Author Topic: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?  (Read 21867 times)

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Offline CheeSeMan.

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[Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« on: August 01, 2013, 01:27:05 pm »
So I just want to know what everyone feels about the overall damage weapons are dealing in 1.6.4. I feel that everything is killing way too fast now and that this does not have a positive effect on game play at all, seeing as we are spending way more time re spawning. For example, in competitive 3v3 CTF in most matches during 1.6.3 35-40 would probably be the average kill count of a player with players that focus a lot on aim reaching 60+. Now the average seems to have jumped up to 50+, with some players even achieving 70+ kills per map. This to me at least seems like a pretty huge jump, some players are mentioning that they feel like they are playing realistic mode and I can't help but agree with that.

What I feel has not been taken into account correctly in this weapon mod is the following: Bullet registering hits have been significantly improved due to the amount of netcode fixes that the dev team have been able to provide, which is great news. Also bullets now register more correctly the damage on the different hitpoints in terms of shooting at the head/torso/legs. Also the whole game is a lot smoother now which is allowing players to run faster and give their bullets higher velocity when they shoot, not to mention the focus on training faster movement abilities(like prone cancels, slides, cannonballs etc..) this all has an effect of making the damage dealt by all the weapons much higher.

This is why I really can not understand that a lot of guns were added damage, take the mp5 for example it was just added +1 damage which does not sound like a lot at all but if now we say 30% more bullets are registering correctly then this has a much greater knock on effect. I think we can apply this to most of the weapon changes... however, I do not think we can just stick with the 1.6.3 weapon mod either due to the fixes the dev team have made. I believe damage should be reduced, what about you guys?

Well really I want to know how other people feel about this, please don't just mention that we should have been testing this throughout the release candidates and betas(of course we should have) but nobody did! This is to discuss what you feel about the current weapon mod and to offer some solutions if you can!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 01:39:20 pm by CheeSeMan. »
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Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 02:22:49 pm »
Yeah, this is a better thread... I couldn't delete mine.

I was already not too happy about how high the damage was in 1.6.3, but it was mostly fine (except for ruger and spas), I doubt it had been possible to really put it any lower without going overboard, since the current variables work on such low values.
Now there is supposedly more regs (which I'm not really sure is true, seemed to be true in rc2 though, now there are a lot of eats again, especially boost eats) and higher damage, the wm went the opposite direction of where it should have. There's also another concern, the weapon push, this has been far too high for a long time, and never got changed.

I think what the wm needs is less bullet push and less damage.

Another thing is the inheritance is not quite what it should be, it's 50% (i.e. the least intuitive) instead of 0% or 100%, I think it should be changed to 100% (this may need some getting used to, but it wouldn't take many days for most players to adjust to).

Offline 14th_account

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 03:11:30 pm »
I usually lurk and let these types of threads collect opinions for a few days before I respond. But screw it, I feel like mixing it up.

I did notice that for the ~25th time in a row, the new version's weapon balance does indeed not seem to achieve perfection. The WM changes were relatively minor though compared to some previous versions, at least in terms of damage output. It would be fun to imagine that zakath, Fry Fry and I made so many improvements to the netcode that the classic gameplay which wasn't designed for it just couldn't cope.

Oh, and it seems that at least the #soldatladder and #soldat.gather servers weren't patched to 1.6.4 correctly (see bug #341, comment 3), making them send data to the players at a quite much lower rate. I know at least the #soldatladder servers were patched ~24 hours ago. So the networking should improve further compared to any previous games there.

Anyhoo... a 1.6.5 within a few weeks is a likely outcome, so there is time for some WM tweaks. But let's say the increased kill count is an actual trend and not just fluke. Okay... is this a bad thing though? Maybe you're just bored by spending so much time waiting for respawn? An idea then would be to lower the default spawn times that have remained the same since the first versions.

Elaborate and enlighten me as to why an increased kill count would be so bad. Does it actually bother you, or are you just being a curmudgeon stuck in your old ways?

Offline DutchFlame

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 03:53:31 pm »
Nothing is wrong with an increased kill count. Soldat is a fast paced game after all.

The current weapon mod is not too bad. It's just that a few weapons are standing out on others. (mostly because bullet registration is improved alot)
For example Steyr Aug and Desert Eagles.

And some that are currently well lets say has lost its touch after the latest version:

FN Minimi, Ruger

The minimi was already tweaked for having too much spread, but it seems it was not enough, Im sure this will get looked at for the next version.
As for ruger.. the weapon itself is fine except for that it now requires 4 shots at the feet to kill. (and I also believe because of the big scaling cursor issue people can't aim or something like that)

It might not be the thread for whining about why the weapon mod wasn't tested earlier in beta version, but it's still sad threads like these come up after the game is released. (I don't like some of the changes aswell, but I'm just dealing with it)




Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 03:58:33 pm »
There's less room for good play, since you die so quickly.
Lets just take Guardian as an example, as it's a relatively simple map.

While you are in the red angle you'll die, or at least can't really do anything. Once you're in the blue area, you're "safe", or have some time to act and make teamplays on.
The issue when you die fast is that there's no way you're going to make it to the blue area, unless it's completely clear. Thus decreasing the teamplay and making the game a lot more DM dependent.
With how it's now there's really no room for good plays, or "solo efforts", like clutch play... there's really just about good DM, which is imo the boring part of the game.

If there's less damage, there's more time to get to those "safe" areas, and there's more possibility to make teamplays and clutch plays. Basically DM skills also becomes less important, as you can make up for that in other areas of the game.
Previously you could win by having superior DM skills even if you have horrible teamplay, but you could also win even if you didn't have especially good DM skills, just as long as you were good on other aspects. Now there's less room for the other aspects, and honestly, an objective based game mode shouldn't be completely reliant on DM.

Nothing is wrong with an increased kill count. Soldat is a fast paced game after all.
The higher kill count slows down the game, soldat won't be as fast anymore with the current wm.

Does it actually bother you, or are you just being a curmudgeon stuck in your old ways?
I'm very open to changes, like the new knife, simply this new wm is going in the wrong direction.

Offline DutchFlame

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 04:27:27 pm »


Nothing is wrong with an increased kill count. Soldat is a fast paced game after all.
The higher kill count slows down the game, soldat won't be as fast anymore with the current wm.


Lol what, the faster someone dies the more action, instead of camping into your "save areas"

all you have to do if you don't think it's fast enough is to change your respawn time.

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 04:32:04 pm »
So you think realistic is faster than normal mode?
The game speed isn't determined by death/kill count, it's more about how much you can do in the game, how fast you have to make decisions and change up your play. The faster you die the more conservative you have to be, it's promoting camping rather than rushing.

