Stop what you're doing and laugh at the U.S.

[DarkCrusade]

We look at abortion as murder and homosexuality as a corruption of human sexuality (arguably, like lust or infidelity).  They're sins just like any other, and they're not a "surer" ticket to hell then lying or stealing or something like that.  Every sin gets treated the same way by God.

The church represents ethical principles. Being in this position and forcing raped women not to abort a child they'll suffer from for their entire life is a crime. With the church's logic on abortion, you could forbid eating caviar

Oh wait, as long as it's not human it's okay to torture living beings, kill them, use them as food and anything you want.

Additionally, your views on homosexuality are disgusting. Do you really want to say loving someone of your own gender is a crime? Is love really a crime? Bodily drives are.. body drives. Nothing more to say.

Btw, this discussion changed my opinion about you. Completly.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

But, for what it's worth, the Bible does mention dinosaurs in the book of Job.  So...no, they probably didn't exist before God created the world.

Are you a young earth creationist?

I am.

I would like to take this moment to note that in every single scientific study done on the subject, being homosexual is NOT a choice. Homosexuals were born that way. It is extremely common in other animals to be homosexual, and yet you call it "corruption of human sexuality." Sorry but that's just immoral.

Lots of things are hardwired into us.  Heck, if we gave into our every primal instinct, the average guy would probably have a dozen partners a week, and even athiests consider that sort of thing to be...extreme.  Also, "corruption of human sexuality" wasn't quite right, but "corruption of moral sexuality" didn't sound much better, so I ended up sticking with the first one.

Anyway, we're programmed to look out for number one, we're programmed to lie, to cheat, and so on.  The Bible makes no secret that humans are doomed to sin simply by their nature.  But, if you'll recall something I said earlier in this thread, Christianity is all about rejecting our human nature.  We strive to be less like men and more like God.  That's what living in Christ is all about.

The church represents ethical principles. Being in this position and forcing raped women not to abort a child they'll suffer from for their entire life is a crime.

I'd argue it's more of a crime to preclude the life of another human.  Two wrongs don't make a right, after all.

Oh wait, as long as it's not human it's okay to torture living beings, kill them, use them as food and anything you want.

That's going a little far, don't you think? Especially since I didn't SAY any of those things?

Additionally, your views on homosexuality are disgusting. Do you really want to say loving someone of your own gender is a crime? Is love really a crime? Bodily drives are.. body drives. Nothing more to say.

There's plenty more to say.  Bodily drives can very well be criminal (as I allude to earlier).  I don't think homosexuality should be a CRIME, but it very definitely is a sin.  That's not to say that Christians can't be gay or anything like that; it's just what the Bible says.

Btw, this discussion changed my opinion about you. Completely.

It's that bad? I've never made any secret of the fact that I consider homosexuality wrong.  However, I don't judge people for it, either.  If it comes up and I'm asked point blank, I'm not going to lie and say I'm okay with it, but for the most part, I leave well enough alone.  I have two gay friends that I get along with just fine, because I accept that being gay doesn't make you any less human or any worse of a person.  But at the end of the day, I'm going to have my beliefs and you're going to have your beliefs, and we have to respect that in each other.

@LAW gamer: It's what the teachings of the Catholic church in Rome say.

If there's a discrepancy between a religion and its source material, shouldn't you err on the side of the source material? ESPECIALLY when it comes to the nature of sinning, its consequences, and its redemption?

[Mangled*]

Are you a young earth creationist?

I am.

I would like to take this moment to note that in every single scientific study done on the subject, being homosexual is NOT a choice. Homosexuals were born that way. It is extremely common in other animals to be homosexual, and yet you call it "corruption of human sexuality." Sorry but that's just immoral.

Lots of things are hardwired into us.  Heck, if we gave into our every primal instinct, the average guy would probably have a dozen partners a week, and even athiests consider that sort of thing to be...extreme.

We're programmed to look out for number one, we're programmed to lie, to cheat, and so on.  The Bible makes no secret that humans are doomed to sin simply by their nature.  But, if you'll recall something I said earlier in this thread, Christianity is all about rejecting our human nature.  We strive to be less like men and more like God.  That's what living in Christ is all about.

