Stop what you're doing and laugh at the U.S.

[demoniac93]

Haha Mangled you speak as if postmodernists aren't allowed to believe anything then!

People are allowed to believe what they like. But if they can't justify their beliefs then I'll just engage them with intelligent questions and arguments and watch them squirm desperately. The stupidest of them believe themselves to be in a position of 'winning the argument'.

Personally I think people should only believe in what can be varified and substanciated to be true. Otherwise you could wind up believing any old fairytale. People shouldn't be scared of the truth.

Also, mangled, you make the assertion that since God created everything then he created gays..? Thats not how it works. The Christian position on this is that homosexuality is an indulgence of the left hand kingdom, and is therefore sinful. Also, Christianity does not hold the belief that homosexuals are created.

No I don't make that assertion since I don't believe that God. I make the point that if you believe that 'God created everything' then by definition he created homosexuality, that may or may not be indirectly, but if God is all-knowing then he would surely would have seen it coming. If you believe homosexuality is a sin and that God created everything then you must believe that God knowingly made 10% of the population sinners by default. Yes, that is the average percentage of homosexuals globally, deal with it.

Boy oh boy if only you could witness as many homosexuals as me returning to their natural sexual dispositions...I've seen dozens of right out gays become straight by their own free choice.
Homosexuality isn't something you're born with, it's a forbidden taboo, a lust you become weak in front of, and then indulge in.

God didn't create sin, man did. And God actually loves us so much that he gave us the freedom to choose between good and bad. If only good existed what choice would we have? As I said, God gave us full freedom because that's how much he loves us.

[Zamorak]

Perfectly put demoniac!

Sorry Mangled you entirely missed my point. I'm not sure which philosophical school of thought you ascribe to but its unwise at any juncture to say "only my way of thinking is true, anything else is just completely wrong".

What is your problem with people having faith? Are you inherently distrustful of people? Is not every human relationship an exercise in faith?

[iDante]

Are you guys just trolling or what? I've got some serious Poe's Law vibes going on here.

[scout]

I'm just dropping by to say this -

I have recently just devoted in Christianity(roughly about 1 month ago) But just as everyone around here, i've asked many questions about the believablity of God himself, and truth be told - There isn't any SOLID or REAL evidence. But i've learned to forget about these 'loopholes' and just go with God.

You see, there isn't any point in debating over Fact Vs Fiction Vs Religion, people believe in God because they seek peace over earthly means - and hence are willing to look past these 'loopholes'. Sure you could pull out all your resources just to show if God actually exists, and even display it for the world to see. But you will never shake our Christian faith.

Frankly, i see this debate over what's real and what's not is quite redundant, or even irrelevant in our modern age. People believe what they want. And if you don't like us believing in whats 'not true' in your eyes, then this discussion is over.


As demoniac put it - We have our own free choice to do(and believe) anything we want

[Mittsu]

you have a choice to be ignorant, that's true, but it's pretty irritating. Some people don't give a s**t about it, but some do. You have a free choice to believe fairytales, we have a free choice to explain  why this is bulls**t.

if you just said "i believe in god", i don't think anyone could have anything against you because god may mean many different things. But if you claim you hold on to christianity, it's obvious you're full of shit. This religion contradicts itself in so many ways i can't believe so many people don't see anything wrong about it.

[homerofgods]

Homosexuality: Is It A Choice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj2-_tFXXT4&feature=related Feel free to check the facts in this video
Zamorak and demoniak93, you should feel ashamed!

[demoniac93]

Homosexuality: Is It A Choice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj2-_tFXXT4&feature=related Feel free to check the facts in this video
Zamorak and demoniak93, you should feel ashamed!

Yeah right, you know, I'm not being a troll, nor am I joking, when I say that they're only finding ways to prevent people from hating on gays. It's not something you're born with. They need an excuse to make homosexuality OK because they love their lesbians.

And as I said, I have witnessed with my eyes (Something science freaks are very concerned with) visible proof of what I said.

