[Normal] Overall damage is too high?

[homerofgods]

I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.

[Adam]

I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.

seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...

[homerofgods]

I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.

seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...

No We are not the only ones, but you must be the only one stupid enough to say that after reading this topic. Why don't you make a point instead of trying to bash people.
Anyway, what will happen to Geoffrey's idea? And 14th_account are you convinced that the overall demage is a bit too high or do you need more reasons to decrease it?

[Adam]

I've started playing gathers again and the overall demage is just too high. I'm not saying that because I suck, I'm saying it because it's hard for anyone to get to the enemy base and back.
If I had to point out op guns I'd say it's still deagles and steyr.

seriously,you and ginn are probably the only people on irc whining about how hard it is to get to the enemy base and back, play something else if you find it that difficult...

No We are not the only ones, but you must be the only one stupid enough to say that after reading this topic. Why don't you make a point instead of trying to bash people.
Anyway, what will happen to Geoffrey's idea? And 14th_account are you convinced that the overall demage is a bit too high or do you need more reasons to decrease it?

Yeah, I did make a point. Don't play gathers if the level of play is too far high level for you... it's not a bash it's a statement.

[iAmBullet]

Let me try to rephrase what homer is trying to say to make it easier for you to understand, Adam.
Homer is a good player, he can handle the level of play that the gathers offer without a doubt. All he is saying is that when he tries to use advanced movement techniques, he gets killed so easily because the damage output is far too high.
The only way people can survive in this version is by essentially either camping or going at a slow pace.

Why is everybody so opposed and reluctant to suggestions that would increase the speed of gameplay?
Are the players who have played this game a long time too stubborn to accept a change they are not prepared for?
What are the downsides to an increased game pace?
Is Soldat always going to be a game mainly dominated by campers?

On a side note:
Threads proposing questions similar to that of this one is always approached with a set in stone mindset, not an open mindset. Why?
These threads are not supposed to an argument, but a debate; no need to talk condescendingly or insult other peoples opinions. Otherwise, suggestions like this are never going to go anywhere.

[14th_account]

Adam, you're attacking him rather than addressing the arguments. You can't possibly expect to be taken seriously with these debate tactics.


homerofgods, it's only been a handful of days since the release of 1.6.5. I've barely gotten to play the version myself. I haven't formed an opinion on the current level of weapon damage.

[Adam]

Let me try to rephrase what homer is trying to say to make it easier for you to understand, Adam.
Homer is a good player, he can handle the level of play that the gathers offer without a doubt. All he is saying is that when he tries to use advanced movement techniques, he gets killed so easily because the damage output is far too high.
The only way people can survive in this version is by essentially either camping or going at a slow pace.

Why is everybody so opposed and reluctant to suggestions that would increase the speed of gameplay?
Are the players who have played this game a long time too stubborn to accept a change they are not prepared for?
What are the downsides to an increased game pace?
Is Soldat always going to be a game mainly dominated by campers?

On a side note:
Threads proposing questions similar to that of this one is always approached with a set in stone mindset, not an open mindset. Why?
These threads are not supposed to an argument, but a debate; no need to talk condescendingly or insult other peoples opinions. Otherwise, suggestions like this are never going to go anywhere.

you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

[iAmBullet]

you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

I'm basing my assumptions based on every mode I've played in Soldat, in every level (gathers, pubs, dm, tm), but enough with assumptions, let's get down to some facts.

Adam, name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive style of play that have won SCTFL.

Every single team for the past 22 SCTFL's have won mainly off of which team has the players who can essentially camp and defend best.
Let's use the past SCTFL for example: FOST vs i9. (i9 won)
i9 has arguably the player with the best aim in Soldat, Ayrin aka Cast
Yet, if you watch him play here (starts at 15:46), you can see that he rarely makes aggressive plays attacking the enemy base. Out of their whole team composition, I'd say that the most aggressive is Lesonen, and the in-between guy is hellsik; however, all of them rarely use any advanced movement techniques.

Nowadays, it doesn't make a difference whether a player has good or bad movement, because movement has a miniscule effect on the outcome of CTF anyways. A team can literally have all walkers who don't know how to flip and still win, because Soldat is a "good defense beats good offense" kind of game. This has been an on-going trend for all the past SCTFL's and will probably continue to be, and to be frankly honest, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's a waste for a game like Soldat - with its incredible arsenal of movements - to acquiesce to the stereotypical fps or sidescrolling shooter games where the main dominance of gameplay lies in camping. Soldat can ascend to a greater level, reaching further beyond a regular sidescrolling shooter if the full potential of this game is utilized - by that, I mean if skillful movement had a bigger and more rewarding outcome in competitive scenes like SCTFL.

Perhaps, giving rushers a higher chance of surviving can help Soldat to achieve this potential. In my opinion, the most fair and logical way to do this is by lowering the output of damage from all the weapons (seriously, multi-kills with barrett?).

Also, it would be really appreciated and contributing to the debate if you (Adam) provided some more concrete examples and evidence to support your posts. It's clear what side you're supporting, but honestly your posts thus far have all been irrational and are poor in explanation as well. If you don't have the time to write the post, either take some time to write a well-explained post or don't voice your opinion at all.

[Adam]

you're basing your opinions off of playing in public? I haven't seen anyone being forced to camp or go at a slow pace in the competitive scene. I've seen more people rushing then defending or whatever you describe camping as...

