1.6 New maps, post your opinions.

[soulblade]

Shoozza would like to know what you think about the new maps and remakes. Also which maps do you think were worth remaking and which should stay as they were before.

Please post informed opinions only (i.e. make sure you've actually played the map more than a couple of times!)

New Maps
Tigran
ctf_Campeche
ctf_Triumph
ctf_Scorpion
htf_Feast
htf_Dorothy
htf_Mossy
htf_Tower
inf_April
inf_Belltower
inf_Changeling
inf_Motheaten
inf_Warlock
inf_Flute

Remakes
Veoto
ctf_Kampf
ctf_Lanubya
ctf_Maya2 (renamed ctf_Mayapan)
ctf_Ruins
ctf_Run
ctf_Snakebite
ctf_Viet
inf_Argy
inf_Fortress
inf_Outpost

[DarkCrusade]

Maybe add links to all the modified/new maps so we can judge them?

[Colonel ONeill]

F12 for the remake of Snakebite, but a very big F11 for Ruins.

Estheticly speaking, the map is awful. Even the gameplay is modified, and it now has nothing to see with the original Ruins. It "ruined" the whole map. I can understand it had to be modified in some points, such as polybugs and the "impossibility" tu run very fast at some places", but someone who knew the map well didn't have big problems with it. And what's this unuseful poly in front of the base ? I mean, in the past we could boost our teammates into the middle, now we have to go low or up first... And why the holes into low at the middle of the map aren't the same ? It's totally RIDICULOUS, as it's gonna change everything...

So a very big F11 for the remake of Ruins, bring back the old one please...

[Kaze]

I think most of the new maps were well done , and the goal was to increase their popularity , that's why i don't mind if Kampf , run , Maya2 were modified.

As for Viet , SnakeBite and Ruins , I do think the changes shouldnt have been made because those maps were already popular maybe not ruins , but if you look at viet and snakebite and the percentage they've been played in SCTFL , those maps were already popular.. And they were even some clan's map and their only hope to do good in playoffs and in the overall SCTFL competition .

Now let me go into detail

Viet for example used to takes place at the top of the map, with the low/mid routes used for tactical rushes to try and sneak a cap
But now in the new version of the map , we can clearly see that the middle/low  way on viet is WAY more accessible . The whole purpose of the UP on viet was to see which defense was the weakest and therefore the team with the best offense would be able to cap many times from the UP way but since viet has been changed and the mid/low routes have been modified , its easier to get caps from mid or low , destroying the whole purpose of viet itself and the viet's UP way as well.

As for Snakebite , the same analogy could work , The Low way on snakebite became way more accessible making it easier to cap from low , even though you guys tried to change this problem by making bullets go trough some of the low walls , it also helps the low guy to spray if an EFC ( Enemy Flag Carrier ) wants to cap , all of his efforts would be ruined just by the simple fact of this wall that can enable bullets to go trough.

And The UP way became less closed , what  i mean by that is that you can spray from basically one side of the up to the other without touching any walls ruining rushs from UP.

And for ruins , the black background ruins the map completely , ruins was already a good and well designed map , i don't see the point in changing that . I completely agree with what oneill said on ruins.

Of course There's no doubt about  the fact that the whole point in remaking some of the maps was to increase their popularity but those maps were already popular in competitive gameplay basically  the changes of  viet/snake/ruins basically reduced the number of people that liked those maps therefore less and less players are going to play those maps . In other words , instead of making those maps popular you're doing the opposite..

Well , i dont want to belittle the effort of the mapmakers and the devs but i'm just saying i liked your remakes of the maps that werent played ( except in publics serversof 12 players ;P)  like run , kampf  , maya , thats a good change and im with it but as for ruins , viet and snake , its totally not needed.

Notice that everything that has been said by me , goes for the competitive gameplay and not in public servers (except for kampf/run/maya) because 3v3's are way different than 6v6s therefore , a public player doesnt need as much things as a competitive player.

[DutchFlame]

I like the remakes alot, since most of these maps were like never played/barely and now they're smaller etc. Makes them more popular again and worth playing in.

I don't quite get why Viet was remade, because that map is basically the same. The only good thing is that it looks a bit nicer now. (using up more fps)..Also Viet was popular so yeah.. no kinda reason to remake it.

[machina]

Maybe add links to all the modified/new maps so we can judge them?

It would be really nice...

[soulblade]

Maybe add links to all the modified/new maps so we can judge them?

It would be really nice...

Are they not included with the new soldat? Why would you need any links?

