The Nature of Humanity

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Since jrgp is having a cry about my supposed lack of involvement here, let's get something going.  Now that the Bash Pit is back for all the tools to hang out in, perhaps we can get some decent, civil, intelligent discussion in the Lounge.  As I told Espadon the other day, "off-topic" doesn't have to be synonymous with "inane."

So, without further ado, let's discuss

The Nature of Humanity

Points to consider:

• What makes us human? Or, to put it another way, what makes humans distinct from animals? From sufficiently advanced robots?
• Should animals have the same rights as humans? Should humans have the same rights as robots?
• Is it possible to lose our humanity? Would a brain encased in a mechanical body be a human? What if that brain was transferred to an identical computer, resulting in a completely lifeless entity?
• Is there a non-physical component to humanity? Do souls exist? Is a body still human after it has died? Is a clump of cells still human before it's been born?
• Are the mentally handicapped fully human? What about those in a vegetative state? What about babies? Why?
• If we have the right to own pets and livestock, should sufficiently advanced aliens or artificial intelligences have the same right with respect to us? Do the rights of the more advanced take precedence of the less advanced, or is there simply a critical point past which all intelligent beings have equal rights?
• Suppose our consciousness transcends our physical bodies.  Are we still human? Are we superhuman? Suppose two people shared a consciousness.  Do they become one person? Suppose the world shared one consciousness.  Suppose the universe did.  What then?
• Are humans defined by the ability to err? Is a perfect person human? Could a human become a god? Could a god become a human? What is a god?

[ds dude]

The bash pit isn't for tools to hang out in, and this topic won't be civil and intelligent save that for uni please.

[Smegma]

The bash pit isn't for tools to hang out in, and this topic won't be civil and intelligent save that for uni please.

You think the majority of people in uni will be able to be civil and intelligent?

OT:

Not sure what make us human other than out defining morphological characteristics. Sure, it seems apparent that there are large differences in other species,  but I feel like its actually not that great. We just are able to find use of specific cognitive abilities that other species dont.

[ds dude]

The bash pit isn't for tools to hang out in, and this topic won't be civil and intelligent save that for uni please.

You think the majority of people in uni will be able to be civil and intelligent?

not really

But to stay on topic, what makes us human is that we can think independently and not have to rely on instinct to make certain choices..

[panda_bear_smoking]

42. Since jrgp is having a cry about my supposed lack of involvement here, let's get something going.  Now that the Bash Pit is back for all the tools to hang out in, perhaps we can get some decent, civil, intelligent discussion in the Lounge.  As I told Espadon the other day, "off-topic" doesn't have to be synonymous with "inane."

So, without further ado, let's discuss

The Nature of Humanity

Points to consider:

• 1 What makes us human? Or, to put it another way, what makes humans distinct from animals? From sufficiently advanced robots?
• 2 Suppose our consciousness transcends our physical bodies.  Are we still human? Are we superhuman? Suppose two people shared a consciousness.  Do they become one person?
   Suppose the world shared one consciousness.  Suppose the universe did.  What then?

[

• 3 Are humans defined by the ability to err? Is a perfect person human? Could a human become a god? Could a god become a human? What is a god?

1. Not as much as one would hope, we are not special. I give the credit to speech how we talk is how we think and speech also limits are thought procese's. And maybe aliens took monkeys and buttf**ked there's/are's dna so we would be able to havest gold for them and maybe that counts as special but you don't rly beleave wee where the first , thatt would be foolish •_•

2.porn proved that we have esp and check this link out about how humans effect each other minds and also humans effect random number genrerators aka mind over matter proved
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

3. As all things chaulk this one up to perspective ,I say aliens you say magic god


42.I feel like your trying to look smart more then you are being smart,  thhis topic has no soul
You didn't add any of your own input on the matter you just asked a bunch of common question , too many of them -from my perspective-
But its better then just slinging poop , good try. Make it short and sweet next time and put up something people wanna debate/counter. Question of cousre could be debated but that would take a higher IQ level then these forums are at ight nowz cracker

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

You didn't add any of your own input on the matter you just asked a bunch of common question , too many of them -from my perspective-

I didn't add any of my own input because honestly, I have difficulty answering a lot of these questions.  That's why I thought they would spur some good discussion; if they had easy solutions, what would be the point?