Edit:
Lol what, the faster someone dies the more action, instead of camping into your "save areas"

all you have to do if you don't think it's fast enough is to change your respawn time.
Actually, why don't we just have a 0 delay brt with 1 fireinterval, 255 ammo and 1 reload time? That'd make the game fast as hell, especially if with a respawn time of 1 sec.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:36:38 pm by ginn »

Offline Bonecrusher

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 04:47:11 pm »
It also occured to me for instance DE are 2 shots for a  kill now which makes it easy really weird, cause all of a sudden you can see it being used all over the place .Try to provide a weapon config with decreased dmg output and we can run it on one of the publics I hostto see how players react and how it actually feels in game.

Im chill like that

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2013, 04:56:56 pm »

 [......]

 Moving away from digressions , modifying the current weapon balance is really redundant. I believe there's only one developer who is responsible for this , so it's strictly directed to him. On first sight , those seem to be the minor changes , but how significant.. Most of the weapons work fine. There is no need of improving each one of them with every new release. Small changes are always welcome , but there should be a reason for it , like ' this weapon is totally useless , it doesn't help at all , let's make it more usefull ' , or ' this weapon is far too strong ' . We can't change the weapon balance just because we got bored of it. That's not the way. The current demand is very important too. We have to consider people's expectations. Motto for today : Leave it when it works pretty well.

Barret and Deagles are fine now , tho. Barret : New changes make it harder to use, i get it cause it was too easy. I still believe , long reload and delay is the thing we should stick to. Same with deagles. But the rest of the weapons were really okay. No need to change them. Especially mini and hk. Mini is pain in the ass now , and adding a damage to already opped hk , was not a really wise move

I have not received any support back then. If it hadn't been for your laziness maybe we could have achieved something together..
Anyway , maybe we can do something now. Better late than never. That's all truth. Damage should be reduced. Players are right. The developer that is responsible for the current weapon balance should swallow the pride and fix it. I'm not talking here about bringing back the old mod (or maybe i am). Some of the weapons are fine , but the rest should be switched with the old balance. Hk , mini , steyr. The most significant weapons. It's really more like realistic now. I'm afraid that the tactic might not be that usefull now. It's unacceptable.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:27:37 pm by Petterkowski »


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Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2013, 05:36:51 pm »
Yes I believe the higher kill count is bad, like ginn has pointed out its making CTF too reliant on solid DM abilities and not leaving as much room for teamplay/tactics. And, I don't believe it makes the game faster Dutchflame its going to make a more camper friendly hover spray gamestyle which will slow it down(to survive longer players will need to out position the enemy which is done easier when camping.)

What makes matches gain a faster pace is more capping. For there to be more capping players need to be able to escape more often and currently like ginn's pointed out its much harder to do so. In realistic mode, players die way faster and therefore the cap limit is only 6 because there is less capping. I don't want to see normal mode become like that!

I think we need to get some "Alternative" weapon mods going and start testing some tweaks!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:42:16 pm by CheeSeMan. »
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Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2013, 08:30:38 pm »
I haven't played enough matches to form a proper opinion on the WM but I can see where people who find it too strong are coming. I agree with Cheese and ginn that being dead all the time isn't making the game faster, CTF is becoming even more DM heavy than it already is and it's caps that bring the pace into the game. Also like it's been said, it gets nearly impossible to make clutch plays all by yourself when there's no hope of surviving.

What came to my mind on publics was that stronger weapons take away skill from the game. The gap between new and experienced players is definitely smaller than it was cause kills are easier to get than before. I've always thought of Soldat as a hardcore game with an insanely high skill cap so seeing the more dominant players struggling with clearly less experienced players doesn't really fit into that image.

I mentioned this on irc but I'll say it again here: You shouldn't tell us to "live with it" because nobody complained earlier, that's just not how it works. Even though late for 1.6.4, the community's opinions are not even slightly less valid than they would have been during the RCs. People generally aren't very interested in betas, not even mentioning how badly the beta lost its momentum when it took more than half a year to get the final release out. I don't think there's much you can do to make the betas more appealing to the community. This is a big problem that, hopefully soon, the auto updater will address.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 08:59:45 pm by Dusty »

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2013, 09:32:45 pm »
I think it's smarter to consult to experienced players when it comes to wm, like inviting them as beta testers, rather than relying on input from the betas/rcs.

Offline Vos

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 02:31:03 am »
I think it's smarter to consult to experienced players when it comes to wm, like inviting them as beta testers, rather than relying on input from the betas/rcs.

Agreed


I dont disagree at all when the developers say: ''live with it''  ''should have tested'', I mean it's the only reason beta is here for, but it's indeed something that is just not working as intended. :(
But I guess we(the dev team mostly) just need to live with it, there is not really another good choice.
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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 07:58:44 am »
Guns like hk and steyr, maybe spas and deagles does indeed look a bit op.
You could say that in a more fast paced game (more overall demage) you have less need for many bullets in your clip, and more need for a gun that can kill fast.
I would like to see some demage decrease for 1.6.5.

Offline gor

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 10:13:08 am »
I completely agree with cheeseman,now the bullets are registering much better and the impact on killing speed of each weapon is huge.
In the past I barely saw 60 kills in competitive scene and nowadays in every map at least 1-2 players getting 60 kills(with others not being far behind).
My suggestion would be decreasing dmg back to 1.6.3 settings or even remaking the damage according to the new hit settings.
In the past you had to shoot 7 bullets in order to kill(4-5 bullets would register) but now 6 bullets are registering leading to much better kill ratio.

Offline Atomic

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 03:28:57 pm »
I agree with the OP and other players in this thread.  The damage increase has really hampered the game and made it so that even newbies can play as good as the pro players.  It's really not fair and I think the weapons need to be fixed.

In my opinion, we should switch back to the 1.4.2 version because in that version all the weapons were perfectly balanced.

Just my two cents.   :D

Offline Falcon`

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2013, 04:31:54 pm »
The damage increase has really hampered the game and made it so that even newbies can play as good as the pro players.
That is my friend a good thing. Killing newbie is a happy newbie, which means he'll most likely stick around, which means new fresh blood for us.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2013, 04:37:11 pm »
The damage increase has really hampered the game and made it so that even newbies can play as good as the pro players.
That is my friend a good thing. Killing newbie is a happy newbie, which means he'll most likely stick around, which means new fresh blood for us.

Yeah but the newbies shouldn't be able to play as good as the pro players because the pro players have been practicing their aim, movement, and other skills for years.  This game has become very messed up due to the fact that people that have never played this game can just come on and own the pros like it doesn't even matter.

