Life and consciousness

[ginn]

I quite often think about what life and consciousness is. At first I usually was thinking about how humans separate themselves from animals, even though, I cannot find a legitimate reason.
As we experience life, might seem like we have something more than just a body and brain, due to our high intellect. However, if you would damage your brain, enough for it to cease normal functioning, your consciousness would be affected by it, such as, loss of memory, feelings, basic needs of self-care and so on.
Now, if we look even further into how much the body changes our consciousness, there's a baby who was born without a brain, only a brain stem. This baby will never feel nor learn. It is still a human, even though it cannot produce 'thoughts'.

Now when we know our consciousness is affected by our brain and body, we could start comparing ourselves to animals. Like we can, animals can too socialize, very much more primitive might be added, but there's still more than just primitive reflexes.
In other words, the only thing that differentiate us from animals is how our intelligence lets us have a much more 'controlled' perception of the world.


Seeing that we're very much like animals, what is actually one self?
If we were to attempt externalization, trough cloning everything instantly of a person, there would still be 2 different consciouses. Both would feel that they are the real one, as they share everything, but yet not being the same.
'Knowing' this you can start to think about how do you know you're you? There's no way of telling that you are the same person that you were 1 minute ago, as you simply remember and think that you are.
My next thought is that I as a mere 'brain' is no different than another persons 'brain', other than all it's 'content'. Trough these thoughts I could be anyone, and anyone could be me, as there's nothing to separate us.
We can know that we aren't somebody else, because we aren't them, but there's no fundamental base that separates us.
To conclude this wall of text, I will also conclude my thoughts. We aren't real, and death won't change anything, as you as something other than your brain never even existed.

So anyway, I find it fairly difficult to explain my thoughts on this, as I'd like to involve a lot of drawing to link certain things :p... Even if I had those tools, I'm not sure how well I'd be able to express this thought.

tl;dr: we don't exist.

[iDante]

There are some major problems with your reasoning.

My next thought is that I as a mere 'brain' is no different than another persons 'brain', other than all it's 'content'. Trough these thoughts I could be anyone, and anyone could be me, as there's nothing to separate us.

Our brains are different from those of other people. You cannot be anyone, you are just your brain. Not mine (phew).

We can know that we aren't somebody else, because we aren't them, but there's no fundamental base that separates us.

Yes, yes there is. Our brains. Ta dah!

To conclude this wall of text, I will also conclude my thoughts. We aren't real, and death won't change anything, as you as something other than your brain never even existed.

Nope.

[ginn]

There are some major problems with your reasoning.

My next thought is that I as a mere 'brain' is no different than another persons 'brain', other than all it's 'content'. Trough these thoughts I could be anyone, and anyone could be me, as there's nothing to separate us.

Our brains are different from those of other people. You cannot be anyone, you are just your brain. Not mine (phew).

We can know that we aren't somebody else, because we aren't them, but there's no fundamental base that separates us.

Yes, yes there is. Our brains. Ta dah!

You broke one paragraph in two, gj.

A brain is a brain, doesn't matter if it's barely functioning or functioning properly, thus, it's not a fundamental difference.

[Smegma]

A brain is a brain, doesn't matter if it's barely functioning or functioning properly, thus, it's not a fundamental difference.

Sweet, so me and a frog could be each other!

[iDante]

You broke one paragraph in two, gj.

Paragraphs usually don't have line breaks between each sentence.

A brain is a brain, doesn't matter if it's barely functioning or functioning properly, thus, it's not a fundamental difference.

No. There are measurable differences between everyone's brains.

[ginn]

You broke one paragraph in two, gj.

Paragraphs usually don't have line breaks between each sentence.

A brain is a brain, doesn't matter if it's barely functioning or functioning properly, thus, it's not a fundamental difference.

No. There are measurable differences between everyone's brains.

I assume you think there's a fundamental difference between a 22" monitor and a 23" monitor too.
Just like a TV is a TV, a brain is a brain... it's just 'one' component.