That said, I'll give it my best shot.

EDIT: I just spent two hours typing up responses to every single point I brought up in the first post, and, with one fell stroke of "backspace" while the text box wasn't in focus, I lost it all.  I'll try to rewrite it, but I'm too discouraged to do so immediately.

EDIT 2: Key points, in case I decide it's not worth it to retype everything up, are as follows:

• The key element of humanity is the concept of a conscience.  Similar appearances of guilt in animals are simply anxiety in anticipation of punishment.  Similar appearances in robots are just mimicry without a true understanding of morality.
• One might call this conscience a manifestation of an immaterial soul, though if one exists, I can't say when or how humans get it.
• Having non-human components (like a metal hip) does not decrease one's humanity.  However, replacing one's mind with a computer, even an "identical" computer, DOES destroy that humanity.
• By my definition, morality and rationality are what give someone humanity (notably distinct from being biologically human, which is something true of amputated body parts and dead people).  However, this precludes the insane, the mentally disabled, and the brain-dead.  Babies (both born and unborn) get a free pass because they have the potential for rationality and morality.
• That said, it seems to me that the notion of humanity (in society) is largely based on empathy.  We think that the insane have rights because we can, on some level, relate to them.  It's the same reason it's okay to stomp on an ant but not a kitten.
• If a human brain was wrapped in a non-human form (a gigantic mecha frame, a spaceship, a box), they feel less human because we can't relate to them.  However, these entities would not be LESS human, but rather OTHER than human.  In some cases they could be more than human.  Just as a tesseract or a cube is more than a square while being fundamentally the same, so a transcended human consciousness (or network of consciousnesses) would be greater than, but not distinct from, twenty-first century humans.
• Any being with greater awareness has rights and precedence over ones with lesser awareness.  We can keep animals as pets.  Advanced aliens can keep us as pets.  We may not like it, but who are we to judge? A child may not like being disciplined, but his level of awareness is nothing compared to his parents' (even though both are human).
• A perfect human would be something greater than human (call it post-human, trans-human, or whatever else you like).  Fallibility is a shortcoming that our current manifestation of humanity has, but it won't always have to be like that.  Furthermore, as humans are made in the image of God, so is God's image a reflection of humans (albeit a grander, purer reflection).  From that perspective, it is theoretically possible to, someday, reach his level in some way or another.  Read Isaac Asimov's short story "The Last Question" for more thoughts on this.

Finally, you may notice some contradictions in the things I typed above.  While it's not intentional, I think it may in fact be unavoidable (unless you think that we're just differently shaped clumps of matter, no more or less significant than anything else, and the concepts of rights and ethics are simply sociological constructs).  We don't consider questions like these because there's rarely a need to, so most people probably have a very nebulous point of view on the matter.  That's why I didn't want to respond right away, but it's also the same reason that I was looking forward to other peoples' responses.

[Mangled*]

• What makes us human? Or, to put it another way, what makes humans distinct from animals? From sufficiently advanced robots?

3 traits that lead to our success as a civilization:

1 - Large cognitive ability, enabling thought and reasoning beyond animals with smaller mental ability.
2 - Intricate vocal ability, enabling language and communication of ideas/teaching.
3 - Opposable thumbs, enabling us to craft, build, work, write, wank etc...

Many animals have 1 or 2 of these traits, but humans are the only species that exist today who possess all 3. Elephants and dolphins have mental capacity rivaling humans but lack any way of communicating intricately. Some species of bird such as budgies have a massive range of vocal sounds they can make which could form the foundation of a language, but they do not have the cognitive ability to comprehend its potential uses, they use it merely on an instinctive level. Chimps and apes have large mental capability and have opposable thumbs allowing them to craft tools and build things and even draw pictures. But they do not have the vocal range to facilitate language and therefore intricate society, they can still teach eachother by mimicing and learn... but not to the extent of humans.

What makes us human is our genes, any of these other mentioned species could have been equally successful as we were. It just turned out this way.


