What needs to be done.

[ginn]

Skoskav is doing a pretty good job for somebody who doesn't play the game... However, as he doesn't know how the game is played, the weapon balance is off (noticed especially in the 1.5.2 -> 1.5.3 wm)
As the weapons get stronger and stronger, the game play gets slower and slower, this is a really bad trend.

How do you fix weapons balancing?
Well, Bullets should have "Bullet mass", which would decide how much bullet push a weapon does. So for example, Minimi could be less damage, but have high bullet push. AK having slightly more dmg but next to no bullet push.
Same would go for mp5 and steyr.

There's also the damage modifiers, as it is now it's almost completely up to luck if it regs as a hs/miss/torso/legs. Fryer suggested an interesting idea, however, I don't think there should be damage modifiers (not for nades either, instead they should always do something like 60% dmg).
Neither should any weapon have movement inaccuracy, as this too is just slowing down game play.

Now, if all this is made, the game will be very clean.
An issue you might start to see now is that ruger would be impossible to balance. However, I believe the balancing should rather rely on movement speed instead of "head shots".
In order to 2 hit kill with ruger, you'd have to meet a certain speed. Now, you might have to make the inherited speed add extra damage, making the formula something like this: bulletspeed*(playerspeed*2)*bulletdamage/1000, or just simply make a Playerspeedmodifier in the weapons balance.

Anyhow... that's the way I think soldat should head.

[Adam]

and how does this make gameplay any faster

[ginn]

camping won't give you the aim advantage, and rushers won't die in half a second, especially with no damage multiplier for nades.

[Bonecrusher]

spas is op

[Fryer]

bulletspeed*(playerspeed*2)*bulletdamage/1000

I suppose you mean (bulletspeed+playerspeed*2)*bulletdamage/1000? Even if this is considered, I hope we can find a better solution than multiplying the player speed by some modifier, since that is IMO a bit too far from realism even for a game like Soldat.

[Clawbug]

Problems I see:
1) Gameplay isn't deterministic enough, too big "luck" factor in form of hit registration and weapon inaccuracy.

2) Weapon balance is highly related to map in question. It is very hard, if not impossible, make  "one balance fits all" weapon balance because player distance and position determine the outcome along with the chosen weapons, as it should be. However, as these change from map to map, and as the nature of new maps are small corridors and quarters, this skews the weapon balance to favor weapons which work well at short ranges. In CTF on modern maps there's very little(compared to older maps) use for weapons which work well from longer distances for example.

3) Currently defensive gameplay has huge advantage especially with certain weapons. This is because of bullet push and the nature of the weapons and the fact that a stationary floating/standing player is far more accurate than a rushing one.

4) Grenades play a huge role in combat situations, especially in modern, small maps. Combat is more about hitting your grenade AND being lucky that it registers, than anything else. Their potential is far too significant.

Solutions I have:
1) (luck, non-determinism):
  Reduce "random factors" to a practical minimum. Get rid of bink, make weapons shoot as straight as practically possible, improve network code.

2) (map size):
  Reduce the impact of bullet speed on weapon damage or reduce the relative bullet speed differences among weapons. Preferrably both. In other words, reduce the difference of "short range" weapons and "long range" weapons. Also, decrease Spas pellet spread in order to make it more balanced over longer distances.

3) (defensive advantage):
  Reduce bullet push, FIX knife not having player velocity added to it.(This was originally probably a bug anyway). Get rid of any form of movement inaccuracy.

4) (grenades):
  Get rid of hit/damage modifiers for grenades, so every grenade hit is as lethal as others. Reduce grenade damage so that they aren't insta-kill even if they hit feet. To compensate the potential slower gameplaty, completely remove the delay of both knife and LAW.

Thankyou.

[Adam]

Problems I see:


Solutions I have:
1) (luck, non-determinism):
  Reduce "random factors" to a practical minimum. Get rid of bink, make weapons shoot as straight as practically possible, improve network code.

+1 but shoot straight as possible ehh would be kinda too easy

[Clawbug]

Problems I see:


Solutions I have:
1) (luck, non-determinism):
  Reduce "random factors" to a practical minimum. Get rid of bink, make weapons shoot as straight as practically possible, improve network code.