[L[0ne]R]

New Maps
Tigran
Haven't actually got a chance to play on it, but from what I've seen in single-player - there's nothing wrong with it. A nice-looking small map with a nice layout.

ctf_Campeche
Very fun little CTF map. There were a few bugs with the top of the pyramid, but overall it was very enjoyable to play on it.

ctf_Triumph
Also a nice CTF map with a pretty interesting layout. Not digging the visuals much though, but it's more a matter of taste.

ctf_Scorpion
The idea with falling flags just doesn't work because
1) It's extremely easy to miss the flag as it falls down (probably due to a small hit box of a soldier and/or flag)
2) If friendly units camp in flag's path - it creates "flag returned flag returned flag returned flag returned" spam.
Gameplay isn't that fun either mainly because most of the action occurs in that narrow passage in the middle route. And because there isn't much cover or room for movement, usually the winner is the one who takes position and shoots first. Other routes are rarely used.

htf_Feast
Doesn't look like anything special to me.

htf_Dorothy
Layout is pretty basic, but the visuals are interesting and fresh.

htf_Mossy
Uhh.. not sure what to say about this one. It doesn't look like it would be good for HTF layout-wise. There aren't many spots that are good for defense.

htf_Tower
Not bad.

inf_April
Not digging the visuals, but the layout has proven to be nice.

inf_Belltower
A decent map.

inf_Changeling
inf_Motheaten
Very fun layout and nice visuals, although a bit dull and lack atmosphere, but that's just my opinion.

inf_Warlock
I haven't played the latest version of it, but to me it doesn't seem like far-right side will be used often. Too far away and too well-guarded, just not worth the effort. I think it would be better to have white flag placed in far-right. I've made such version of this map and play-tested it with people multiple times and we all enjoyed it.

inf_Flute
Didn't get the chance to playtest it, so can't comment much on that. All I can say is.. it doesn't feel very INFy somehow..



Remakes
Veoto
It's nice. Nothing extraordinary, but still amusing.

ctf_Kampf
Nice map, nice remake, nothing else to add. I like.

ctf_Lanubya
I think the remake lost quite a lot of "flowiness" that the original had. The routes aren't as clearly defined and it's easy to switch between them. Nothing really stands out.

ctf_Maya2 (renamed ctf_Mayapan)
Feels too small, especially bases. Map texture along with the orange-yellowish color scheme makes it look like puke, literally. :S With all due respect to the author, I like the original better, sorry.

ctf_Ruins
Layout just doesn't feel right, not sure why. Visuals aren't great either. Brown+purple color scheme just doesn't work. Lack of sceneries creates a strange cartoony look which I'm not a fan of in vanilla game.

ctf_Run
I like the visuals and additions to the middle route (like more sceneries you can camp behind), but overall it's just not the same map, not even close.
1) It's a lot smaller which makes it much more fast-paced.
2) Lower route is a lot wider, which again makes combat there more fast-paced and less unique.
3) Middle and top route are narrower which.... not that it's bad gameplay-wise, but it just doesn't feel like original Run anymore. It's a whole different map, but at the same time - a whole lot more generic. Large size and open space is what make original Run so unique.

ctf_Viet
Again, it feels smaller than it should be. Base vs hill combat just doesn't feel as interesting anymore. Middle route is too easy to access. It's not even supposed to be a route. More like hiding place for a flagger, which is harder to access and easier to defend.

inf_Argy
From what I can tell, it's still ugly and unbalanced, just like the original map. Never been a fan of it.

inf_Fortress
Yeah, I made it, but I still have an opinion to share. Fixed bugs and additional kit spawns seem like a nice addition. Visuals are a lot nicer too, though overall style somewhat differs from the style of most other maps, mainly because of the shading. Could be just me though.

inf_Outpost
More curves in the tunnel and extra passageway to the right of statgun look like nice additions balance-wise, but somehow it still feels like something's missing.. Again, could be just me.

[Squakingcow]

I like the remakes alot, since most of these maps were like never played/barely and now they're smaller etc. Makes them more popular again and worth playing in.

I don't quite get why Viet was remade, because that map is basically the same. The only good thing is that it looks a bit nicer now. (using up more fps)..Also Viet was popular so yeah.. no kinda reason to remake it.

Looks are subjective, to me the new viet looks like a baby has vomited on it, I liked the simplicity of the original. The fact is with soldat you will never be able to make something look 'realistic', and in attempting to you just make things look worse.

With regards to the actual game play of the maps I can only reiterate what kaze said, making the low routes on viet/snakebite easier to use and more accessible defeats the purpose of the maps, and in turn changes why people liked the maps in the first place.