• Should animals have the same rights as humans? Should humans have the same rights as robots?

In an idealistic world, yes. But we do not live in an ideal world, human society is so far removed from behaviour in the animal kingdom, we have rules, laws, crimes and lots of things that animals cannot even comprehend. I believe animals should have some rights but they come second the rights of humans and also the advancement of science. We're only as special as our genetic traits allow us to be. We're in a position where we dictate the fate of many animals in the world. Robots? Robots are calculators, they cannot reason or feel pain, they do what they are programmed to do, abuse them as you wish.


• Is it possible to lose our humanity? Would a brain encased in a mechanical body be a human? What if that brain was transferred to an identical computer, resulting in a completely lifeless entity?

I wouldn't class that as a human, I would class that as a biomachine. I have nothing against that, we're all mechanical... our brains work off of electrical impulses just like computers do. But if I knew a biomachine could reason and be aware of things beyond mere calculation, to me it would be wrong... I would pity it, for that is being born a slave.


• Is there a non-physical component to humanity? Do souls exist? Is a body still human after it has died? Is a clump of cells still human before it's been born?

No I don't believe in duality, our consciousness is an amazing thing but it is part of our bodies. It is simply the manifestation of how our brains represent all of the incoming signals to us... You don't command your body to move your arm, you just do it as you wish. A very strange thing the body is. But reality is often stranger than fiction.


• Are the mentally handicapped fully human? What about those in a vegetative state? What about babies? Why?

Yes they are all human. Our cognitive state does not dictate what we are. Everyone has different combinations of genes. Some have better than others. Some have damaged bodies. This doesn't change their species. They are as human as you or me.


• If we have the right to own pets and livestock, should sufficiently advanced aliens or artificial intelligences have the same right with respect to us? Do the rights of the more advanced take precedence of the less advanced, or is there simply a critical point past which all intelligent beings have equal rights?

Very interesting question. I'd like to think 'higher' lifeforms would be reasonable by human standards and would have had their own respective histories of slavery and rights movements. Or maybe they were smarter to begin with. It begs the question is there a limit to intelligence? Outside of the constraints of a human brain....What could a larger brain achieve? I think if they were as intelligent or more intelligent than humans we could communicate and reason and debate our interspecies philosophy.


• Suppose our consciousness transcends our physical bodies.  Are we still human? Are we superhuman? Suppose two people shared a consciousness.  Do they become one person? Suppose the world shared one consciousness.  Suppose the universe did.  What then?

If it did, we are what we are... if that's what a human is by our own definition, yes. I don't believe we have any higher conceptual ability than the smartest animals... I don't think we're unique, we just have advantages they don't as mentioned in my first answer.


• Are humans defined by the ability to err? Is a perfect person human? Could a human become a god? Could a god become a human? What is a god?

Humans are defined by their genes, it makes us what we are and slight differences would make us vastly different. A human could not become a God. They are constrained by everything that makes them human as are all living things respectively. Plants can't grow out of the air. Birds can't fly inside the ground. I don't believe it is possible for a conscious being to not have constraints, because those constraints are what brought them to where they are in the first place. Something does not come out of nothing. There are no giant leaps in development. Man does not come from rib, he comes from primate. By the time humans evolve the ability to do anything that they can't now, they will no longer be human.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I wouldn't class that as a human, I would class that as a biomachine. I have nothing against that, we're all mechanical... our brains work off of electrical impulses just like computers do. But if I knew a biomachine could reason and be aware of things beyond mere calculation, to me it would be wrong... I would pity it, for that is being born a slave.

Well, I think that's where the question comes up.  Why are we precluding it to be a slave? If it DOES perfectly mimic a human, shouldn't it have the rights we do?

• Are the mentally handicapped fully human? What about those in a vegetative state? What about babies? Why?

Yes they are all human. Our cognitive state does not dictate what we are. Everyone has different combinations of genes. Some have better than others. Some have damaged bodies. This doesn't change their species. They are as human as you or me.

But where does that end? Does a severed hand have rights? It is, after all, genetically human.  It may not be able to cognate, but that ability doesn't preclude its humanity, right?