+1 but shoot straight as possible ehh would be kinda too easy

No, it wouldn't. Shooting straight in this context means "as little bullet spread as possible". That wouldn't make things any easier at least. The contrary, more about skill and less about luck.

[machina]

spas is op

Yea, horrendously (in realistic)... And it wasn't fixed since two versions or more...

[Bonecrusher]

I agree with overall reducing weapon power[bullet speed/dmg], this would refresh the gameplay. Hopefully also create better gaming enviroment.

3) (defensive advantage):
  Reduce bullet push, FIX knife not having player velocity added to it.(This was originally probably a bug anyway). Get rid of any form of movement inaccuracy.

Two proper cannonballs and knife could be thrown with a half of the map lenght. I wouldn't like that

[Clawbug]

I agree with overall reducing weapon power[bullet speed/dmg], this would refresh the gameplay. Hopefully also create better gaming enviroment.

3) (defensive advantage):
  Reduce bullet push, FIX knife not having player velocity added to it.(This was originally probably a bug anyway). Get rid of any form of movement inaccuracy.

Two proper cannonballs and knife could be thrown with a half of the map lenght. I wouldn't like that

What are these cannonballs? You call already shoot LAW half of the map length. Or use M79. Or Barrett. Or Grenades. How would knife be something you'd dislike? Or do you dislike the other weapons too?

[Bistoufly]

3) (defensive advantage):
  Reduce bullet push, FIX knife not having player velocity added to it.(This was originally probably a bug anyway). Get rid of any form of movement inaccuracy.

Two proper cannonballs and knife could be thrown with a half of the map lenght. I wouldn't like that

Of course not Bonecrusher. Don't worry.
Knife throwing would simply be made similar to nade throwing.

[Adam]

why not just make a server with your custom made weapon balance and let others test it

[Clawbug]

why not just make a server with your custom made weapon balance and let others test it

This has been done many times, the beta team plays(or at least used to play, when I was in) actively different kinds of weapon balances and gathers player experiences to make further decisions on the weapon balance. This alone isn't sufficient though, the weapons aren't balanced when we start talking about "damage over time" and other statistics we can gather and their influence on the weapon balance.

In short, balancing the weapons is an art and science on it's own right, it's impossible to get "right", and needs constant adjustments. It is never perfect, although perfection should be desired at all times.

[Bonecrusher]

@combat knife

I think it should stay as it is, what needs to be fixed is nades and wep balance. Knife is short range 1hit kill wep and I dont see why it should be changed. Plus the 'adding players speed to knife throw' thing was discussed before and from what I remember we decided its not a good idea.

[Clawbug]

@combat knife

I think it should stay as it is, what needs to be fixed is nades and wep balance. Knife is short range 1hit kill wep and I dont see why it should be changed. Plus the 'adding players speed to knife throw' thing was discussed before and from what I remember we decided its not a good idea.

The way knife works promotes defensive gameplay over offensive and maintaining height-advanage over enemy, I feel that this unnecessarily complicates gameplay and makes balancing weapons harder, is illogical and is probably based on a bug rather than being an intended feature in the game.

Making knife work like other weapons, by adding the player velocity to the knife, would fasten the pace of the game, make knife more usable, allow nerfing grenades damage and hit modifiers, removing or at least greatly reducing LAW startup time and perhaps even delay in knife. All of which would contribute to more fluid, fast paced, predictable gameplay.

[13th_account]

1) Gameplay isn't deterministic enough, too big "luck" factor in form of hit registration and weapon inaccuracy.

Weapon inaccuracies will be handled better in the next version. No more 33% hit chance when your Barrett is super-binked. Stacking inaccuracies (e.g. bink + moveacc) works better. So in that regard the game will be more "deterministically random" rather than "quirky random," because based on what gun you're using, what speed you're moving at, what you're doing and whether you're being binked or selfbinked, you can estimate how likely it is that your shots will hit. As for hit registration issues, that will be dealt with at some point in the future.

2) Weapon balance is highly related to map in question. It is very hard, if not impossible, make  "one balance fits all" weapon balance because player distance and position determine the outcome along with the chosen weapons, as it should be. However, as these change from map to map, and as the nature of new maps are small corridors and quarters, this skews the weapon balance to favor weapons which work well at short ranges. In CTF on modern maps there's very little(compared to older maps) use for weapons which work well from longer distances for example.