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2013, 04:55:02 pm »
That is my friend a good thing. Killing newbie is a happy newbie, which means he'll most likely stick around, which means new fresh blood for us.
Except that all veterans will just quit, since there's no point in playing it anymore (as there's little to no skill involved atm). Also, a newb won't be playing vs a good player, very few of the good players ever play on publics.

Offline Crimson Goth

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2013, 05:18:23 pm »
I think it's smarter to consult to experienced players when it comes to wm, like inviting them as beta testers, rather than relying on input from the betas/rcs.

Agreed, perhaps sctfl winners?

Offline Geoffrey

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2013, 05:43:11 pm »
I did notice that for the ~25th time in a row, the new version's weapon balance does indeed not seem to achieve perfection.

Maybe that is a sign that the person that does it isn't very good at his job. Maybe it is, I don't know. Maybe he just needs more help.

Having more deaths in a game cannot really be solved by lowering the respawn time since that would mean you kill someone halfway across the map and you are guaranteed to meet them again before getting to the flag. It could get to a point where you kill them upon entering the base and have to kill them once or twice more when taking the flag and leaving. The current respawn times have worked for years and produced gameplay that has inspired some great matches and competitions.


To nail the WM you could try gathering together some top-level players (SCTFL admins/winners/top competitors, gather admins, trusted players from here who play regularly in pubs) and have them pretty much sit down over a weekend. Get control of a server or two and just play some CTF and some DM. After 5 or so rounds you all hop on IRC and suggest tweaks to the WM, those tweaks are then applied to the server and you repeat the process however many times on your Saturday. Then you all get some shut-eye and come back the next day to test the release candidates you concocted the previous day with a slightly fresher perspective and just whittle it down until you have something to propose. Perhaps invite players that are trying to start gathers to the server for an opportunity to hang with the cool cats and get some more perspectives.

Maybe you do something like this already but as far as I am aware it always more drawn out. Getting some players to dedicate themselves to an intensive session over a few days could be the trick.

Offline Poop

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2013, 09:20:32 pm »
I have 2 points to make:

Steyr is massively overused, I am noticing 4-6 steyr's every match in 3v3, probably needs a slight nerf relative to all other weapons before the next version comes out.

The higher killcount is actually making the game slower paced, not faster paced as some people seem to claim. Its very difficult now to rush and get a double kill/cap. In general getting caps has gotten much harder as you die so fucking quickly now, its impossible to actually get to the opponents flag alive (And when you do get to the flag, someone is always respawning because there are way more deaths). I don't think this is a good thing. I have agreed with increasing damage the past few versions but this version has made it overkill IMO (whether this is the weapon mod or some other change in the code), I think the WM should be adjusted to make weapons a bit weaker across the board.

Also this seems to make lag even more powerful, as the person who will have the highest chance of surviving the ridiculousness is someone who lags.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 09:22:34 pm by Poop »
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Offline Rakkety

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2013, 02:26:30 am »
I totally agree, styer was already kind of OP and one of the most over used weapons in the previous version. Now it is killing entirely too fast, I'm pretty sure it is the superior weapon on all maps and every route, its basically more useful than spas at close range because you can kill even faster with it and you have more range. It gets ridiculous at times, playing vs 3x styer spray you die so fucking fast, and its next to impossible to be the hero now because its just way to difficult to escape with flag. The current weapon mod would give a huge advantage to DM heavy players and unless you want cast hellsik and skipzor winning sctfl again something needs to be done.

On another note, I think you nerfed spas and FN mini way to much


The spas is good at close range but at mid to long range spas really sucks, I swear to god it has reg issues because many times I have hit EPIC weak enemies with spas pellets, I see blood flying off them but they take no damage. It seems as if ever if your pellets hit at long range no damage is being accounted for

And the mini... You messed up the spread so badly. Sure you have fifty bullets, but compared to the styer which is the far superior weapon now it is pretty bad. I mean.. It spreads so much that you miss probably more shots than you did in the previous version and mini wasn't even OP. Basically you nerfed a gun that didn't need a Nerf


HK and STYER are definitely OP, something needs to be done before the next sctfl is played because it really won't be enjoyable to play vs 3x lag and Aug spray. It will destroy gameplay, put a huge emphasis on DM skills and take away a lot of the teamplay that competition soldat has been based around

Offline vinteek

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2013, 02:36:00 am »
In my opinion, we should switch back to the 1.4.2 version because in that version all the weapons were perfectly balanced.

+1
1.4.2 was so far the best version for me if it comes to WM, it was well balanced, just bring it back and fix those eats from that period and it will be fine. I've been complaining about steyr since 1.5.1 WM... and now it's the same story.. Why do we have to be equal with "noobs" or guys who have just good aim?
Somehow in each version i've got a feeling that person in charge of WM is adjusting it to his own desires...

Offline Crimson Goth

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2013, 06:42:53 am »



To nail the WM you could try gathering together some top-level players (SCTFL admins/winners/top competitors, gather admins, trusted players from here who play regularly in pubs) and have them pretty much sit down over a weekend. Get control of a server or two and just play some CTF and some DM. After 5 or so rounds you all hop on IRC and suggest tweaks to the WM, those tweaks are then applied to the server and you repeat the process however many times on your Saturday. Then you all get some shut-eye and come back the next day to test the release candidates you concocted the previous day with a slightly fresher perspective and just whittle it down until you have something to propose. Perhaps invite players that are trying to start gathers to the server for an opportunity to hang with the cool cats and get some more perspectives.

This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter and would be a much more organized method of doing things.

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2013, 08:22:14 am »
The spas is good at close range but at mid to long range spas really sucks
As it should, spas was OP in the previous version.

Offline squiddy

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2013, 10:49:24 am »
Cheese and ginn have made excellent points, which I share.

Faster deaths means you can't use DEM CLIMB SKILLZ, which makes it hard for players who are better with motion and speed and worse with killing (and general Deathmatch skills) to cap and be actually useful for the team.

Not going to linger this anymore, I believe this thread has made its opinion. :)
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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 01:18:40 am »
After having played climb and hide n' seek for 3 years - almost perfecting my entire arsenal of movement and polybug knowledge - it'd be nice if those 3 arduous years of dedication had more than a 3 seconds of glory trade-off in CTF.

When people take time out of their lives to work hard, refine, revamp, and improve their skills in any game, they expect to see results. In my honest opinion, the new WM has no problem in terms of one weapon being inferior/superior to another, but the problem lies within the increased damage output (apparently due to higher hit registry) and killing speed. As a speedrunner myself, I can relate to what ginn says about flagcappers having almost no chance of survival when trying to make heroic plays in the new version of Soldat.