And Christianity isn't contradicting, it's misinterpreted.
God's word cannot be translated literally.

Anyways, I'm trying to have me a joyful Easter, and I'll just show you that not all Christians are hypocrites and stick to what my religion teaches me: To turn my other cheek. So you enjoy the rest of this conversation without me, because anything I might find myself saying after this could be an attempt to force my views on someone. I've given my argument and I'm done. Again, thanks for the interesting discussion.

[Mangled*]

Perfectly put demoniac!

Sorry Mangled you entirely missed my point. I'm not sure which philosophical school of thought you ascribe to but its unwise at any juncture to say "only my way of thinking is true, anything else is just completely wrong".

What is your problem with people having faith? Are you inherently distrustful of people? Is not every human relationship an exercise in faith?

No I didn't miss your point, you missed mine.

I ascribe to the philosophical school of thought that doesn't make assumptions and does have a bias towards wishful thinking. You ascribe to the philosophy of ignorance, believing whatever you want regardless of what is actually going on outside of your own head. I'll just throw this random fact out there: there is a correlation between mental illness and religion. If you are religious you are much more likely to be diagnosed with a type of schizophrenia than someone who is not religious. Look it up if you're not afraid to.

Like it or not there is a coherent explanation of what is going on in the world around you, you can choose to ignore it to your own detriment or you can pay attention and be informed and as a result more intelligent and able to make better decisions in life with a better understanding of reality.

I'm just dropping by to say this -

I have recently just devoted in Christianity(roughly about 1 month ago) But just as everyone around here, i've asked many questions about the believablity of God himself, and truth be told - There isn't any SOLID or REAL evidence. But i've learned to forget about these 'loopholes' and just go with God.

You see, there isn't any point in debating over Fact Vs Fiction Vs Religion, people believe in God because they seek peace over earthly means - and hence are willing to look past these 'loopholes'. Sure you could pull out all your resources just to show if God actually exists, and even display it for the world to see. But you will never shake our Christian faith.

Frankly, i see this debate over what's real and what's not is quite redundant, or even irrelevant in our modern age. People believe what they want. And if you don't like us believing in whats 'not true' in your eyes, then this discussion is over.

As demoniac put it - We have our own free choice to do(and believe) anything we want

So you freely admit that there isn't any real evidence for God but you 'learned to forget' that? Well that's ridiculous. How about the scientist who discovers a cure for cancer 'learns to forget' it and just goes with prayer to cure people? What a waste.

What can I say? We all have the free choice to choose fantasy over reality. But some of us don't, and actually some of us are more interested in learning about reality rather than living in a children's story. You are right up there with Holocaust deniers, conspiracy theorists, ghost watchers and UFO abductees, choosing to believe what you want rather than what has actually happened.

Anyway, I don't need to shake your Christian faith, religion is in rapid decline world wide, particularly Christianity. Who knows, in 200 years there may not even be any Christians left, only some closed down creationist theme parks and old Churches that have been converted into luxury housing.

Why do you think they are desperately pushing anti-evolution bills in the first place?

[KYnetiK]

My friend Sam took his mum to an evangelical church in Dandenong, south of Melbourne, and the whole congregation prayed for her. The next Tuesday she went to the doctor and her eye was completely healed as if nothing had ever been wrong. I had asked for evidence - this was a first-hand account of a miracle - so I was really impacted by this, so I went home and wrote this song...


Thank you, God
for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum.

I had no idea
but it’s suddenly so clear
now I feel such a cynic
How could I have been so dumb?

Thank you for displaying how praying works
a particular prayer in a particular church
Thank you Sam for the chance
to acknowledge this omnipotent opthamologist


Thank you, God
for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum
I didn’t realize that it was so simple,
but you’ve shown a great example
of just how it can be done

You only need to pray in a particular spot
to a particular version of a particular god,
and if you pull that off without a hitch,
he will fix one eye of one middle-class white b***h

I know in the past my outlook has been limited.
I couldn’t see examples of where life had been definitive.
But I can admit it when the evidence is clear,
as clear as Sam’s mum’s new cornea.

