Best first programming languages

[Espadon]

And C# is pretty obviously derived from Java??

"derived" != "inspired by"

When one of your criteria for differentiating the two is

- Upgrading to the latest .net framework takes forever compared to how long it takes to upgrade to the latest version of java

rather than, say, a rooted class hierarchy where everything is an object, I question your standards

No how about you stop trying to cover up divert attention from your mistake with a personal attack. C# is not a derivative of Java, J# is.

[thegrandmaster]

J# is.

J# exists? Hmm.. not heard of that one before! xD
I've chosen Java as my first programming language, might go to C++ after.

C# and Java are pretty different in many ways... inspired similarly, but not derived.

[Veritas]

And C# is pretty obviously derived from Java??

"derived" != "inspired by"

When one of your criteria for differentiating the two is

- Upgrading to the latest .net framework takes forever compared to how long it takes to upgrade to the latest version of java

rather than, say, a rooted class hierarchy where everything is an object, I question your standards

No how about you stop trying to cover up divert attention from your mistake with a personal attack. C# is not a derivative of Java, J# is.

Except what I just posted was evidence that C# derives from Java, nor was it a personal attack; upgrade cycles are not indicative of anything about language features. Also, J# is certainty a derivative of Java and C# - but that doesn't mean C# can't derive from Java, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

[Espadon]

Correlation doesn't imply causation though, just because you and I both used the pythagorean theorem to arrive at an answer doesn't mean I copied your homework. Just because a coelecanth is related to the ancestral walking fish doesn't mean we are derived from coelecanths. Just because C# bears similar mechanics to Java doesn't mean it's derived from Java. Here, inspired is a much more suitable word than derived.

[Veritas]

Correlation doesn't imply causation though, just because you and I both used the pythagorean theorem to arrive at an answer doesn't mean I copied your homework. Just because a coelecanth is related to the ancestral walking fish doesn't mean we are derived from coelecanths. Just because C# bears similar mechanics to Java doesn't mean it's derived from Java. Here, inspired is a much more suitable word than derived.

Why are you acting like its a bad thing for a programming language to derive from another programming language

[Espadon]

I'm acting like its a bad thing for you to sell your unsound assumptions as verity.

[Veritas]

I'm acting like its a bad thing for you to sell your unsound assumptions as verity.

Okay, then where is the line between a programming language being a derivative of another language and being inspired by, and why is that distinction so important?

[Espadon]

Inspired by implies influence. Derive implies origination. Objectively, we know Java influenced C#'s development, as did C++ and Delphi. To say C# originated from Java though, is a subjective claim. In filling similar niches it can be expected that competing products will share similar mechanics, especially when they're descended from the same source. Read up on cladistics for further explanation on how playing connect-the-dots can lead to false assumptions.

why is that distinction so important?

I picked up the argument in reaction to your response to

And C# is pretty obviously derived from Java??

"derived" != "inspired by"

You continued to attempt to justify your statement by changing the topic to jrgp's poor choice of criterion.

[Veritas]

Inspired by implies influence. Derive implies origination. Objectively, we know Java influenced C#'s development, as did C++ and Delphi. To say C# originated from Java though, is a subjective claim. In filling similar niches it can be expected that competing products will share similar mechanics, especially when they're descended from the same source. Read up on cladistics for further explanation on how playing connect-the-dots can lead to false assumptions.

I think you're taking the term originated too far -- obviously C# isn't Java with extra compiler features in the way C and C++ are related (it being fair to say C++ originated from C). However, CLI is pretty clearly a reimplementation of the JVM with an eye towards Windows development, and C# is tightly bound to CLI in the same way Java is to the JVM. That satisfies the following definition of derived:
* Base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept)

why is that distinction so important?

I picked up the argument in reaction to your response to

And C# is pretty obviously derived from Java??

"derived" != "inspired by"

You continued to attempt to justify your statement by changing the topic to jrgp's poor choice of criterion.

That wasn't a change of topic though -- said criteria was used to explain why he thought C# wasn't derived from Java. Obviously taking issue with the criteria is relevant.

[chutem]

Saying it was derived from Java would imply that it is a modification of the Java programming language, meaning they started with Java and changed it until it was C#, which is not the case.

[Espadon]

I think you're taking the term originated too far -- obviously C# isn't Java with extra compiler features in the way C and C++ are related (it being fair to say C++ originated from C). However, CLI is pretty clearly a reimplementation of the JVM with an eye towards Windows development, and C# is tightly bound to CLI in the same way Java is to the JVM.
That satisfies the following definition of derived:
* Base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept)

No it doesn't, it only satisfies the definition of analogue. C# is an extension of C++ and is analogous to Java. It is not an extension or modification upon Java.

