N' word and he takes offense, a whole racial riot can break out just like that. Maybe it isn't so big of a problem in countries whereby there are very few minorities and no one really mixes, but for a country with lots of races together whereby each group is about as large as the other and they mix quite a bit, that can cause the destruction of an entire country. It's not just race, it's religion too.

Race and religion are very sensitive issues.

[Clawbug]

man clawbug according to your very reliable statistics, being somalian i have a 60% chance of raping a woman

it is worrying that you actually think this too you nationalist piece of s**t

So you disagree with Finnish Ministry of Justice? You're calling the sources unreliable? Please elaborate and prove your point.

In which part have my sources implied that a Somalian has 60 % chance of raping a woman? Provide the source for me, as I've provided all the sources in this thread for others.

Besides, read the rules, personal insults are against them.

Mods once again, instead of locking the thread, I suggest to remove the inappropriate content.

Where do you just get all your sources.

Google and few Finnish websites dealing with the issue. The sources itself are from Finnish Ministry of Justice.

[numgun]

Clawbug has a good point and instead of you being dumb seeing him as a racist, see him as a concerned citizen, just like any of you.
Clawbug is reasonable and even has facts to back his statements and concerns.

The problems do exist and as I said theres so much we can do about it:

All we can do is hope that the next generations wont keep being rasict at immigrants and immigrants would be more adaptive and understanding to the new country they're moving into and the native people accepting them as long as they are behaving and not dumb criminal b*****ds.

Also: s**t parenting led to this in the first place.

Another thing I'd wish for the whole world is that people or atleast "some" would take religion a bit more lightly. To get the point what I mean, heres a link to best gore showing off a horrible beheading of a man in the name of religion. Its another thing that awakens rasicm in others and it could be nice if people stopped doing this kind of crap.

WARNING: This next s**t is really f**ked up, if you're light hearted and upset easily, DO NOT ENTER. Not even for curiosity. You have been warned.

*snip* ~Not appropriate for these forums.

[GSx_Major]

Clawbug has a good point and instead of you being dumb seeing him as a racist, see him as a concerned citizen, just like any of you.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than for illumination..."

I thought by now he'd have figured out how much, much, MUCH more important segregation and class is. In terms of crime, even more so! But no...

WARNING: This next s**t is really f**ked up, if you're light hearted and upset easily, DO NOT ENTER. Not even for curiosity. You have been warned.

Oh and I demand this guy gets perm banned due to anything else being double standard. 

[croat1gamer]

In which part have my sources implied that a Somalian has 60 % chance of raping a woman? Provide the source for me, as I've provided all the sources in this thread for others.

No, you just said that xy% of the Somalian immigrants did a rape crime when looking at the statistics, and let me remind you of what you said:

1) Since Croat1gamer refused to do the math, I'll do it for you:
Immigrants are doing...:

1,66 x the murders when compared to native Finn.
2,05 x the mugglings/being a part of a fight when compared to native Finn.
3,78 x the robberies and blackmailings when compared to native Finn.
4,92 x rapes when compared to native Finn.

Hence more immigrants means higher crime rate.

Nationality  Number of "being suspected of a crime" per 1000
Russian          158
Estonian         136
Swedish         169
Somalian        326
Iraquan          367
Turkish           398
Iranian           374
Vietnamese     375
Lithuanian       113
Other             131

(A report made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005 regarding crimes commited by foreigners. P. 213)

Obviously, someone has amnesia.
I even made it bold.

[Farah]

man clawbug according to your very reliable statistics, being somalian i have a 60% chance of raping a woman

it is worrying that you actually think this too you nationalist piece of s**t

So you disagree with Finnish Ministry of Justice? You're calling the sources unreliable? Please elaborate and prove your point.

In which part have my sources implied that a Somalian has 60 % chance of raping a woman? Provide the source for me, as I've provided all the sources in this thread for others.

Besides, read the rules, personal insults are against them.

Mods once again, instead of locking the thread, I suggest to remove the inappropriate content.

Where do you just get all your sources.

Google and few Finnish websites dealing with the issue. The sources itself are from Finnish Ministry of Justice.

there are three types of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.

the whole premise that immigration = more crime is just a way to segregate the working class. can you not see that race has nothing to do with crime and the factors that make people lead lives of crime is mostly to do with the state of where they're living and their income, i.e. their class.

also clawbug sorry if i get a bit offended as your close-minded opinions becoming widespread might affect my livelihood in thie future.

[Clawbug]

In which part have my sources implied that a Somalian has 60 % chance of raping a woman? Provide the source for me, as I've provided all the sources in this thread for others.