Challenge accepted!

3) Currently defensive gameplay has huge advantage especially with certain weapons. This is because of bullet push and the nature of the weapons and the fact that a stationary floating/standing player is far more accurate than a rushing one.

I've recently been playing with builds of Soldat that instead of having all bullets give constant amount of bullet push, has their push based on what the damage would be, so basically the bullet's momentum. It would have the effect of making autos and Spas boost less, and semis more. Example of push over time when normalizing on AK (so its push remains unchanged):
Before: http://skoskav.org/etc/soldat/etc/bulletpush/1.png
After: http://skoskav.org/etc/soldat/etc/bulletpush/2.png

Though having it be moddable in the WM independently from the damage and speed is another, possibly better, option. It's certainly a more flexible one.

As for moveacc, it will be replaced on some weapons with a new WM attribute called BulletSpread that works as a constant inaccuracy. So e.g. autos' bullets are always going a few pixels up or down, not only when the players are moving. For weapons that shoot multiple bullets at once (Deagles, Spas) it works as the spread between the bullets. So they can be given a tighter or looser grouping through the WM. Some weapons (Ruger, Barrett, Minimi) will still keep their moveacc in order to stay balanced.

As for knife I would first need to hear thoughts from other clan players on tweaking its velocity, as they could easily rage.

4) Grenades play a huge role in combat situations, especially in modern, small maps. Combat is more about hitting your grenade AND being lucky that it registers, than anything else. Their potential is far too significant.

I would also need to hear thoughts from other clan players on tweaking nades and startup, as they could easily rage.

[ginn]

well, clawbug seem to be suggesting practically the same things as I.

Anyway, movement acc shouldn't be in the game, as imo, it just ruins it. Bink however, should stay, as it balances certain weapons.
High potential guns like ruger, spas and DE shouldn't just rely on aim, it should rely on speed as well.

The problem with bulletpush being decided by damage won't change anything really, seems like it's only gonna reduce it slightly.

[STM1993]

As for moveacc, it will be replaced on some weapons with a new WM attribute called BulletSpread that works as a constant inaccuracy. So e.g. autos' bullets are always going a few pixels up or down, not only when the players are moving. For weapons that shoot multiple bullets at once (Deagles, Spas) it works as the spread between the bullets. So they can be given a tighter or looser grouping through the WM. Some weapons (Ruger, Barrett, Minimi) will still keep their moveacc in order to stay balanced.

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

[ginn]

I don't see why weapons should have any movement inaccuracy at all, all it does is to promote "camping".
Rather making weapons to a set amount of bulletpush instead.

bulletspeed*(playerspeed*2)*bulletdamage/1000

I suppose you mean (bulletspeed+playerspeed*2)*bulletdamage/1000? Even if this is considered, I hope we can find a better solution than multiplying the player speed by some modifier, since that is IMO a bit too far from realism even for a game like Soldat.

Yes, that is what I meant. I believe making rugers fireinterval higher and balance it's damage very carefully could fix it - forcing players to not go straight up vs autos.
Otherwise changing the formula to (Constant+playerspeed)*bulletdamage/1000, where constant is a value similar to the bullets initial speed.

[13th_account]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

[ginn]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

if you're using the "english" language option, it's translated to "Jet 2".
I'll see if I can make it work...

[STM1993]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

Can't promise anything, I'll see what I can do when I'm free.

Gave it a bit of experimentation. I tried leaving the hands (as in the "Hand Special" points) at the exact same location through all the frames and also tried following the exact same position as the standing position's, angle didn't change at all. However if I were to just replace the animation with "stoi" (standing), it works perfectly until you crouch, because the first bullet you fire is from the crouch animation while subsequent bullets fired are taken from the shoot animation.

So it seems like the whole arm is involved and that the shooting animation must coincide with the previous animation. Minigun has its own animation it seems, looks like the crouch animation's. And from what I figure, the shooting animation doesn't reset on firing the 2nd shot (ie the previous shot's animation still plays through, there is no override), because if it did then the MP5 shouldn't be alternating but follow the Aug's pattern of having only the 1st shot accurate.