Saying it was derived from Java would imply that it is a modification of the Java programming language, meaning they started with Java and changed it until it was C#, which is not the case.

Exactly.

That wasn't a change of topic though -- said criteria was used to explain why he thought C# wasn't derived from Java. Obviously taking issue with the criteria is relevant.

Weakening his argument does not prove C# is a modification of Java.

[Veritas]

I think you're taking the term originated too far -- obviously C# isn't Java with extra compiler features in the way C and C++ are related (it being fair to say C++ originated from C). However, CLI is pretty clearly a reimplementation of the JVM with an eye towards Windows development, and C# is tightly bound to CLI in the same way Java is to the JVM.
That satisfies the following definition of derived:
* Base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept)

No it doesn't, it only satisfies the definition of analogue. C# is an extension of C++ and is analogous to Java. It is not an extension or modification upon Java.

Saying it was derived from Java would imply that it is a modification of the Java programming language, meaning they started with Java and changed it until it was C#, which is not the case.

Note that the definition is "base a concept on a logical extension or modification of" and not "a logical extension or modification of." When an author's work is derivative of another author, he does not start with the latter's work and change it. The CLI is not a modification of the JVM, but is based on a modification thereof.

Weakening his argument does not prove C# is a modification of Java.

Okay?

[Espadon]

Java is derivative of C++
C# is derivative of C++
C# looks like a derivative of Java because Java is a derivative of C++ as is C#.

Not all relationships are linear.

C# functions closer to Java than it does to C++. Does that prove it's derived from Java? Is C# made from Java? Microsoft is not Sun. C# is not a cobbled Java, it's a cobbled C++ that looks and works like Java. Both birds and bats fly, but bats did not evolve from birds.

[Veritas]

Java is derivative of C++
C# is derivative of C++
C# looks like a derivative of Java because Java is a derivative of C++ as is C#.

This doesn't address what I've been saying about the CLI\JVM derivation. There is no equivalent in C++. What is so objectionable about saying C# derives from both C++ and Java? Everyone was comparing it with Java when it was released, I really don't understand your staunchness here. Actually, I don't even know what metrics you're using to establish derivation.

Is C# made from Java?

Define "made from."

Microsoft is not Sun.

And neither Microsoft nor Sun are Bell Labs.

[Espadon]

This is as far as my knowledge of the history of C family goes but I sure as hell know C# isn't an

extension or modification of

Java in any sense.

[Veritas]

This is as far as my knowledge of the history of C family goes but I sure as hell know C# isn't an

extension or modification of

Java in any sense.

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat that derivation doesn't necessarily mean using code from

Java doesn't use any C++ code and you claim it derives from there so I don't even know

[Eagles_Arrows]

ANYWAY

I'd give my vote to Python, as well.  Very intuitive.
I'm planning on developing a side-scrolling platformer on Python actually because it's so fun to write in that language.

However, if you learn Java/C(++) first, that too is great.  You'll be able to go more in-depth on programming than you could if you started with Python.

[thegrandmaster]

Guys... please... shaddup. This is about which is the best first programming language and what programming languages are used for...
Thanks to Eagles for getting this topic back on track >.>

So Python... what is it predominantly used for?
Is it mostly used in game programming?
I read that C++ is often the main bulk for games these days - and python is used for scripting more than the engine itself?

[jrgp]

ANYWAY

I'd give my vote to Python, as well.  Very intuitive.
I'm planning on developing a side-scrolling platformer on Python actually because it's so fun to write in that language.

However, if you learn Java/C(++) first, that too is great.  You'll be able to go more in-depth on programming than you could if you started with Python.

The only thing I really dislike about python is that it's extremely verbose. By that I mean it requires much more code than other languages do to do relatively simple things, like regex matching. For this reason if I want to make really elegant and easy to read code (like this) I'll use Python.

For something quick and dirty that needs to be up and running fast (like this), I'll use either Perl or PHP (rarely, like this) or Ruby (what powers the stuff that restart the u13 rentals servers when they crash and power the core of my web gather). Ruby to me feels like an interesting combination of Python and Perl.

Say what you will about Perl. Most people I know hate it since there are so many ways of doing the same thing and its syntax is very weird at times, but I really like it.

Anyway, my first language was PHP, which I started experimenting with back in 2004. I feel it's come a long way since then and deserves more respect than it gets. After PHP I learned Javascript, and then I moved on to Perl/Python/Ruby/Pascal, which is as far as I've gotten thus far.

The reason why I haven't touched compiled languages (aside from Pascal/Delphi) or Java is because I haven't had the need. I have yet to do anything that requires more than what the scripting languages above have to offer.

[Outek]

java is easier, pick java