No, you just said that xy% of the Somalian immigrants did a rape crime when looking at the statistics, and let me

According to statistics yeah. I also provided the percentage of people being suspected of a crime in 2005 and divided the results by nationality. This is a study made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005, based on situation in Finland.

I'll repeat. According to a study made by Finnish Ministry of Justice in 2005, 32,6 % of Somalians in Finland were suspected of a crime in 2005. I've provided the source, the page, and even translated the table for you. If this information offends someone, hard luck. One should argue for it's validness with Finnish Ministry of Justice instead of attacking the messenger(me).

Are we clear?

Farah: True, however what I've been arguing here is that the statistics show that the situation is what it is, hence taking MORE immigrants is not at least SOLVING the problem. Also, showing that there are problems(and it seems that there are people who refuse to believe that these problems exist). Thats why I oppose immigration and immigrants from certain areas. My opinion is that we are not the ones to adapt to the culture of immigrants, it's their job to adapt to ours or then leave. It's an opportunity to live in Finland, not a privilege or a right.

And yeah. it's me who's close-minded when I can provide valid reasons why I have the opinion I have. I've explained it and backed it up with using valid official Finnish studies as sources. I guess it's actually you who is failing to accept different views.

Besides, high amount of rapes can't really be explained with the shape of social/financial circumstances/position. Rape as an act is an physical AND psychological assault towards the victim without having intentions to benefit from it (I.e. in robbery the motive is money/other goods). My own opinion is that it is due to differences in womens position/respect for women between cultures. In Finland, women have exactly the same rights as we men do, and are treated as same. In Iran for example, womens position is WAY worse. Hence even ESR(the nerds should know) got a death threat for being part in setting up a website dealing with Iranian womens position and rights. (More about it in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond)

[croat1gamer]

One should argue for it's validness with Finnish Ministry of Justice instead of attacking the messenger(me).

The problem is that the messenger is interpreting the values wrong.
In 2005. 1/3 of the Somalian immigrants committed a rape crime.
Not "1/3 of the Somalian immigrants commit rape crime."


Also, i need to bold and make the text red again:

Hence more immigrants means higher crime rate.

Now read the whole post again.

[Clawbug]

Hence more immigrants means higher crime rate.

Now read the whole post again.

That is how I see it. Given the statistics which show that immigrants as a whole(Can't divide them into nationalities in this case because no nationalities were given in that particular source, otherwise I would.) commit x% more crimes per person than the native people do, I fail to see how this does not increase the crime rate.

One could argue that it is possible that the current immigrants have been more prone to the crimes than the "new ones to come", however the statistics show increased crime rate done by immigrants correlating with the amount of immigrants. The percentage of crimes commited by immigrants has been rising when the percentual amount of immigrants has been rising. What would make this change during the years to come? 

[Veritas]

Correlation != causation

Clawbug you consistently fail to recognize this basic error, even when it's been pointed out to you several times. It's nice that you only want to interpret things your way, but it's getting pretty repetitive.

[Clawbug]

Clawbug you consistently fail to recognize this basic error, even when it's been pointed out to you several times. It's nice that you only want to interpret things your way, but it's getting pretty repetitive.

Why should I care about what causes the problem when talking about whether or not do immigrants increase the crime rate? The cause does not make the problem any less existent or serious. Regardless of the cause for the crimes, the trend is that more immigrants cause higher crime rate. And as for the rapes, in your opinion what might cause them?

I'm really trying to understand your point but I fail to do so. Do you mean that even though the crime rates correlate with amount of immigrants, higher amount of immigrants does not cause higher amount/rate of crimes?

[Farah]

I'm really trying to understand your point but I fail to do so. Do you mean that even though the crime rates correlate with amount of immigrants, higher amount of immigrants does not cause higher amount/rate of crimes?

immigration is not a neccesary cause for crime and thus higher immigration does not neccesarily cause higher amount of crime

so yeah

[Clawbug]

I'm really trying to understand your point but I fail to do so. Do you mean that even though the crime rates correlate with amount of immigrants, higher amount of immigrants does not cause higher amount/rate of crimes?

immigration is not a neccesary cause for crime and thus higher immigration does not neccesarily cause higher amount of crime

so yeah

In which sense "Immigration is not a necessary cause for crime"? Does the cause of the crime(Being frown upon, having bad social/financial circumstances/position, ... (Is this what the cause actually means?)) really have anything to do with the crimes commited? In a sense that if one commits a crime, it is a crime regardless of the cause.