Don't mistake me, I'm not criticizing the work of the devs at all, I think that the amount of effort they put into improving the netcode and "playability" of Soldat greatly paid off; however, all good changes always brings a detrimental one along with it; the new WM is said detriment.

Here are my observations after a week of playing public servers in 1.6.4:
Cons:
-Getting triple/double kills with barrett is a commonplace event now (especially when camp-spawning maps like Division, Cobra, Equinox etc..)
-In contrast to the fast-paced rushing atmosphere of public CTF servers last version (1.6.3), 1.6.4 seems to be more camp oriented
-Due to high hit registry, getting to opposing team's flag is difficult, and escaping their base is nearly impossible .
-In the rare occurrences you do escape from their base, a sprayed stray bullet has the potential to kill you from across half the map.

Pros:
-The increased versatility of the saw has seemingly made it a more enticing secondary weapon choice; consequently, spawning is a lot easier with the increased saw range
-Decreased damage taken from self-boosts using m79 or nades
-Spas and minimi nerfed
-Nades in general

*In the previous version, a player would have a higher chance of eating bullets the faster s/he is going. Although this is not the case anymore, I think it can be balanced if the damage of a bullet would be decreased if travelling against gravity (vertically) or decreased over time. This would get rid of the majority of many bs rage-quit spray kills from half a map away.

I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement. Right now the former is around 70% while the latter being 30% (all rough estimates based off my opinion). It's just shameful and demotivational to all the players who have put in loads of work refining their movement to have it easily get shot to pieces (literally) by a noob who has decent aim.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2013, 11:15:53 am »
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Uhhh, No.

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Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 11:52:38 am »
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Uhhh, No.
Yes, it should. Team work, movements, smart play, map knowledge, should play a bigger role than 30%, aiming alone should not account for 70% of the game play.

Pros:
-Nades in general
Really I don't know, I think there are issues with the nades. I think there should be a timer of how soon a nade can explode, so that you can't just tap nade to kill off somebody close to you. The timer would start once you start holding the nade key, then after it reaches a certain time the nade can collide and explode on people.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 12:10:09 pm »
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Uhhh, No.
Yes, it should. Team work, movements, smart play, map knowledge, should play a bigger role than 30%, aiming alone should not account for 70% of the game play.

Pros:
-Nades in general
Really I don't know, I think there are issues with the nades. I think there should be a timer of how soon a nade can explode, so that you can't just tap nade to kill off somebody close to you. The timer would start once you start holding the nade key, then after it reaches a certain time the nade can collide and explode on people.
You're agreeing that movement alone should be worth 50% of the game play, yet you also stated Team work, smart play, and map knowledge should account for more then 30%?

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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2013, 12:30:34 pm »
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Uhhh, No.
When I said Soldat should be consisted of 50% movement and the other 50% accounts of every other aspect of Soldat, where did you find fault in that Adam?

There's a certain characteristic about the nature of Soldat and how it's made that sets it unique from any other 2d sidescrolling fps game -- the versatility of the movement is highly flexible and the amount of manipulation you have over your gostek is more than any game I've ever played. I can tell you from personal experience that having a decent aim with any weapon does not even compare to the work, practice, and repitition needed to become a decent runner on all the CTF maps.

I suggest to build upon the unique characteristics of Soldat -- movement and running -- as a way to make Soldat seem more enticing and to set Soldat apart as something "new", or unique, rather than it be any regular fps game where you just aim and shoot and movement doesn't really matter at all.

Nobody likes constantly being killed by campers and people who just hover-spray, but with the new WM, this is becoming quite the preference for most players. I'm only arguing that movement should not be over-looked as the devs make changes, as even the minor tweaks to weapons can affect the whole playing field for professional flagcappers.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2013, 01:55:04 pm »
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Uhhh, No.
When I said Soldat should be consisted of 50% movement and the other 50% accounts of every other aspect of Soldat, where did you find fault in that Adam?

There's a certain characteristic about the nature of Soldat and how it's made that sets it unique from any other 2d sidescrolling fps game -- the versatility of the movement is highly flexible and the amount of manipulation you have over your gostek is more than any game I've ever played. I can tell you from personal experience that having a decent aim with any weapon does not even compare to the work, practice, and repitition needed to become a decent runner on all the CTF maps.

I suggest to build upon the unique characteristics of Soldat -- movement and running -- as a way to make Soldat seem more enticing and to set Soldat apart as something "new", or unique, rather than it be any regular fps game where you just aim and shoot and movement doesn't really matter at all.

Nobody likes constantly being killed by campers and people who just hover-spray, but with the new WM, this is becoming quite the preference for most players. I'm only arguing that movement should not be over-looked as the devs make changes, as even the minor tweaks to weapons can affect the whole playing field for professional flagcappers.
First of all your original claim was that soldat should consist of 50% movement and 50% aim/weapon manipulation, not implying every other aspect of soldat... Also you're entitled to your own opinions on what is harder to learn in soldat and it's uniqueness whether it be movement or aim, just like I disagree on movement being harder or more unique then aiming.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 01:58:05 pm by Adam »

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Offline Ymies

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 04:00:39 am »
how do you define crap like 50% movement and 30% aim and the kind? soldat will always be a shooting game, it doesn't matter how many years you spend on honing your precious running skills, there will always be people who manage to do the same with the shooting side and most of the time running won't save you, because these individuals can, most of the time, move well enough too. why should shooting be worth any less?

but which is more versatile, focusing more on movement and less on aiming or the other way around? i don't think it matters because despite what you focus on your team still needs to be competitive balanced between shooting, movement and the use of brain for you to be able to cope

« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:03:34 am by Ymies »

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2013, 10:50:08 am »
how do you define crap like 50% movement and 30% aim and the kind? soldat will always be a shooting game, it doesn't matter how many years you spend on honing your precious running skills, there will always be people who manage to do the same with the shooting side and most of the time running won't save you, because these individuals can, most of the time, move well enough too. why should shooting be worth any less?

but which is more versatile, focusing more on movement and less on aiming or the other way around? i don't think it matters because despite what you focus on your team still needs to be competitive balanced between shooting, movement and the use of brain for you to be able to cope
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Offline paintZoom