Oh, boy, you mean I've been debating a young earth creationist for 11 pages? I do feel really silly now.  You could have saved me a lot of keystrokes if you had said this earlier.

Any science that proves that anything is over 6000 years old is faulty science then. Well, no amount of reasoning or evidence could possibly persuade you of anything I guess.

I thought to myself at least he's trying, he's not just stating his position and providing nothing more like demoniac and he's not just spouting half-cooked pseudoscientific bulls**t like Veritas. No, it was all a facade all along! You couldn't listen to someone if they sewed your head into their lips.

Congrats though, you were engaging, I'll give you that.

Just whilst we're on the subject of human nature, we're not programmed to lie, it's an advanced form of feigning behaviour which is present in predatory animals who 'lie' to appear innocuous, like a Lion lying low in the grass in order to not be seen. Or a Bee-fly who mimics the appearence of a Bee in order to gain access to Beehives and consume larvae and honey. It's all perfectly explained by evolution.

[demoniac93]

@LAW: I do as The Bible teaches me to, but I interpret The Bible the way I learned to interpret it on the hands of the church's tradition.
I'm old-school Catholic so I must be knowledgeable about both The Bible and the church traditions and laws.

@Mangled: I gave you your peace of mind, so just give me mine and don't disgrace me with putting my nickname or any other alias of me on your lips, or in this case, your fingers. Just give me that one simple pleasure, you pitiful, arrogant, self-righteous piece of s**t...Just because I don't waste 5 minutes to write you a 10 paragraph essay doesn't make my opinion any less reasonable than yours. Learn some goddamn humility.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Oh, boy, you mean I've been debating a young earth creationist for 11 pages? I do feel really silly now.   You could have saved me a lot of keystrokes if you had said this earlier.

And this is my problem with you.  You argue against a person rather than against a point.  In the context of a debate, it shouldn't matter what I am; it should matter what I'm saying.

Any science that proves that anything is over 6000 years old is faulty science then.

I'd prefer not to put it that way.  Rather, if God created a finished universe from scratch in seven days, what would you expect it to look like? Carving a statue of a 30 year old man doesn't take 30 years, and creating a universe that appears to have a 13 billion year history doesn't have to take 13 billion years.

No, it was all a facade all along! You couldn't listen to someone if they sewed your head into their lips.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.  But if it helps, remember that from the very start, you weren't trying to convert me and I wasn't trying to convert you.  Those were foregone conclusions, as we had decided that the other's viewpoint was wrong anyway.  That didn't stop us from debating each other, did it?

Just whilst we're on the subject of human nature, we're not programmed to lie, it's an advanced form of feigning behaviour which is present in predatory animals who 'lie' to appear innocuous, like a Lion lying low in the grass in order to not be seen. Or a Bee-fly who mimics the appearence of a Bee in order to gain access to Beehives and consume larvae and honey. It's all perfectly explained by evolution.

That's what I was getting at.  Perhaps "programmed" was the wrong choice of words.

[croat1gamer]

@ lawgamer2k4-

- I think he meant that he would reorganize his POV to "accommodate" it to your beliefs, because he probably went for the wrong theories and such.

- First thing, the bible is a metaphoric book. Secondly, it doesnt take you 30 years to make a sculpture of a 30 year old person, but it takes a man 30 years to look like that. If there are no 30 year old men, how could anyone know how would one look like and make by that example a sculpture of the 30 year old person?

- I prefer discussions over debates. The people in discussions learn something new and change their POV's because of what they learnt, in debates, they try to disapprove the other one's POV by giving arguments to why their POV is 'correct'. -plainly said, cant be arssed to argue atm

- /

@ demoniac-
You missed an pretty important thing. Even if you sin, you have the possibility to repent for his sins and try to rectify them; and if you do it right, you wont end up in hell.
Though, there is a problem because there are two types of rectification- the inner one, where a person grieves that by himself and god would forgive them; and the churchly one, where you confess your sins to the priest and he gives you a penance to resolve your sins thereby not going to hell. Of course, the second one is plain bulls**t, but it is considered canon by the church.

[demoniac93]

Both are canon, the confession chair is there for those of weak or weakened faith.
Sometimes when the person who comes forth to confession doesn't hear God's answer to his admitting his sins, they need another heard voice to tell them that they have been forgiven, so that they can find some closure for those sins.
It's simple ,really, we as humans just need something physical sometimes to keep us going.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

- I think he meant that he would reorganize his POV to "accommodate" it to your beliefs, because he probably went for the wrong theories and such.