That’s extremely clear! Extremely clear!


Thank you, God
for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum.
I have to admit that in the past I have been skeptical
but Sam described this miracle
and I am overcome!

How fitting that the sighting of a sight-based intervention
should open my eyes to this exciting new dimension
It’s like someone put an eye chart up in front of me
and the top five letters say: I C G O D


Thank you, Sam
for showing how my point of view has been so flawed
I assumed there was no God at all
but now I see that’s cynical
It’s simply that his interests aren’t particularly broad

He’s largely undiverted by the starving masses
or the inequality between the various classes
He gives out strictly limited passes
redeemable for surgery or two-for-one glasses

I feel so shocking for historically mocking
Your interests are clearly confined to the ocular.
I bet given the chance, you’d eschew the divine
and start a little business selling contacts online.


f**k me Sam, what are the odds
that of history’s endless parade of gods
that the God you just happened to be taught to believe in
is the actual one
and he digs on healing?

but not the AIDS-ridden African nations
or the victims of the plague or the flood-addled Asians
but healthy, privately-insured Australians
with common and curable corneal degeneration?

This story of Sam’s has but a single explanation
a surgical God who digs on magic explanations
No it couldn’t be mistaken attribution of causation

born of a coincidental temporal correlation
exacerbated by a general lack of education
vis-a-vis physics in Sam’s parish congregation


And it couldn’t be that all these pious people are liars
It couldn’t be an artifact of confirmation bias
a product of groupthink, a mass delusion
an Emperor’s New Clothes-style fear of exclusion

No, it’s more likely to be an all-powerful magician
than the misdiagnosis of the initial condition
or one of many cases of spontaneous remission
or a record-keeping glitch by the local physician.

No, the only explanation for Sam’s mum’s seeing
they prayed to an all-knowing superbeing
to the omnipresent master of the universe
and he quite liked the sound of their muttered verse

So for a bit of a change from his usual stunt
of being a sexist, racist, murderous c**t
he popped down to Dandenong and just like that
used his powers to heal the cataracts of Sam’s mum


Thank you God for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum!
I didn’t realize that it was such a simple thing
I feel like such a ding-a-ling
what ignorant scum!

Now I understand how prayer can work
a particular prayer in a particular church
in a particular style with a particular stuff
for particular problems that aren’t particularly tough

and for particular people, preferably white
for particular senses, preferably sight
a particular prayer in a particular spot
to a particular version of a particular god.

And if you get that right
He just might
take a break from giving babies malaria
and pop down to your local area
to fix the cataracts of your mum!

Thankyou, God
_______
Tim Minchin

[iDante]

Tim Minchin is a brilliant skeptic, atheist, piano player and singer. Kindof an inspiration actually. Here's a fave of mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

[demoniac93]

You have no idea what Evangelical churches will do to convert people to Christianity, do you?

[Mangled*]

You have no idea what Evangelical churches will do to convert people to Christianity, do you?

Is it anything like the non-evangelical missionaries who only provide aid to africans who attend church?

Just sayin'.

[demoniac93]

You have no idea what Evangelical churches will do to convert people to Christianity, do you?

Is it anything like the non-evangelical missionaries who only provide aid to africans who attend church?

Just sayin'.

Hey, I'm a traditional Catholic, and we don't preach our religion to anyone that doesn't ASK to be preached.

[Mangled*]

Hey, I'm a traditional Catholic, and we don't preach our religion to anyone that doesn't ASK to be preached.

You are right that the traditional Catholics didn't preach their religion much, they just killed anyone who opposed to it. It was called the crusades, very traditional. We're talking like 1000BC traditional. Or aren't you that traditional?

Also, who ASKS to be preached?

[thegrandmaster]

Also, who ASKS to be preached?