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2013, 07:59:26 pm »
running skills definitely has less room on this version.. weapons kill so fast that u cant really do anything cool with the five seconds u are alive xd
so the overall damage is way too high.. devs could put the damage values down OR they could invent something new like
give the soldiers more "life" and add something to balance the new power of the guns like add higher speeds to the movements.. i think that would do the "trick" because this way a "N00b" can still kill "PR0s" if they dont know how to move.. so this will likely force people to move more to die less.. wich could result in more fast paced feel for the game
I play mostly on public ctf servers (almost entirely) and the game has lost some appealing to me.. due to the fact that now only DM skills matters and is just spray N Kill..
i really appreciate all the work the devs are putting in to fixing things but they should put something really "New" to game even if is something small like a movement feature or something..
(add fastfall like in super smash bros 64 :D xd)

Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 04:53:50 am »
you guys can stop discussing this now. we allready have 1.6.5 with lower demages

Changes from 1.6.4 -> 1.6.5
Deagles      dmg -2
HK MP5       dmg -2
Ak           dmg -1
Steyr        dmg -2
Spas         dmg -1
Barrett      moveacc +1

[Edit]
Having said I feel the wm is more balanced now, I didn't mean to interrupt the discussion. Demage is probbably still too high for a good gameplay. 1 or 2 reduction doesn't account for much really.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:19:07 pm by homerofgods »

Offline nouefexe

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2013, 03:13:25 pm »
yeah damage its still too high.. IMO you should try to replicate 1.6.3 WM with this new game engine (??) and restart the balacing from there!

Offline squiddy

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2013, 08:18:37 pm »
It's not a new game engine, lol.

I think the current WM works pretty well, although I would still like to see the Barrett with a larger startup/fire interval time. And the Minigun still looks so nasty.
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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 12:34:18 am »
how do you define crap like 50% movement and 30% aim and the kind? soldat will always be a shooting game

I have never defined Soldat as 30% aim so please don't accuse me of fallacies such as mentioned; however, I do agree with you that Soldat is an FPS game (a game where the main purpose focuses on shooting), but if you took any time to read my earlier post that you so condescendingly tried to refute, you would see that in no part of my post do I ever mention that Soldat is a game focused on movement.
I might as well state my point again:
In every single category of all the games in this world, Soldat would belong in the 2D Sidescrolling FPS section, so the main purpose in this game is, indeed, to shoot; HOWEVER, Soldat, in nature, is more than a game based on shooting; the potential Soldat has as an FPS game reaches far beyond a typical point-click game (i.e. COD, CS, Halo etc...) simply because of the versatility of how your gostek can be manipulated. In contrast to the simple gameplay and graphics of this game, the movement complexity Soldat has - as an FPS - IMMENSELY surpasses that of any other FPS that I know. The only few games that I know of that could begin to compare to Soldat's labyrinthine enigma of movement are S4 League and GunZ.

it doesn't matter how many years you spend on honing your precious running skills, there will always be people who manage to do the same with the shooting side and most of the time running won't save you, because these individuals can, most of the time, move well enough too. why should shooting be worth any less?
You seem to have an unhealthy tendency of making false accusations. If you're going to decry my post (that I embarrassingly spent a good 10-15 minutes on) in a patronizing tone, it would be greatly appreciated if you thoroughly understood the point I was making in my post and got your facts straight. Never did I once mention or even imply that shooting should be worth less than movement. I don't think shooting should be worth any less at all. All I'm simply saying is that, since Soldat is an FPS shooter that has a unique characteristic based on complex movement (something that makes this game stand out before all the other FPS shooters), movement should be more important and have a larger impact in all the gamemodes than it currently is.

but which is more versatile, focusing more on movement and less on aiming or the other way around? i don't think it matters because despite what you focus on your team still needs to be competitive balanced between shooting, movement and the use of brain for you to be able to cope
Ideally, you should focus on movement and aiming equally in order to become a hybrid player who can do it all: cap, kill, defend, attack, rush, basically the whole package. Imagine how much more competitive and motivating it would be to play if the competitive scene or even pubs were filled with players like this. I'm just stressing movement more because it's a shame seeing newcomers start the game off and live their whole Soldat career as campers when there is literally a whole other universe in movement to utilize that could really give the player a motivation to play more and invite his/her friends to play. In all honesty, if Soldat didn't have its unique arsenal of movements, I can guarantee you the game would be less popular than it already is. Soldat is a two-dimensional game in appearance, but the beauty of Soldat is that you progressively start to see more and more dimensions as you play. Sometimes I even play Soldat in my 4D glasses.

Look, I'm not trying to turn this thread into a "movement vs. aiming/shooting" debate. I'm trying to find an equilibrium between the two which would make this game more addictive and fun that it already is. I'm not trying to prove that movement is more important than aiming, and I hope you're not trying to do the opposite; all I'm trying to do by emphasizing movement and its impact on this game - as a SOLDAT player, not a RUNNER - is to try and offer a new perspective for people to look at, and maybe accept and build upon.

Thank you if you took the time to read this; if not, please don't reply to this post.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 09:21:07 am by iAmBullet »

Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2013, 07:23:13 am »
I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2013, 10:58:08 am »
I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.
seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 12:27:02 pm »
I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.
seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...
No We are not the only ones, but you must be the only one stupid enough to say that after reading this topic. Why don't you make a point instead of trying to bash people.
Anyway, what will happen to Geoffrey's idea? And 14th_account are you convinced that the overall demage is a bit too high or do you need more reasons to decrease it?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 12:32:41 pm by homerofgods »

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 02:01:07 pm »
I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.
seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...
No We are not the only ones, but you must be the only one stupid enough to say that after reading this topic. Why don't you make a point instead of trying to bash people.
Anyway, what will happen to Geoffrey's idea? And 14th_account are you convinced that the overall demage is a bit too high or do you need more reasons to decrease it?
Yeah, I did make a point. Don't play gathers if the level of play is too far high level for you... it's not a bash it's a statement.

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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 02:28:34 pm »
Let me try to rephrase what homer is trying to say to make it easier for you to understand, Adam.
Homer is a good player, he can handle the level of play that the gathers offer without a doubt. All he is saying is that when he tries to use advanced movement techniques, he gets killed so easily because the damage output is far too high.
The only way people can survive in this version is by essentially either camping or going at a slow pace.

Why is everybody so opposed and reluctant to suggestions that would increase the speed of gameplay?
Are the players who have played this game a long time too stubborn to accept a change they are not prepared for?
What are the downsides to an increased game pace?
Is Soldat always going to be a game mainly dominated by campers?

On a side note:
Threads proposing questions similar to that of this one is always approached with a set in stone mindset, not an open mindset. Why?
These threads are not supposed to an argument, but a debate; no need to talk condescendingly or insult other peoples opinions. Otherwise, suggestions like this are never going to go anywhere.