Even if the immigrant crimes would be all caused by racism, it wouldn't deny the point that immigrants cause more crimes. It would only show that the cause is not immigration but the racism. If this is the point, I still fail to understand how the cause would make the crimess less existent/serious. Fixing the cause would obviously help the statistics and the situation. But as I've said before, my own opinion is that the resources should be focused on the smaller groups and the aid should be focused on the quality instead of the quantity.

And even then, more immigrants would comply less aid/resources per immigrant, which would then make the causes even more obvious, no?

Or am I STILL missing something?

[Veritas]

Why should I care about what causes the problem when talking about whether or not do immigrants increase the crime rate?

Because your conclusion is "Based on this correlation, a higher amount of immigrants cause the crime rate to increase." 

The cause does not make the problem any less existent or serious.

It does entirely change how this issue should be approached, specifically with regards to your archaic solution to the problem.

Regardless of the cause for the crimes, the trend is that more immigrants cause higher crime rate.

How many times do I need to repeat that correlation is not causation?

And as for the rapes, in your opinion what might cause them?

Did you even read my previous posts?

I'm really trying to understand your point but I fail to do so.

No kidding. Try taking a stats class sometime.

Do you mean that even though the crime rates correlate with amount of immigrants, higher amount of immigrants does not cause higher amount/rate of crimes?

No. I'm saying that it does not necessarily cause a higher number of crimes, and your numbers do not prove that they do at all. There are many, many factors in play here, and to single out one of them as the cause is highly narrow-minded.

[Snow]

I'm not going to read through all the posts. I'm surprised this topic is still going. As for Eurabia... so what if there are more muslims or minorities. That doesn't mean that your entire country is going to change into some new Arabic state. That's fear talking. Holland will always stay Holland. Germany will always stay Germany, unless nazi's ever come to rule again, because Holland was nice enough to not wipe Germany off the map the last time out of revenge and punishment. Next time, I can't promise anything. In Canada, we consider ourselves probably the most multicultural nation on the planet. In Calgary alone, we have many celebrations and events to celebrate the diversity. It's something I welcome. I also have no problem with immigrants. If you come to my country and wish to be Canadian (which is that you simply follow the rules and be a positive part of society which is all you need to earn yourself the title of Canadian) you are perfectly welcome and we'll even help you get your footing and place in the work force. My acceptance does come to a limit though. I once saw an ad in the classifieds in the newspaper where a trucking company was looking for drivers. The ad said, applicants MUST speak (blank) language. Even though I have nothing against anyone of any culture or language, I still saw that as ignorant. If you own a business here, you have to speak English, or French. That's pretty much the rules. It also makes dealing with laws, bylaws, lawyers, and all institutions that give out licenses or registration less difficult. This means then, that you can hire any driver, regardless of what language they speak. As long as the driver speaks English, he can drive a big truck. So that means that the owner of the company is discriminant. However, it never made the news. The media usually tiptoes around any cultural or racial issue, unless it becomes a large enough controversy. This is not uncommon however. I knew a large hog farmer who only hired fellow Dutch, even flying in people from Holland. He literally had contempt for Canadians, calling the general Canadian "lazy" and "unreliable". So, why the f**k is he here? I come from Holland as well, but I love my home - Canada. I love everything about this country and feel privileged and lucky that my dad decided to come here 3 decades ago. That hog farmer however, should have his ass deported back to Holland and be forever banned from even coming near Canada.

Anyway, if someone comes to my country, they earn the title of Canadian, they are polite and treat me as equal, the are perfectly welcome. I wouldn't care if the country was suddenly 99% muslim or indian. Come to my house and have a beer.

[Clawbug]

No. I'm saying that it does not necessarily cause a higher number of crimes, and your numbers do not prove that they do at all. There are many, many factors in play here, and to single out one of them as the cause is highly narrow-minded.

But you agree on the values that when looking at the crime statistics, a single immigrant does so-and-so many more crimes than a native person does?

What kind of different factors are there related to this then?

Anyway, if someone comes to my country, they earn the title of Canadian, they are polite and treat me as equal, the are perfectly welcome. I wouldn't care if the country was suddenly 99% muslim or indian. Come to my house and have a beer.

This. Actually if I am ever going to move somewhere other than part-time(2 months in Germany in few a years. \o/ (girlfriend studying German in an Uni and living in Germany is mandatory to graduate)), it's Canada.

[PANZERCATWAGON]

you know if immigration laws werent as they are then we wouldnt have to argue about it

but fuck it lets just argue about the problem rather than the cause

[Veritas]

But you agree on the values that when looking at the crime statistics, a single immigrant does so-and-so many more crimes than a native person does?

I've never challenged the statistics, I've challenged your interpretation.

What kind of different factors are there related to this then?

Quality of life, amount of education, income, neighborhood, treatment by locals, etc. etc.