Furthermore, what about someone with Down syndrome, or any other condition that results from genetic alterations/mutations? Are they less (or more) human than those with normal genes? If not, where is the line drawn?

I'd like to think 'higher' lifeforms would be reasonable by human standards and would have had their own respective histories of slavery and rights movements. Or maybe they were smarter to begin with. It begs the question is there a limit to intelligence? Outside of the constraints of a human brain....What could a larger brain achieve? I think if they were as intelligent or more intelligent than humans we could communicate and reason and debate our interspecies philosophy.

Perhaps a glimpse into expanded intelligence is the concept of synesthesia.  Apparently, savants like Daniel Tammet can solve math problems so quickly because they see the colors and shapes of the component numbers coming together to form a new number: the answer.  They don't have to go through the steps we do.

Who knows what more advanced intelligences exist? One thing's for sure: we probably can't even begin to comprehend what they'd be like.

[PANZERCATWAGON]

i guess it would seem like there is no point to me replying as all i am going to do is state my opinion and not discuss any of the points made above. my reasoning is that i do not want to discuss any of your points mainly because i cannot be bothered but also because i have no qualms with any of your points. you can read what i am about to write. or not. i am not fussed. and of course that is up to you

now that that is over with:

What makes us human?

i dont know. we refer to our minds and bodies as being human and that is from our point of view. we may very well not be. it is only for the sake of our conversation that it matters

what makes humans distinct from animals?

how we reference them. and again limited to our point of view

From sufficiently advanced robots?

as above

Should animals have the same rights as humans?

we make the rights. the importance and purpose of them is relevant to us. if animals could they would probably take over the world tomorrow and make their own rights. i dont think it matters whether or not they should. the situation is as it is and that is that

Should humans have the same rights as robots?

as above

Is it possible to lose our humanity?

i believe so

Would a brain encased in a mechanical body be a human?

i suppose that depends how you define human. it would probably be defined as something different by that stage. as for where you draw the line i suppose that depends on how the dictionary or scientists would state the change

What if that brain was transferred to an identical computer, resulting in a completely lifeless entity?

then it would probably be called an artificial intelligence

Is there a non-physical component to humanity?

i do not understand enough about consciousness to say. but i would hazard a guess at no

Do souls exist?

i do not believe they do in the way most people talk about them. i think there is a great possibility that there may be existence for us as individuals outside of our bodies as we refer to them though

Is a body still human after it has died?

no. i think one of the qualifications for 'being' human is that you must be alive

Is a clump of cells still human before it's been born?

again no. obviously there is a point at which those cells become what we call human but i cannot say where that point would be

Are the mentally handicapped fully human?

yes

What about those in a vegetative state?

yes

What about babies? Why?

yes. because we define them as human

If we have the right to own pets and livestock, should sufficiently advanced aliens or artificial intelligences have the same right with respect to us?

probably. if they chose to. after all they would be the ones making the rights i take it

Do the rights of the more advanced take precedence of the less advanced, or is there simply a critical point past which all intelligent beings have equal rights?

i do not believe so. if you have the more power you can make the rights. i do not believe there is a mandatory moral code that exists outside of this rights constructing scenario

Suppose our consciousness transcends our physical bodies.  Are we still human?

we might be referred to as such. we also might not be. i would say that there would probably have healthy doses of both

Are we superhuman?

i suppose you could define it as such

Suppose two people shared a consciousness.  Do they become one person?

i should think if it was known the consciousness had two bodies that we would refer to both being the one person

Suppose the world shared one consciousness.  Suppose the universe did.  What then?

as above

• Are humans defined by the ability to err?

i assume that 'err' means think. i do not believe so. i have met some people in my life that certainly have almost no ability to rationalize the world and are still referred to as human

Is a perfect person human?

probably. yes

Could a human become a god?

if you had the ability to make it happen i suppose so. yes

Could a god become a human?

i think in order to first be a god in the way that we talk about it you might need to fit that bill. so yes

What is a god?

i think we define it as something like entity that has some kind of other worldly existance and is able to think and do pretty much anything that we can imagine it might be able to do


nice questions[/list]