Offline 14th_account

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2013, 02:43:42 pm »
Adam, you're attacking him rather than addressing the arguments. You can't possibly expect to be taken seriously with these debate tactics.


homerofgods, it's only been a handful of days since the release of 1.6.5. I've barely gotten to play the version myself. I haven't formed an opinion on the current level of weapon damage.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2013, 02:56:13 pm »
Let me try to rephrase what homer is trying to say to make it easier for you to understand, Adam.
Homer is a good player, he can handle the level of play that the gathers offer without a doubt. All he is saying is that when he tries to use advanced movement techniques, he gets killed so easily because the damage output is far too high.
The only way people can survive in this version is by essentially either camping or going at a slow pace.

Why is everybody so opposed and reluctant to suggestions that would increase the speed of gameplay?
Are the players who have played this game a long time too stubborn to accept a change they are not prepared for?
What are the downsides to an increased game pace?
Is Soldat always going to be a game mainly dominated by campers?

On a side note:
Threads proposing questions similar to that of this one is always approached with a set in stone mindset, not an open mindset. Why?
These threads are not supposed to an argument, but a debate; no need to talk condescendingly or insult other peoples opinions. Otherwise, suggestions like this are never going to go anywhere.
you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2013, 04:34:08 pm »
you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

I'm basing my assumptions based on every mode I've played in Soldat, in every level (gathers, pubs, dm, tm), but enough with assumptions, let's get down to some facts.

Adam, name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive style of play that have won SCTFL.

Every single team for the past 22 SCTFL's have won mainly off of which team has the players who can essentially camp and defend best.
Let's use the past SCTFL for example: FOST vs i9. (i9 won)
i9 has arguably the player with the best aim in Soldat, Ayrin aka Cast
Yet, if you watch him play here (starts at 15:46), you can see that he rarely makes aggressive plays attacking the enemy base. Out of their whole team composition, I'd say that the most aggressive is Lesonen, and the in-between guy is hellsik; however, all of them rarely use any advanced movement techniques.

Nowadays, it doesn't make a difference whether a player has good or bad movement, because movement has a miniscule effect on the outcome of CTF anyways. A team can literally have all walkers who don't know how to flip and still win, because Soldat is a "good defense beats good offense" kind of game. This has been an on-going trend for all the past SCTFL's and will probably continue to be, and to be frankly honest, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's a waste for a game like Soldat - with its incredible arsenal of movements - to acquiesce to the stereotypical fps or sidescrolling shooter games where the main dominance of gameplay lies in camping. Soldat can ascend to a greater level, reaching further beyond a regular sidescrolling shooter if the full potential of this game is utilized - by that, I mean if skillful movement had a bigger and more rewarding outcome in competitive scenes like SCTFL.

Perhaps, giving rushers a higher chance of surviving can help Soldat to achieve this potential. In my opinion, the most fair and logical way to do this is by lowering the output of damage from all the weapons (seriously, multi-kills with barrett?).


Also, it would be really appreciated and contributing to the debate if you (Adam) provided some more concrete examples and evidence to support your posts. It's clear what side you're supporting, but honestly your posts thus far have all been irrational and are poor in explanation as well. If you don't have the time to write the post, either take some time to write a well-explained post or don't voice your opinion at all.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2013, 04:40:44 pm »
you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

I'm basing my assumptions based on every mode I've played in Soldat, in every level (gathers, pubs, dm, tm), but enough with assumptions, let's get down to some facts.

Adam, name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive style of play that have won SCTFL.

Every single team for the past 22 SCTFL's have won mainly off of which team has the players who can essentially camp and defend best.
Let's use the past SCTFL for example: FOST vs i9. (i9 won)
i9 has arguably the player with the best aim in Soldat, Ayrin aka Cast
Yet, if you watch him play here (starts at 15:46), you can see that he rarely makes aggressive plays attacking the enemy base. Out of their whole team composition, I'd say that the most aggressive is Lesonen, and the in-between guy is hellsik; however, all of them rarely use any advanced movement techniques.

Nowadays, it doesn't make a difference whether a player has good or bad movement, because movement has a miniscule effect on the outcome of CTF anyways. A team can literally have all walkers who don't know how to flip and still win, because Soldat is a "good defense beats good offense" kind of game. This has been an on-going trend for all the past SCTFL's and will probably continue to be, and to be frankly honest, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's a waste for a game like Soldat - with its incredible arsenal of movements - to acquiesce to the stereotypical fps or sidescrolling shooter games where the main dominance of gameplay lies in camping. Soldat can ascend to a greater level, reaching further beyond a regular sidescrolling shooter if the full potential of this game is utilized - by that, I mean if skillful movement had a bigger and more rewarding outcome in competitive scenes like SCTFL.

Perhaps, giving rushers a higher chance of surviving can help Soldat to achieve this potential. In my opinion, the most fair and logical way to do this is by lowering the output of damage from all the weapons (seriously, multi-kills with barrett?).


Also, it would be really appreciated and contributing to the debate if you (Adam) provided some more concrete examples and evidence to support your posts. It's clear what side you're supporting, but honestly your posts thus far have all been irrational and are poor in explanation as well. If you don't have the time to write the post, either take some time to write a well-explained post or don't voice your opinion at all.
Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals... You wanted me to name a sctfl clan that won with rushing? Invictus and EF(the two at the top of my brain) oh and  prkl
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:56:45 pm by Adam »

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Offline iAmBullet

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2013, 04:58:46 pm »
Ignorance is bliss.

So only 10% of teams who have made it to finals have won. I did make a mistake by asking you to name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive stle of play that have won SCTFL. That's stupid on my part, but the point is obvious being the gargantuan majority of SCTFL teams who win SCTFL are all camp-oriented.

Yet again, you only addressed 20% of my post while ignoring every other point I made. I always try my best to give you thorough explanations addressing your whole posts, but you don't have the ounce of respect to do the same for me?
If you seriously didn't read my whole post before posting then I take offense to that, whether you meant to offend me or not.

Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals
So what if it's finals? Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping? Why should a team stop attacking and being aggressive just because they reach the finals?

I appreciate the examples you gave me that disproved my initial argument, but my point still remains valid - SCTFL (and Soldat in general) is a scene where campers dominate the field.

Adam, I don't want an argument to develop out of this debate. Please don't take my posts directed at you in an offensive way. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective as I'm sure you're trying to reciprocate to me as well.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 05:03:16 pm by iAmBullet »

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2013, 05:13:45 pm »
Ignorance is bliss.

