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Nothing is wrong with an increased kill count. Soldat is a fast paced game after all.
Does it actually bother you, or are you just being a curmudgeon stuck in your old ways?
Quote from: DutchFlame on August 01, 2013, 03:53:31 pmNothing is wrong with an increased kill count. Soldat is a fast paced game after all.The higher kill count slows down the game, soldat won't be as fast anymore with the current wm.
Lol what, the faster someone dies the more action, instead of camping into your "save areas"all you have to do if you don't think it's fast enough is to change your respawn time.
[......] Moving away from digressions , modifying the current weapon balance is really redundant. I believe there's only one developer who is responsible for this , so it's strictly directed to him. On first sight , those seem to be the minor changes , but how significant.. Most of the weapons work fine. There is no need of improving each one of them with every new release. Small changes are always welcome , but there should be a reason for it , like ' this weapon is totally useless , it doesn't help at all , let's make it more usefull ' , or ' this weapon is far too strong ' . We can't change the weapon balance just because we got bored of it. That's not the way. The current demand is very important too. We have to consider people's expectations. Motto for today : Leave it when it works pretty well.Barret and Deagles are fine now , tho. Barret : New changes make it harder to use, i get it cause it was too easy. I still believe , long reload and delay is the thing we should stick to. Same with deagles. But the rest of the weapons were really okay. No need to change them. Especially mini and hk. Mini is pain in the ass now , and adding a damage to already opped hk , was not a really wise move
I think it's smarter to consult to experienced players when it comes to wm, like inviting them as beta testers, rather than relying on input from the betas/rcs.
The damage increase has really hampered the game and made it so that even newbies can play as good as the pro players.
Quote from: Atomic on August 02, 2013, 03:28:57 pmThe damage increase has really hampered the game and made it so that even newbies can play as good as the pro players.That is my friend a good thing. Killing newbie is a happy newbie, which means he'll most likely stick around, which means new fresh blood for us.
That is my friend a good thing. Killing newbie is a happy newbie, which means he'll most likely stick around, which means new fresh blood for us.
I did notice that for the ~25th time in a row, the new version's weapon balance does indeed not seem to achieve perfection.
In my opinion, we should switch back to the 1.4.2 version because in that version all the weapons were perfectly balanced.
To nail the WM you could try gathering together some top-level players (SCTFL admins/winners/top competitors, gather admins, trusted players from here who play regularly in pubs) and have them pretty much sit down over a weekend. Get control of a server or two and just play some CTF and some DM. After 5 or so rounds you all hop on IRC and suggest tweaks to the WM, those tweaks are then applied to the server and you repeat the process however many times on your Saturday. Then you all get some shut-eye and come back the next day to test the release candidates you concocted the previous day with a slightly fresher perspective and just whittle it down until you have something to propose. Perhaps invite players that are trying to start gathers to the server for an opportunity to hang with the cool cats and get some more perspectives.
The spas is good at close range but at mid to long range spas really sucks
I'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.
Quote from: iAmBullet on August 04, 2013, 01:18:40 amI'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.Uhhh, No.
Pros:-Nades in general
Quote from: Adam on August 04, 2013, 11:15:53 amQuote from: iAmBullet on August 04, 2013, 01:18:40 amI'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.Uhhh, No.Yes, it should. Team work, movements, smart play, map knowledge, should play a bigger role than 30%, aiming alone should not account for 70% of the game play.Quote from: iAmBullet on August 04, 2013, 01:18:40 amPros:-Nades in generalReally I don't know, I think there are issues with the nades. I think there should be a timer of how soon a nade can explode, so that you can't just tap nade to kill off somebody close to you. The timer would start once you start holding the nade key, then after it reaches a certain time the nade can collide and explode on people.
Quote from: Adam on August 04, 2013, 11:15:53 amQuote from: iAmBullet on August 04, 2013, 01:18:40 amI'll leave this post by saying that I think the main gameplay of Soldat should be 50% aim/weapon manipulation and 50% movement.Uhhh, No.When I said Soldat should be consisted of 50% movement and the other 50% accounts of every other aspect of Soldat, where did you find fault in that Adam? There's a certain characteristic about the nature of Soldat and how it's made that sets it unique from any other 2d sidescrolling fps game -- the versatility of the movement is highly flexible and the amount of manipulation you have over your gostek is more than any game I've ever played. I can tell you from personal experience that having a decent aim with any weapon does not even compare to the work, practice, and repitition needed to become a decent runner on all the CTF maps. I suggest to build upon the unique characteristics of Soldat -- movement and running -- as a way to make Soldat seem more enticing and to set Soldat apart as something "new", or unique, rather than it be any regular fps game where you just aim and shoot and movement doesn't really matter at all. Nobody likes constantly being killed by campers and people who just hover-spray, but with the new WM, this is becoming quite the preference for most players. I'm only arguing that movement should not be over-looked as the devs make changes, as even the minor tweaks to weapons can affect the whole playing field for professional flagcappers.