[Smegma]

I assume you think there's a fundamental difference between a 22" monitor and a 23" monitor too.
Just like a TV is a TV, a brain is a brain... it's just 'one' component.

While yes, a  human brain and a frog brain are both proper subsets of brain, that doesn't not mean they are fundamentally the same just that they fulfill certain requirements that allow them to be labelled brain.

Just walk into any TV store and try and purchase a 60" Plasma for the price of a 10" Tube TV with your argument.

[ginn]

So a dumb human is less of a human?

[Smegma]

So a dumb human is less of a human?

No, as I never spoke to anything regarding the definition of a human. Just as a 22" TV isn't any "less" of a TV than 23", as it still fulfills all requirements to be considered a TV. However, the two TVs are distinctly different.

[ginn]

So a dumb human is less of a human?

No, as I never spoke to anything regarding the definition of a human. Just as a 22" TV isn't any "less" of a TV than 23", as it still fulfills all requirements to be considered a TV. However, the two TVs are distinctly different.

Yes, so, just because human brains are different, doesn't make them something else.

Because there's nothing that separates us, we aren't any different, I am just as much you, as I am a complete clone of myself.
However, my consciousness is from this body, so I am not somebody else.

[Smegma]

Yes, so, just because human brains are different, doesn't make them something else.

No, I believe you are not grasping that two things can belong to a larger definition while still being different. Two different human brains, while still human brains, are different. It may also be because of these differences that another distinct personality arises.

You are just as much HUMAN as I am. However, you distinguish yourself between another, so there must be something different, otherwise you could not tell.

[ginn]

Yes, so, just because human brains are different, doesn't make them something else.

No, I believe you are not grasping that two things can belong to a larger definition while still being different. Two different human brains, while still human brains, are different. It may also be because of these differences that another distinct personality arises.

You are just as much HUMAN as I am. However, you distinguish yourself between another, so there must be something different, otherwise you could not tell.

Consciousness is very much like an observer, everyone is their own 'observer', however, there's no difference between these observers. The 'observer' you are, could just as well have been observing somebody else.

Just as humans, all life has their own 'observer', though, obviously having very varying perspectives.

[Smegma]

however, there's no difference between these observers.

Just as humans, all life has their own 'observer', though, obviously having very varying perspectives.

Well then they clearly are different.

[ginn]

however, there's no difference between these observers.

Just as humans, all life has their own 'observer', though, obviously having very varying perspectives.

Well then they clearly are different.

A camera is still the same camera even if it's using other optics...

[Smegma]

A camera is still the same camera even if it's using other optics...

Yes, but we've been over it. While they still are in the same category, they are not the same actual item and they can differ in many ways, not only in structure but in function.

[ginn]

I don't think you get my point...

[Smegma]

I don't think you get my point...

I think I do, I also think you have a horrendous way of explaining it as its not even getting to the heart of the matter, particularly in your use of the concept of self. Most people who've explored these ideas tend to come to the realization that the intended truth is found through some loss of self, which I prefer as I feel it explains it better. In that, there is no true self in reality, not that "you" don't exist.

[ginn]

"some loss of self", it's a loss of all 'self'.
You are an 'observer', it doesn't exist, and yet exist trough your bodys life.

I find this 'observer' thing quite interesting and hard to figure out.
Does everything have an 'observer'? where goes the limit?

It also raises the question what consciousness really is, is it built by something?
I haven't gotten so far, because I kind of abandoned the idea when I figured that we don't exist.

[Smegma]

"some loss of self", it's a loss of all 'self'.
You are an 'observer', it doesn't exist, and yet exist trough your bodys life.

the some was referring to an instances of losing self, of which all is gone.

I find this 'observer' thing quite interesting and hard to figure out.

If you still think there's an observer, you haven't quite lost it.

Does everything have an 'observer'? where goes the limit?

Yes, and if it has been lost, this answer should be found.


Obscure enough for you?

[ginn]

well, If I was purely a brain, I wouldn't have a sub-conscious, so there must be something that's separating the consciousness.