Um, yeah.  Here's hoping.

- First thing, the bible is a metaphoric book.

I can't accept that, because then my religion boils down to "be nice to people; also we have a story book."  If I just wanted to be a good person, I don't need religion for that.

Secondly, it doesnt take you 30 years to make a sculpture of a 30 year old person, but it takes a man 30 years to look like that. If there are no 30 year old men, how could anyone know how would one look like and make by that example a sculpture of the 30 year old person?

The answer to that is a difficult one, since I'm not sure exactly which part of my analogy you're picking apart.  If it's simply that a creator can't make something unless he's seen an example, that's easily disproved.  People innovate all the time, and, what's more, GOD is the creator in this case.  I think he'll be alright.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to word the other possibility (something about the internal consistency of the universe or some such), so let me know if my first point isn't what you were going for.

[DarkCrusade]

How can you think homosexuality is wrong but don't care about it? That's nonsense.

And mostly my opinion about you changed, because you're a young earth creationist.

[croat1gamer]

- First thing, the bible is a metaphoric book.

I can't accept that, because then my religion boils down to "be nice to people; also we have a story book."  If I just wanted to be a good person, I don't need religion for that.

You dont, but what with the other 6 milliards of people? Noone can expect anyone else to have a defined set of moral rules which they have learnt by themselves. I mentioned it in the greek democracy thingy, where something has to be above others to create some kind of order.
Also, literature with its metaphors is a bitch.

Secondly, it doesnt take you 30 years to make a sculpture of a 30 year old person, but it takes a man 30 years to look like that. If there are no 30 year old men, how could anyone know how would one look like and make by that example a sculpture of the 30 year old person?

The answer to that is a difficult one, since I'm not sure exactly which part of my analogy you're picking apart.  If it's simply that a creator can't make something unless he's seen an example, that's easily disproved.  People innovate all the time, and, what's more, GOD is the creator in this case.  I think he'll be alright.

Hm, havent thought of that pov.

Ill try to explain my religious beliefs, perhaps it might make my posts a bit more understandable. Im something on a borderline between agnosticism and atheism. I dont consider god (and devil) a single being, but an sum of essences. Something like a divine sparkle, which is found in anyone. Singularly, a person doesnt make a god, but the whole mankind is god. It is actually quite comparable to the bible's description of god (if anyone wants a further explanation, feel free to ask).

@ darkcrusade- Think of it as "You are wrong, but i dont care (too much) about it because everyone has the right to choose."

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

How can you think homosexuality is wrong but don't care about it? That's nonsense.

Because if I threw a fit about everything that I thought was wrong, I'd be completely insufferable and I'd soon have a nervous breakdown.  I think profanity is wrong, but if I corrected my friends (or you guys) every time it was used, how do you think that would turn out? I think premarital sex is wrong, but that's not going to fly if I try to push that on pretty much anyone.  And, to get back to the main point, I think homosexuality is wrong, but if I let that get in the way of relationships, I'd have deprived myself of a pair of good friends.

You learn to live with stuff you disagree with, and that's all there is to it.  There's too much wrong with the world to get worked up at every single fault you see in it.

[croat1gamer]

Tolerance, easily said.

[Veritas]

yet you are drawing conclusions based on your premise that for some reason time couldn't possibly exist before the Big Bang.

I can only conclude you don't realize a causal singularity at t = 0 is a part of the classical version of the Big Bang model.

For someone so arrogant you sure have no clue what you're talking about.

Unfortunately since you lack the ability to comprehend my points or provide any intelligable counter-points I am forced to cease responding to any of your further arguments in this thread.

Take your ball and go home then~

[Mangled*]

@Mangled: I gave you your peace of mind, so just give me mine and don't disgrace me with putting my nickname or any other alias of me on your lips, or in this case, your fingers. Just give me that one simple pleasure, you pitiful, arrogant, self-righteous piece of s**t...Just because I don't waste 5 minutes to write you a 10 paragraph essay doesn't make my opinion any less reasonable than yours. Learn some goddamn humility.