EDIT:
Hmm, cutting short the animation seems to work, but not for all fireintervals.

[ginn]

ok, so now I have an animation with no inaccuracy... however, there's still inaccuracy applied when walking etc. I think it might actually be easier to just recode from where the bullets go. instead of editing several animations...

The only thing that matters is the left and right hands position.

[Clawbug]

Yes, that is what I meant. I believe making rugers fireinterval higher and balance it's damage very carefully could fix it - forcing players to not go straight up vs autos.
Otherwise changing the formula to (Constant+playerspeed)*bulletdamage/1000, where constant is a value similar to the bullets initial speed.

There's the problem that autos should be beaten by semi-autos in general. The holy trinity works like autos > 1shot > semi-autos > autos.

[ginn]

There's nothing an auto user can do to avoid getting killed by somebody using a semi out. where as somebody using a semi auto can shoot one shot, hide behind polygon and then shoot again. This doesn't work the other way around.
Just like you can't just rush up fron with a barrett, because you need to hide behind colliders and polygons to avoid getting binked.

Unless you give ruger quite a bit of bink, it'll stay broken.

[Zero Static]

Are you honestly trying to say ruger is overpowered? It has like the lowest usage of any gun apart from deagles, and is incredibly hard to use in competitive matches.

[Clawbug]

Are you honestly trying to say ruger is overpowered? It has like the lowest usage of any gun apart from deagles, and is incredibly hard to use in competitive matches.

That is because it is a semi-auto. In competitive matches reliability > maximum potential. In publics, gathers and fcws, maximum potential > reliability because it's not end of the game if you fuck up your shots once or twice, although the returns are still substantial if you manage to score those two hit kills. This can be clearly seen in the statistics from Gather and SCTFL provided by skoskav aka 13th_account in the thread concerning AUG, LAW and Grenades.

There's nothing that can be done to address the issue of reliability > maximum potential in important games, because such games aren't something you take risks in. You need to be able to trust first and foremost yourself and then your teammates. If someone fucks up, it can be the end of it. Nobody wants to be the one to fuck up.

On the other hand, Ruger really is one of the most powerful weapons in the game by it's practical "time to kill"(f.e. first two shots only have some 0.66s of delay) time(even if it misses a shot or two). That is, Ruger kills far faster than many other weapons on average, especially within it's own category when compared against Deagles. The flexibility of the weapon(especially if you can control your own expousure to the enemy bullets by staying behind a corner most of the time and only exposing yourself when firing, that is at best twice per kill), the relative ease of aiming due to fast and thus straight flying bullets(compare to e.g Spas or Deagles, both of which are it's direct competitors by being semi-autos) make it a very, very unbalanced weapon in my eyes.

The only way to counter a defensive Ruger player in 1v1 situation in almost any map is to use Barrett(OR Ruger, and then play defensively and hope that it works out) and even then, if the Ruger player plays defensively enough by having control over his own exposure to the enemy(keeps a corner between himself and the enemy) he can be near impossible to hit due to the delay of Barret - if Ruger player keeps his exposure low (less than the opponent reaction time + delay in barrett + barrett bullet's flight time) - which is well enough to fire a shot and cover. So, what can you do against a Ruger player who only exposes himself to fire a single shot at a time?

The problem is not only the fact that Ruger can kill you faster than any other weapon(excluding Spas, if from close range so that it kills with less than three hits - which doesn't happen against a good Ruger player who keeps distance anyway) potentially can even if they hit all their bullets from zero distance. The fundamental problem with Ruger is the nature of it. That it is very good weapon for defensive playing by strictly controlling exposure to enemy because 1) Fast bullets and thus 2) straight bullets which essentially make it easier to use than any other weapon - because they have slower bullets which requires more prediction of enemy movement in form of shooting towards the enemy position at the time of bullet impact and countering the bullet arc

The claim that Ruger wouldn't be overpowered is laughable - if it wasn't considered overpowered(by it's maximum potential which is devastating and impossible to counter as mentioned before) then a huge amount of players wouldn't bother trying to practice becoming better with it. Otherwise Ruger wouldn't be the most used weapon in #soldat.gather during the past two weeks(from a few days ago).