So only 10% of teams who have made it to finals have won. I did make a mistake by asking you to name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive stle of play that have won SCTFL. That's stupid on my part, but the point is obvious being the gargantuan majority of SCTFL teams who win SCTFL are all camp-oriented.

Yet again, you only addressed 20% of my post while ignoring every other point I made. I always try my best to give you thorough explanations addressing your whole posts, but you don't have the ounce of respect to do the same for me?
If you seriously didn't read my whole post before posting then I take offense to that, whether you meant to offend me or not.

Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals
So what if it's finals? Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping? Why should a team stop attacking and being aggressive just because they reach the finals?

I appreciate the examples you gave me that disproved my initial argument, but my point still remains valid - SCTFL (and Soldat in general) is a scene where campers dominate the field.

Adam, I don't want an argument to develop out of this debate. Please don't take my posts directed at you in an offensive way. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective as I'm sure you're trying to reciprocate to me as well.
lmao "Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping?" it's common sense if the other team is rushing you defend and do the opposite when you're rushing they defend. It's funny you keep saying campers dominate the field when all caps come from rushing, also why should I show respect to a simple-minded fool who claims you can only win by camping? Please tell me a clan that got to playoff by just standing in base with a barrett on full zoom.

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2013, 06:20:16 pm »
So does anyone have some real suggesions for 14th_account to consider when he come around to play some?
I'm suggesting longer fire-interval for steyr to balance it out. Along with the overall demage decrease ofc.
I might like soccom as it is. It's cool to be able to shoot as fast as you can click so if you lower demage you could lower fire-intervals
Maybe you could further differate between short range (HK and steyr) and long range (AK and minimi) by giving the long ranged weapons less demage, more accuracy and speed, while short ranged weapons get more demage, less speed and less accuracy. Good idea?
Perhaps give the barret some more recoil so that you can't run unaffected while shooting. Shooting would instead halt your momentum a bit. Just an idea.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:45:50 pm by homerofgods »

Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2013, 05:52:31 pm »
My biggest concerns so far:

- AK and the Minimi are too inaccurate. They are both supposed to be longer range than the Steyr which currently beats both of the guns on any range.
- Barrett is binked too easily by semis. Pubbing I feel like the Spas' stray pellets cause more bink than a faceful of spray.
- Ruger is inferior to DEs as both are mostly 3-hit-kill but the latter shoots faster and has more shots. Ruger seems to suffer from eats more than DEs.
- Deagles are slightly OP, can't say for sure cause I suck with them but maybe increase the fire interval or reduce the speed instead of damage. The ability to modify the spread of the two bullets would be a blast.
- Steyr still too dominant, not necessarily too powerful anymore but AK and Minimi are too weak in comparison.
- I have never liked the LAW's delay. Every time it seems like everyone using it has no-delay hack because of lag/animation issues. I don't think removing it would make it OP and people would still prefer the knife.
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:50:14 pm by Dusty »

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2013, 06:23:40 pm »
My biggest concerns so far:

- AK and the Minimi are too inaccurate. They are both supposed to be longer range than the Steyr which is currently beats both of the guns on any range.
- Barrett is binked too easily by semis. Pubbing I feel like the Spas' stray pellets cause more bink than a faceful of spray.
- Ruger is inferior to DEs as both are mostly 3-hit-kill but the latter shoots faster and has more shots. Ruger seems to suffer from eats more than DEs.
- Deagles are slightly OP, can't say for sure cause I suck with them but maybe increase the fire interval or reduce the speed instead of damage. The ability to modify the spread of the two bullets would be a blast.
- Steyr still too dominant, not necessarily too powerful anymore but AK and Minimi are too weak in comparison.
- I have never liked the LAW's delay. Every time it seems like everyone using it has no-delay hack because of lag/animation issues. I don't think removing it would make it OP and people would still prefer the knife.
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
Soccom should also be buffed

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2013, 02:06:21 am »
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
What you discribe might also be due to lagg, the bullets doesn't actually hit. I'm a spas user and I think it's fine. Spas is good on specific maps as for example ctf_Guardian.
Other then that I agree with you

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2013, 07:52:06 am »
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
What you discribe might also be due to lagg, the bullets doesn't actually hit. I'm a spas user and I think it's fine. Spas is good on specific maps as for example ctf_Guardian.
Other then that I agree with you
There's really no reason to pick spas instead of DE... or any weapon other than DE really, except maybe steyr. Put some fucking effort into the wm before you change things up -_-

Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2013, 08:23:46 pm »
Earlier I though my Ruger aim is just off, after checking I see it was because of the added movacc. If it must be nerfed I'd suggest more a longer reload or fire interval. MovementAcc in general doesn't fit my idea of "fast paced shooter action game" because even that one notch nearly forces you to stay still to be effective with the weapon.

It was a top tier 1v1 DM weapon and also probs my favourite yeah, but imo not overused nor in need of a nerf.

Offline nosejj

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2013, 02:32:58 pm »
Barret is way too powerful, multi kill? seriously? lol

Offline ginn

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2013, 06:32:34 pm »
Barret is way too powerful, multi kill? seriously? lol
It has no accuracy now though, slight movement makes the shot go in a random direction.

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2013, 08:13:22 pm »
this is weapon mod is really horrid compared to 1.6.4. I'd rather have a op spaz that requires some sort of skill then a 2-shot-rapid-killing DE , steyr that kills very fast and accurately, and a rett that is tremendously easy while the rest of the weapons are rendered useless (except for minimi). I'm starting to question why anyone would think of adding moveacc to ruger when autos are able to worm and not have their aim effected, also the eats from this version seems to have increased quite a lot compared to 1.6.4(ask anyone) or maybe it's just extremely bad luck.

horrid grammar like always  [retard]

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2013, 04:33:45 pm »
14th_account since nobody wants to gather some sctfl proes in a server, I spent some time trying to make the weapon mode a bit better. I'm guessing most people in this thread would approve of theese changes:

[Desert Eagles]
Damage=184 --> Damage=176
FireInterval=22 --> FireInterval=25

[HK MP5]
Damage=102 --> Damage=96

[Ak-74]
Damage=104 --> Damage=98

[Steyr AUG]
Damage=73 --> Damage=67

[FN Minimi]
Damage=86 --> Damage=80
MovementAcc=2 --> MovementAcc=1

Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2013, 04:58:29 pm »
nobody wants to gather some sctfl proes in a server

Just set up a gather server or two with an adjusted WM and you have it. There will eventually be discussion on the channel and in-game. Now that SCTFL is about to start, creating a topic there about the issue and experiences of people who have tried out the said servers would work fine too.