For a self-righteous piece of sh**t I'm sure glad I don't have to resort to insults, despite not being any of the people claiming a moral and spiritual high-ground. You didn't have to involve yourself in a debate where you knew your beliefs were going to be questioned, but you did, and that's a positive thing.

And this is my problem with you.  You argue against a person rather than against a point.  In the context of a debate, it shouldn't matter what I am; it should matter what I'm saying.

No I argue against a person's reason for holding their point, not the person. What you 'are' (young earth creationist) is determining your point of view. Your views aren't strictly personal because they are part of a belief system that you adhere to. Your point of view, therefore what you are saying, is massively affected by what you are.

Any science that proves that anything is over 6000 years old is faulty science then.

I'd prefer not to put it that way.  Rather, if God created a finished universe from scratch in seven days, what would you expect it to look like? Carving a statue of a 30 year old man doesn't take 30 years, and creating a universe that appears to have a 13 billion year history doesn't have to take 13 billion years.

What is science for you? Where do you draw the line, the distinction between 'this science is true' and 'this science is not true'? Is it just based off if something aligns itself with your personal beliefs or not?

No, it was all a facade all along! You couldn't listen to someone if they sewed your head into their lips.

I guess that's one way of looking at it.  But if it helps, remember that from the very start, you weren't trying to convert me and I wasn't trying to convert you.  Those were foregone conclusions, as we had decided that the other's viewpoint was wrong anyway.  That didn't stop us from debating each other, did it?

No it doesn't stop us from debating, you're right. But it does mean you have a preconcieved conclusion on any arguments that are brought to the table. What is particularly troubling for me is that in particular New Earth Creationists have a fundamental basis of belief that is demonstrably false by science. I sincerely can't fathom what you can learn or take away from any discussion based off that.

That's what I was getting at.  Perhaps "programmed" was the wrong choice of words.

Programmed isn't too bad a word to use, it's just not a trait that's exclusive to humans. Sure, we have a greater capacity for intelligence so we can use deceit in a much broader way than animals. Most animals are limited to a instinctive feigning behaviour which they don't understand.

[Horve]

innovation is not invention
innovation is recycling

[demoniac93]

My beliefs are questioned 24/7. sometimes even by myself.
And that wasn't an insult, it was a fact. I can tolerate debate and constructive discussion, but I loathe arrogance. Also, just because I believe in God doesn't make me an insta-saint.

[iDante]

Gamer_2k4 you have a fundamentally different view of science than me. All science undeniably shows that the universe is very old. You know this, but because you value what's written in a several thousand year old book more than the sum of human knowledge, you choose to ignore it. Much of the bible is scientifically impossible and yet creationists still look in Turkey for archeological evidence of an ark large enough to hold every animal in the world. I just can't even comprehend what sort of mentality could make anyone believe that way.

Also, just because I believe in God doesn't make me an insta-saint.

But you do believe that your morals are the universally correct ones because they are based on the bible?

[demoniac93]

It has nothing to do with mentality, spirituality is about faith and belief.
And I never force my morals, nor do I use them as a standard for judgement against other people, because one of my morals tells me not to.

[homerofgods]

{LAW} Gamer_2k4 and demoniac93.
Do you believe that:

-Being gay is in fact part of their nature, because they are born as gay, but it's a sin so you should choose not to do anything gay?
Or
-That noone is born gay(ignoring facts)?

And, do you believe that:

-There was no dinosaurs?(ignoring facts)
Or
-The dinosaurs were made at the same time as humans(ignoring facts)?
Or
The creation is just a metaphor on how God created the earth?

[demoniac93]

What proof is there of gays being born gay? Or lesbians being born lesbian? It's not nature, it's the environment, as I've said already, I know dozens of gays who simply stopped being gay.
Now let me ask you, can a mannequin child just cease to show symptoms of that defect, just by deciding so?
There's a real life fact for you.

And I do believe that Genesis is a metaphor of the world's creation, try reading it, before making any assumptions. If it wasn't a metaphor how could it be the sky that "divides the waters"?

As to the whole dinosaur thing, I'll be blunt and say that thus far I have no real opinion on it all, there's many explanations, including those that say that it's another test by Satan. Right now I am yet to catch up on some reading of my own and find out.