I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger.

[Zero Static]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

[ginn]

The guns balance hasn't been tackled in the right way.

[Clawbug]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

It wasn't the only argument, it was only a part of it, explaining why the matter is not only about the WM, but rather also about the fundamental aspect of how the weapon works as and how it is being used which makes it very hard to balance. On the other hand, 2 shot kiling Ruger is a real beast because of high maximum potential and lowering the maximum potential by increasing the fireinterval makes it even more riskier because a missed shot is much more critical. On the other hand, 3 shot killing ruger gets very limited by it's 4 bullet magazine.

Of course weapon maximum potential should be taken into account, that's what ultimately dictates what weapon people use. In general, people pick the weapon they believe they kill the fastest with. Although aiming for maximum potential can be risky, e.g. the difference between maximum potential and sustained performance is far greater with weapons which shoot less often, are harder to hit with etc. The differece between sustained performance and maximum potential is quite low for autos, while it's higher for semi-autos and especially 1shot weapons - this is why usage patterns differ among gather and "serious" games even thoug most of the playerbase remains the same.

I'm still wondering that if Ruger isn't considered to be overpowered, why is it used so much in gathers where people mainly practice their skills? What are the negative sides of Ruger apart from small magazine?

[Adam]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

It wasn't the only argument, it was only a part of it, explaining why the matter is not only about the WM, but rather also about the fundamental aspect of how the weapon works as and how it is being used which makes it very hard to balance. On the other hand, 2 shot kiling Ruger is a real beast because of high maximum potential and lowering the maximum potential by increasing the fireinterval makes it even more riskier because a missed shot is much more critical. On the other hand, 3 shot killing ruger gets very limited by it's 4 bullet magazine.

Of course weapon maximum potential should be taken into account, that's what ultimately dictates what weapon people use. In general, people pick the weapon they believe they kill the fastest with. Although aiming for maximum potential can be risky, e.g. the difference between maximum potential and sustained performance is far greater with weapons which shoot less often, are harder to hit with etc. The differece between sustained performance and maximum potential is quite low for autos, while it's higher for semi-autos and especially 1shot weapons - this is why usage patterns differ among gather and "serious" games even thoug most of the playerbase remains the same.

I'm still wondering that if Ruger isn't considered to be overpowered, why is it used so much in gathers where people mainly practice their skills? What are the negative sides of Ruger apart from small magazine?

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

[Dusty]

maybe it's the netcode

maybe it's you

I totally second what Clawbug said about the ruger's 1vs1 potential. I'm using it pretty much all the time and the only weapon I can think of that might be able to beat it is the barrett. Also the OP minimi of the previous versions used to be a tough opponent but not anymore.

[Adam]

maybe it's the netcode

maybe it's you

I totally second what Clawbug said about the ruger's 1vs1 potential. I'm using it pretty much all the time and the only weapon I can think of that might be able to beat it is the barrett. Also the OP minimi of the previous versions used to be a tough opponent but not anymore.

played it in a gather? or how about a clanwar where it actually counts you can't kill anyone with 2 shots cause of the eats unless you get two solid headshots and if you do i applaud you

[Clawbug]

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

So let's see:

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)

Code: [Select]

Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%


Then, you sir dare to question Dusty's gather or clanwar experience?(Who btw has been active in the scene since 2006) Honestly now.

[Dusty]

Yeah I've been doing just fine with it in the competitive games too.

[Adam]

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

So let's see:

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)

Code: [Select]

Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%


Then, you sir dare to question Dusty's gather or clanwar experience?(Who btw has been active in the scene since 2006) Honestly now.

yea now you should check which one of them actually did good in gathers

[Clawbug]

yea now you should check which one of them actually did good in gathers

How is that relevant to anything? Ruger users made most kills during the past 14 days(a few days ago), so isn't that alone an indcator? Your original claim was that you haven't seen people using Ruger, I wonder how that's even possible if you are active gather player. That put aside, isn't the fact that Ruger is the most used weapon in gathers an indicator that people acknowledge it's unmatched maximum potential and want to learn to use it? In other words, if Ruger wasn't considered a serious threat as in being a very powerful weapon, why would people bother trying to learn to use it?