Offline squiddy

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2013, 04:59:11 pm »
Ussocom needs nerfing as well. It's too fast and dealing too much damage.
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Offline Izzy Rose (PL)

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2013, 05:09:46 pm »
Ussocom needs nerfing as well. It's too fast and dealing too much damage.

USSOCOM punishment mode = 1

do you wanna turn it off? :< It's so fun, when you run around and pwn all these barretards or ruger noobz with Socom :D
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Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2013, 07:19:23 pm »
14th_account since nobody wants to gather some sctfl proes in a server, I spent some time trying to make the weapon mode a bit better. I'm guessing most people in this thread would approve of theese changes:

[Desert Eagles]
Damage=184 --> Damage=176
FireInterval=22 --> FireInterval=25

[HK MP5]
Damage=102 --> Damage=96

[Ak-74]
Damage=104 --> Damage=98

[Steyr AUG]
Damage=73 --> Damage=67

[FN Minimi]
Damage=86 --> Damage=80
MovementAcc=2 --> MovementAcc=1
why are you lowering the dmg for Ak and hk? also you should take away moveacc from ruger since autos now have the ability to worm and not be affected by moveacc or just increase the dmg and leave the moveacc

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2013, 07:44:09 pm »
First of all I wanted to do as little as possible, and rather change it even more for the next release/beta. I'd be happy to do more, but theese seamed to be the changes most people would agree on right now.

I wanted to decrease general demage so I gave a -8 decrease on the sprayer guns because their bullets are all over the place.
Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.
It wouldn't matter much if I reduced demage on barret or M79 so I just left them alone for now. (I didn't want to do too much)
I could have done some demage reduction on spas aswell, but ruger was allready a bit weaker then the other guns so I didn't tutch it.
I decided to give a little better accuracy to minimi because it's supposed to be a long ranged gun, right now it feels like it has worse accuracy than hk and steyr.

If you get some sctfl proes in a server it would great, but if you don't I'm suggesting these changes to ensure some demage reduction.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:46:57 pm by homerofgods »

Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2013, 08:00:44 pm »
Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.
I don't get the point of this. Ruger is nowhere near getting guaranteed two hit kills, and with less bullets and slower fire interval it's inferior to Deagles.

Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2013, 08:45:59 pm »
Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.
I don't get the point of this. Ruger is nowhere near getting guaranteed two hit kills, and with less bullets and slower fire interval it's inferior to Deagles.
Wich is why I want to nerf DE...

Offline Izzy Rose (PL)

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2013, 06:31:52 am »
First of all I wanted to do as little as possible, and rather change it even more for the next release/beta. I'd be happy to do more, but theese seamed to be the changes most people would agree on right now.

I wanted to decrease general demage so I gave a -8 decrease on the sprayer guns because their bullets are all over the place.
Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.
It wouldn't matter much if I reduced demage on barret or M79 so I just left them alone for now. (I didn't want to do too much)
I could have done some demage reduction on spas aswell, but ruger was allready a bit weaker then the other guns so I didn't tutch it.
I decided to give a little better accuracy to minimi because it's supposed to be a long ranged gun, right now it feels like it has worse accuracy than hk and steyr.

If you get some sctfl proes in a server it would great, but if you don't I'm suggesting these changes to ensure some demage reduction.

Very good strategy. I'm on.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2013, 06:41:01 am »
Wich is why I want to nerf DE...

I meant what's the point of having Deagles to "get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky." Deagles shouldn't be able to kill in two shots in any situation.

Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2013, 09:48:22 am »
Wich is why I want to nerf DE...

I meant what's the point of having Deagles to "get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky." Deagles shouldn't be able to kill in two shots in any situation.
I guess I was thinking that it would encourage deagle users to try to aim well, it would be funny for them to sometimes hit a perfect two shots. But although it's still possible I made it so that it's very difficult, it would't happen often. If I lower damage by 1 more it would be impossible, we could do a poll on it and see what people want.
Ruger has way more chance of getting a kill on 2 shots. I tested it.

Listen..
If I was in charge of the weapon balance I would decreace movement accuracy of ruger. I would lower the bullet spread on HK and instead give it more interval, then balance it out with demage.
I would give both minimi and ak more interval, and instead more demage/accuracy.
I would give soccom close to 0 fireinterval so you would be able to shoot as fast as humanly possible, but lower damage.
I would perhaps nerf barret a bit, but I like to be able to doubblekill sometimes.
I am quite confident I would make a better minigun aswell

Actually I might upload my ideal weapon balance later, but for now I just wanted to suggest the most important changes.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 09:57:59 am by homerofgods »

Offline Adam

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2013, 02:08:31 pm »
Wich is why I want to nerf DE...

I meant what's the point of having Deagles to "get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky." Deagles shouldn't be able to kill in two shots in any situation.
I guess I was thinking that it would encourage deagle users to try to aim well, it would be funny for them to sometimes hit a perfect two shots. But although it's still possible I made it so that it's very difficult, it would't happen often. If I lower damage by 1 more it would be impossible, we could do a poll on it and see what people want.
Ruger has way more chance of getting a kill on 2 shots. I tested it.

Listen..
If I was in charge of the weapon balance I would decreace movement accuracy of ruger. I would lower the bullet spread on HK and instead give it more interval, then balance it out with demage.
I would give both minimi and ak more interval, and instead more demage/accuracy.
I would give soccom close to 0 fireinterval so you would be able to shoot as fast as humanly possible, but lower damage.
I would perhaps nerf barret a bit, but I like to be able to doubblekill sometimes.
I am quite confident I would make a better minigun aswell

Actually I might upload my ideal weapon balance later, but for now I just wanted to suggest the most important changes.
soccom should have a faster weapon switch time then the rest of the secondaries since it's not a one-hit or maybe add recoil to the gun along  with high dmg and less bullets idk

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: [Normal] Overall damage is too high?
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2013, 05:30:18 pm »
I spent the whole day making a suggestion for new weapon mode:
http://www.sctfl.net/forums/index.php?topic=45992.15

From the feedback I got in the server and on the sctfl forums I'm going to make a new suggestion to 14th_account where I change even less that I thought was necessary.

I think this is what I have landed on:

// Changes from 1.6.6b1 -> 1.6.6b2
// Deagles      dmg -4  fireinterval +1
// HK MP5       dmg -2
// Ak           dmg -2
// Steyr        dmg -2
// Barrett      dmg -45  moveacc -1  bink -20
// Minimi      dmg -2  moveacc -1
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 06:06:35 pm by homerofgods »