how do you define crap like 50% movement and 30% aim and the kind? soldat will always be a shooting game, it doesn't matter how many years you spend on honing your precious running skills, there will always be people who manage to do the same with the shooting side and most of the time running won't save you, because these individuals can, most of the time, move well enough too. why should shooting be worth any less?but which is more versatile, focusing more on movement and less on aiming or the other way around? i don't think it matters because despite what you focus on your team still needs to be competitive balanced between shooting, movement and the use of brain for you to be able to cope
how do you define crap like 50% movement and 30% aim and the kind? soldat will always be a shooting game
it doesn't matter how many years you spend on honing your precious running skills, there will always be people who manage to do the same with the shooting side and most of the time running won't save you, because these individuals can, most of the time, move well enough too. why should shooting be worth any less?
but which is more versatile, focusing more on movement and less on aiming or the other way around? i don't think it matters because despite what you focus on your team still needs to be competitive balanced between shooting, movement and the use of brain for you to be able to cope
I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.
Quote from: homerofgods on August 09, 2013, 07:23:13 amI've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...
Quote from: Adam on August 09, 2013, 10:58:08 amQuote from: homerofgods on August 09, 2013, 07:23:13 amI've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...No We are not the only ones, but you must be the only one stupid enough to say that after reading this topic. Why don't you make a point instead of trying to bash people.Anyway, what will happen to Geoffrey's idea? And 14th_account are you convinced that the overall demage is a bit too high or do you need more reasons to decrease it?
Let me try to rephrase what homer is trying to say to make it easier for you to understand, Adam.Homer is a good player, he can handle the level of play that the gathers offer without a doubt. All he is saying is that when he tries to use advanced movement techniques, he gets killed so easily because the damage output is far too high. The only way people can survive in this version is by essentially either camping or going at a slow pace. Why is everybody so opposed and reluctant to suggestions that would increase the speed of gameplay? Are the players who have played this game a long time too stubborn to accept a change they are not prepared for? What are the downsides to an increased game pace? Is Soldat always going to be a game mainly dominated by campers? On a side note:Threads proposing questions similar to that of this one is always approached with a set in stone mindset, not an open mindset. Why?These threads are not supposed to an argument, but a debate; no need to talk condescendingly or insult other peoples opinions. Otherwise, suggestions like this are never going to go anywhere.
you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...
Quote from: Adam on August 09, 2013, 02:56:13 pmyou're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...I'm basing my assumptions based on every mode I've played in Soldat, in every level (gathers, pubs, dm, tm), but enough with assumptions, let's get down to some facts.Adam, name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive style of play that have won SCTFL. Every single team for the past 22 SCTFL's have won mainly off of which team has the players who can essentially camp and defend best. Let's use the past SCTFL for example: FOST vs i9. (i9 won)i9 has arguably the player with the best aim in Soldat, Ayrin aka CastYet, if you watch him play here (starts at 15:46), you can see that he rarely makes aggressive plays attacking the enemy base. Out of their whole team composition, I'd say that the most aggressive is Lesonen, and the in-between guy is hellsik; however, all of them rarely use any advanced movement techniques. Nowadays, it doesn't make a difference whether a player has good or bad movement, because movement has a miniscule effect on the outcome of CTF anyways. A team can literally have all walkers who don't know how to flip and still win, because Soldat is a "good defense beats good offense" kind of game. This has been an on-going trend for all the past SCTFL's and will probably continue to be, and to be frankly honest, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's a waste for a game like Soldat - with its incredible arsenal of movements - to acquiesce to the stereotypical fps or sidescrolling shooter games where the main dominance of gameplay lies in camping. Soldat can ascend to a greater level, reaching further beyond a regular sidescrolling shooter if the full potential of this game is utilized - by that, I mean if skillful movement had a bigger and more rewarding outcome in competitive scenes like SCTFL. Perhaps, giving rushers a higher chance of surviving can help Soldat to achieve this potential. In my opinion, the most fair and logical way to do this is by lowering the output of damage from all the weapons (seriously, multi-kills with barrett?).Also, it would be really appreciated and contributing to the debate if you (Adam) provided some more concrete examples and evidence to support your posts. It's clear what side you're supporting, but honestly your posts thus far have all been irrational and are poor in explanation as well. If you don't have the time to write the post, either take some time to write a well-explained post or don't voice your opinion at all.
Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals
Ignorance is bliss.So only 10% of teams who have made it to finals have won. I did make a mistake by asking you to name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive stle of play that have won SCTFL. That's stupid on my part, but the point is obvious being the gargantuan majority of SCTFL teams who win SCTFL are all camp-oriented. Yet again, you only addressed 20% of my post while ignoring every other point I made. I always try my best to give you thorough explanations addressing your whole posts, but you don't have the ounce of respect to do the same for me?If you seriously didn't read my whole post before posting then I take offense to that, whether you meant to offend me or not.Quote from: Adam on August 09, 2013, 04:40:44 pmOnce I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finalsSo what if it's finals? Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping? Why should a team stop attacking and being aggressive just because they reach the finals? I appreciate the examples you gave me that disproved my initial argument, but my point still remains valid - SCTFL (and Soldat in general) is a scene where campers dominate the field. Adam, I don't want an argument to develop out of this debate. Please don't take my posts directed at you in an offensive way. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective as I'm sure you're trying to reciprocate to me as well.
My biggest concerns so far:- AK and the Minimi are too inaccurate. They are both supposed to be longer range than the Steyr which is currently beats both of the guns on any range.- Barrett is binked too easily by semis. Pubbing I feel like the Spas' stray pellets cause more bink than a faceful of spray.- Ruger is inferior to DEs as both are mostly 3-hit-kill but the latter shoots faster and has more shots. Ruger seems to suffer from eats more than DEs.- Deagles are slightly OP, can't say for sure cause I suck with them but maybe increase the fire interval or reduce the speed instead of damage. The ability to modify the spread of the two bullets would be a blast.- Steyr still too dominant, not necessarily too powerful anymore but AK and Minimi are too weak in comparison.- I have never liked the LAW's delay. Every time it seems like everyone using it has no-delay hack because of lag/animation issues. I don't think removing it would make it OP and people would still prefer the knife.- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.
Quote from: Dusty on August 13, 2013, 05:52:31 pm- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.What you discribe might also be due to lagg, the bullets doesn't actually hit. I'm a spas user and I think it's fine. Spas is good on specific maps as for example ctf_Guardian.Other then that I agree with you
Barret is way too powerful, multi kill? seriously? lol
nobody wants to gather some sctfl proes in a server
Ussocom needs nerfing as well. It's too fast and dealing too much damage.
14th_account since nobody wants to gather some sctfl proes in a server, I spent some time trying to make the weapon mode a bit better. I'm guessing most people in this thread would approve of theese changes:[Desert Eagles]Damage=184 --> Damage=176FireInterval=22 --> FireInterval=25[HK MP5]Damage=102 --> Damage=96[Ak-74]Damage=104 --> Damage=98[Steyr AUG]Damage=73 --> Damage=67[FN Minimi]Damage=86 --> Damage=80MovementAcc=2 --> MovementAcc=1
Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.
Quote from: homerofgods on September 10, 2013, 07:44:09 pmDesert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.I don't get the point of this. Ruger is nowhere near getting guaranteed two hit kills, and with less bullets and slower fire interval it's inferior to Deagles.
First of all I wanted to do as little as possible, and rather change it even more for the next release/beta. I'd be happy to do more, but theese seamed to be the changes most people would agree on right now. I wanted to decrease general demage so I gave a -8 decrease on the sprayer guns because their bullets are all over the place. Desert Eagles got -10 because it was so op, but it's still just enough to get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky.It wouldn't matter much if I reduced demage on barret or M79 so I just left them alone for now. (I didn't want to do too much)I could have done some demage reduction on spas aswell, but ruger was allready a bit weaker then the other guns so I didn't tutch it. I decided to give a little better accuracy to minimi because it's supposed to be a long ranged gun, right now it feels like it has worse accuracy than hk and steyr.If you get some sctfl proes in a server it would great, but if you don't I'm suggesting these changes to ensure some demage reduction.
Wich is why I want to nerf DE...
Quote from: homerofgods on September 10, 2013, 08:45:59 pmWich is why I want to nerf DE... I meant what's the point of having Deagles to "get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky." Deagles shouldn't be able to kill in two shots in any situation.
Quote from: Dusty on September 11, 2013, 06:41:01 amQuote from: homerofgods on September 10, 2013, 08:45:59 pmWich is why I want to nerf DE... I meant what's the point of having Deagles to "get a kill on 2 headshots if you're lucky." Deagles shouldn't be able to kill in two shots in any situation.I guess I was thinking that it would encourage deagle users to try to aim well, it would be funny for them to sometimes hit a perfect two shots. But although it's still possible I made it so that it's very difficult, it would't happen often. If I lower damage by 1 more it would be impossible, we could do a poll on it and see what people want.Ruger has way more chance of getting a kill on 2 shots. I tested it.Listen.. If I was in charge of the weapon balance I would decreace movement accuracy of ruger. I would lower the bullet spread on HK and instead give it more interval, then balance it out with demage.I would give both minimi and ak more interval, and instead more demage/accuracy.I would give soccom close to 0 fireinterval so you would be able to shoot as fast as humanly possible, but lower damage.I would perhaps nerf barret a bit, but I like to be able to doubblekill sometimes.I am quite confident I would make a better minigun aswellActually I might upload my ideal weapon balance later, but for now I just wanted to suggest the most important changes.