Remaking viet/snakebite also seems completely illogical to me since the initial intention when remaking a number of the maps was to make unpopular maps that were barely played more popular, and viet/snakebite have always been fairly popular as shown by the stats from the last ~8 seasons of SCTFL.

You'll never be able to make every map as popular as ash/rotten etc. and attempting to do so seems futile. Snakebite/viet were played because the way they were played was relatively unique compared to other maps, trying to make them more like other maps (i.e. pushing the gameplay more towards a 2 up 1 tactic) will reduce popularity in the long term.

[machina]

Maybe add links to all the modified/new maps so we can judge them?

It would be really nice...

Are they not included with the new soldat? Why would you need any links?

Just the pictures... I'm not good with remembering those names. Screenshots of the whole maps shouldn't be so big problem to add...

[Poop]

My opinions are the same they were last year, and I only have an opinion on CTF maps, as those are the only new maps I have actually played.

New Maps
ctf_Campeche
ctf_Triumph
ctf_Scorpion - I am fine with the other 2 new maps. This map is simply not fun. I have played it several times in clanwars and gathers and the whole process of playing it is completely awkward. The map is also way too large for a 3v3 situation.


Remakes
ctf_Kampf - Yes
ctf_Lanubya - Yes
ctf_Maya2 (renamed ctf_Mayapan) - Yes
ctf_Ruins - Yes
ctf_Run - Yes
ctf_Snakebite - NO
ctf_Viet - NO

In terms of the remakes, my opinion is simply that unplayed maps being remade cannot actually hurt their popularity (Since its 0 already). Most of the unpopular map remakes are done nicely, because they are being made smaller and more compact, which is basically what is fun in soldat.

Snakebite and Viet remakes simply are not a good move. Remaking popular maps is not necessary because the possibility exists of actually ruining the maps popularity. It is cliched for a reason, don't fix what is not broken.

[ginn]

campeche and scorpion are pretty horrible...
Viet is fine, the only change is that the mid rout is now possible to take.
Ruins remake is good, the old ruins were barely functioning, filled with polybugs and it was impossible to get any fluent movement.

Snakebite remake is bad, because now the low rout is pretty darn useless, since you can just spray low from the main rout...

The new maps/remakes have like 300-400 less fps, I don't get why you've done this....
And, I don't see why you bother to do remakes if you don't fix the fucking balance of the maps....

[L[0ne]R]

In terms of the remakes, my opinion is simply that unplayed maps being remade cannot actually hurt their popularity (Since its 0 already). Most of the unpopular map remakes are done nicely, because they are being made smaller and more compact, which is basically what is fun in soldat.

Unplayed maps? In gathers/clanwars/leagues - maybe, but again, don't forget about public servers. There these maps are played almost just as often as Ash and the like.

Making all maps small and generic won't make the game more fun... Sure fast-paced battles with explosions everywhere may be fun, but too much of a good thing is a bad thing. There needs to be some variation between small-medium-large maps, as they affect nearly every aspect of the game - pace, tactics, weapon choices, and overall feel of the gameplay. I think it's important to keep that variation and keep the number of small and big maps balanced. From what I see so far - small generic maps are taking over while large maps are getting removed.

[Amida]

Short summary, don't want to waste too much time on this:

New Maps

inf_April
Not sure why, but this map doesn't feel like an infiltration map, guess the routes are too big, F11
inf_Belltower
Decent map, preferably for realistic F12
inf_Motheaten
Great map F12
inf_Warlock
Not bad F12


Remakes

ctf_Viet
Old version was better F11
inf_Argy
I like how someone actually tried to balance it *thumbs up* F12
inf_Fortress
Useless background which is distracting, a few spawn points moved, still unbalanced  F11
inf_Outpost
The new route doesn't help the balance at all, the only good thing about this map is that one alpha spawn is moved to the camo net area, other than that not too great but F12

[machina]

I'll rate only ctf maps, because i care only about them (like most of you )...