People who look at the universe and ponder whether there is a meaning to life that is more than living, dying and being part of an evolutionary cycle.

[Gizd]

You are right that the traditional Catholics didn't preach their religion much, they just killed anyone who opposed to it. It was called the crusades, very traditional.

Crusaders were people who just wanted loot, and again confusing religion with fanaticism.

[KYnetiK]

demoniac :
aid != preaching

preaching = coercion camouflaged as spirituality, which in itself amounts to projecting a fantasy onto reality in order to cope with stress.
aid = food, water, shelter, & medical supplies. Yknow, all those things youre kinda obliged to offer another lifeform ie actual empathetic help

not to mention the role of religion within the banking and military industrial complex which deliberated these countries to being enslaved to insidious debt and malnutrition in the first place...

Ironically, I believe many centuries ago a man named Jesus/Isu/Yesu/Eisew/Istha/Essa/Jezu/Xristos said to beware of the money changers, and it's the only account of Jesus/Isu/Yesu/Eisew/Istha/Essa/Jezu/Xristos using physical force in any of the Gospels.

[demoniac93]

My country's Constitution was based on the Islamic moral code and laws of the Qoran, and to this day it is one of the most stable countries I've seen or heard of.
I've been around many places, and I'm not proud of everything that my country is, because nothing is perfect, but I am yet to see the Catholic church (Today, not a 1000 years ago - Things can change during an entire millennium) start a war, or fund research for the creation of massively destructive weapons.

[Mangled*]

My country's Constitution was based on the Islamic moral code and laws of the Qoran, and to this day it is one of the most stable countries I've seen or heard of.
I've been around many places, and I'm not proud of everything that my country is, because nothing is perfect, but I am yet to see the Catholic church (Today, not a 1000 years ago - Things can change during an entire millennium) start a war, or fund research for the creation of massively destructive weapons.

What exactly is your point? That isn't exactly anything to boast about. Nobody should be starting wars or funding research for the creation of WMDs, just because you don't do it doesn't mean you get a medal or special recognition.

I'd like to point out that Nazi Germany was a mostly Catholic country.

You know what, most wars that have ever started have been started on the grounds of religious difference. Catholics and Jews and Muslims have been warring amongst eachother for thousands of years. You know why? Because they all believe in an absolute truth. They all think they are right and everyone else is wrong, and all for one reason: faith.

They all think God is on their side and they all think that whatever their interpretation of 'Gods will' is, doing it will get them a golden ticket to heaven. Be that raping or murdering or blowing themselves up or converting or doing charity work or giving to the poor or nursing the sick. Good or bad, the motivation behind it is based on a false premise.

Why does anyone actually think their religion is correct above any others? There are tens of thousands of different religions that have existed, all of them have one thing in common: they were invented by man to explain things that were not understood. Now we are in the information age and we have modern science, and these religions are either obsolete or fighting savagely to stay alive.

[KYnetiK]

Its a little worrying to think people base their society from a book, let alone that the citizens who so proudly defend such idiocy cant even spell Qu'ran in public. Its more worrying that not a single one of your responses addresses anything relevant, and merely introduces a new depth to your vaccuous nature.

Mans moral code is exactly that - mans. Regardless of how long ago you wrote it down, a person will develop a moral character that reflects their environment. Since we are social animals, we are well adapted to utilising the empathy of others to benefit ourselves. Its only natural to see an 'overlap' of 'moral' code. Those who exploit this behaviour en masse are hardly virtuous.

Maybe if todays religions werent such blatant bastardised, copy-paste jobs of ancient Egyptian historical record, I might give them some credit... It doesnt matter which religion you subscribe to, chances are almost every one of your gods was derived from Amen-Ra, and almost all surrounding mythology lifted directly from the lives of Amenemhet I and the succeeding dynasties. The parade of gods only serves to help disguise the clandestine zionism that has been going on for several thousand years - same shit, different bucket.