ctf_Campeche
This map looks done very well... There's lot of space (in up) to fight. F12

ctf_Triumph
It's okay map, but isn't flags to close...? I don't know... It will be brought a lot of bleed right there F12

ctf_Scorpion
Those falling down flags make a chaos on map... There shouldn't be anything like this in a official map... It sticks out from definition of correct ctf map. F11


ctf_Kampf
Nothing bad in this remake... F12

ctf_Lanubya
It's a new other map! Now it's some casual! "Caves" (in up and down) are much bigger... Also pit in a bridge (middle of map) is fucking huge! Fuck no! Give us back Lanubya! F11

ctf_Maya2 (renamed ctf_Mayapan)
Those colors suck... Green colors ware quite better. Also this new crap above bases is some campa zone? I don't think so that anyone will get there to hide himself from the bullets. Camper will bring him back before he will get there... F11/F12

ctf_Ruins
Holy fuck! Thank name I've remembered how this map looked before... I really don't agree why changes are so big! Anyway... F12

ctf_Run
Oh my fucking goodness! No, never! Another casual huge caves... And what have you dane with up!? Now, it's crappy small like this whole map! F11 

ctf_Snakebite
Ech! I prefered map without these all holes... Ultimately, I can accept it... F12

ctf_Viet
It's okay! I don't admit any problems with it... F12

I hope my sugestions will be heard... That's all from me!

[PQ]

If it's still the same remake of snakebite with the sprayhole to the lower part at the base then I say no. It's a total sprayhole, you're able to shoot trough the total lower route over there which makes the lower route even less useful.

[darDar]

I like the remake of laos
why not add ctf freefall again to the maplist ?

[Jerkington XIII]

New Maps
ctf_Campeche - yeah
ctf_Triumph - goes
ctf_Scorpion - No, this is NOTHING you want to be default. The concept is the first thing to nitpick. It is special, custom, whatever word you wanna use, but in any case, it's not a too fast paced normal ctf map. Could fit RS tho. Second, the height and high. It feels large at first, but it doesn't really take long to walk to the other base. High is impassable because of that statue (though it's a good way to pass flag, but it would be better if there would be an easy way out). The placing and timing has to be exact to get the flags, though you can help it by shooting. I could write an essay, but i don't feel like it.
Remakes
ctf_Kampf - Green light
ctf_Maya2 (renamed ctf_Mayapan) - well yea, General changes are nice. However, why does the map feel so small?  and what the heck are the platforms over the spawns?

]I didn't rewiew all the maps yet, because it seems like i overwrote something when i migrated to 1.6.0

Got 'em:
ctf_Lanubya - I leave the opinion for others.
ctf_Ruins - godda- this discohouse is our new ruins? i can very well understand what the other haters are all about. Yea, i think it's more stylish, but that's enough positive. my ricos at the bottom are "ruined" and about the spawns, the first sniper getting there will slaughter, with some support, most of the spawning guys. the up is way too open, and the bottom is way too closed and complex. it should be the other way around. definite NO!
ctf_Run - the changes are way too radical. Really, it looks like another casual, but playable map you sometimes see at leo's ctf. Is run really supposed to be
              -that small
              -again, that small
              -way too open-low (you are now at better place to snipe from low to up, and even though it helps team getting low, it's not good change)
              -that curved. generally i would approve, but worst possible placing made me faceclaw.
              -open flag, and closed up-spawn... oh wait that was positive. Still, the question remains: IS IT? NO! for me
ctf_Snakebite - the only one of the remakes i hate, but could let thru. up is kinda open, and there's some good corners. I'd rather take the old one, but I'd say if you have to add this- do it
>ctf_Viet - I'd approve, but the mid way is way too visible and open now. otherwise yea, i have no problems with this, but then again, I don't really care for this map, so you can overread from ">".

[CheeSeMan.]

I'll just talk about ctf maps!

ctf_Scorpion - is really quite a horrible map, its is nice to see something a bit different... but really this map is too big for this type of concept... it is just agonising to play... it needs to be smaller, the bottom part of the map could be completely removed and the top route should be opened(remove that retarded statue... like I posted on the original topic of Scorpion I believe this would be better: however, i have no mapping skills so couldn't try it

ctf_Triumph - this is a nice facepaced map that its really fun to play.

ctf_Campeche - I think this map has potential though it feels extremely strange when playing it, but maybe thats a good thing, i'd like to see this one have a shot

remakes:

Kampf,snakebite,run and mayapan look like they will be great, don't see any problems there. Lanubya   feels a bit awkward and too open, however, this map is played barely ever so I think the remake is justified.

ctf_Viet - I don't see any problem with the original why are we replacing it with this version which is worse... small curvy... its just bizarre! this is an original default soldat map it should look the part!

ctf_Ruins - Yes this map needs a revamp that is certain, theres so many polygon bugs on it its just ridiculous... but god what happened in this remake... it now looks even worse and is even harder to run mid!


now when do we get to whine about weapon mod because thats what i'm really worried about

[machina]

ctf_Run cannot change like that... Dear developers, don't give us 1.6.0 with fucked and unplayable new-old maps!