I'm basing my assumptions based on every mode I've played in Soldat, in every level (gathers, pubs, dm, tm), but enough with assumptions, let's get down to some facts.

Adam, name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive style of play that have won SCTFL.

Every single team for the past 22 SCTFL's have won mainly off of which team has the players who can essentially camp and defend best.
Let's use the past SCTFL for example: FOST vs i9. (i9 won)
i9 has arguably the player with the best aim in Soldat, Ayrin aka Cast
Yet, if you watch him play here (starts at 15:46), you can see that he rarely makes aggressive plays attacking the enemy base. Out of their whole team composition, I'd say that the most aggressive is Lesonen, and the in-between guy is hellsik; however, all of them rarely use any advanced movement techniques.

Nowadays, it doesn't make a difference whether a player has good or bad movement, because movement has a miniscule effect on the outcome of CTF anyways. A team can literally have all walkers who don't know how to flip and still win, because Soldat is a "good defense beats good offense" kind of game. This has been an on-going trend for all the past SCTFL's and will probably continue to be, and to be frankly honest, there's nothing wrong with this per se, but it's a waste for a game like Soldat - with its incredible arsenal of movements - to acquiesce to the stereotypical fps or sidescrolling shooter games where the main dominance of gameplay lies in camping. Soldat can ascend to a greater level, reaching further beyond a regular sidescrolling shooter if the full potential of this game is utilized - by that, I mean if skillful movement had a bigger and more rewarding outcome in competitive scenes like SCTFL.

Perhaps, giving rushers a higher chance of surviving can help Soldat to achieve this potential. In my opinion, the most fair and logical way to do this is by lowering the output of damage from all the weapons (seriously, multi-kills with barrett?).

Also, it would be really appreciated and contributing to the debate if you (Adam) provided some more concrete examples and evidence to support your posts. It's clear what side you're supporting, but honestly your posts thus far have all been irrational and are poor in explanation as well. If you don't have the time to write the post, either take some time to write a well-explained post or don't voice your opinion at all.

Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals... You wanted me to name a sctfl clan that won with rushing? Invictus and EF(the two at the top of my brain) oh and  prkl

[iAmBullet]

Ignorance is bliss.

So only 10% of teams who have made it to finals have won. I did make a mistake by asking you to name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive stle of play that have won SCTFL. That's stupid on my part, but the point is obvious being the gargantuan majority of SCTFL teams who win SCTFL are all camp-oriented.

Yet again, you only addressed 20% of my post while ignoring every other point I made. I always try my best to give you thorough explanations addressing your whole posts, but you don't have the ounce of respect to do the same for me?
If you seriously didn't read my whole post before posting then I take offense to that, whether you meant to offend me or not.

Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals

So what if it's finals? Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping? Why should a team stop attacking and being aggressive just because they reach the finals?

I appreciate the examples you gave me that disproved my initial argument, but my point still remains valid - SCTFL (and Soldat in general) is a scene where campers dominate the field.

Adam, I don't want an argument to develop out of this debate. Please don't take my posts directed at you in an offensive way. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective as I'm sure you're trying to reciprocate to me as well.

[Adam]

Ignorance is bliss.

So only 10% of teams who have made it to finals have won. I did make a mistake by asking you to name one SCTFL team consisted of rushers and aggressive stle of play that have won SCTFL. That's stupid on my part, but the point is obvious being the gargantuan majority of SCTFL teams who win SCTFL are all camp-oriented.

Yet again, you only addressed 20% of my post while ignoring every other point I made. I always try my best to give you thorough explanations addressing your whole posts, but you don't have the ounce of respect to do the same for me?
If you seriously didn't read my whole post before posting then I take offense to that, whether you meant to offend me or not.

Once I read your first paragraph I stopped... of course a sctfl clan is going to defend in the finals... it's fucking finals

So what if it's finals? Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping? Why should a team stop attacking and being aggressive just because they reach the finals?

I appreciate the examples you gave me that disproved my initial argument, but my point still remains valid - SCTFL (and Soldat in general) is a scene where campers dominate the field.

Adam, I don't want an argument to develop out of this debate. Please don't take my posts directed at you in an offensive way. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective as I'm sure you're trying to reciprocate to me as well.

lmao "Does being in the SCTFL finals have the connotation of an instance where it's all about defense and camping?" it's common sense if the other team is rushing you defend and do the opposite when you're rushing they defend. It's funny you keep saying campers dominate the field when all caps come from rushing, also why should I show respect to a simple-minded fool who claims you can only win by camping? Please tell me a clan that got to playoff by just standing in base with a barrett on full zoom.

[homerofgods]

So does anyone have some real suggesions for 14th_account to consider when he come around to play some?
I'm suggesting longer fire-interval for steyr to balance it out. Along with the overall demage decrease ofc.
I might like soccom as it is. It's cool to be able to shoot as fast as you can click so if you lower demage you could lower fire-intervals
Maybe you could further differate between short range (HK and steyr) and long range (AK and minimi) by giving the long ranged weapons less demage, more accuracy and speed, while short ranged weapons get more demage, less speed and less accuracy. Good idea?
Perhaps give the barret some more recoil so that you can't run unaffected while shooting. Shooting would instead halt your momentum a bit. Just an idea.

[Dusty]

My biggest concerns so far:

- AK and the Minimi are too inaccurate. They are both supposed to be longer range than the Steyr which currently beats both of the guns on any range.
- Barrett is binked too easily by semis. Pubbing I feel like the Spas' stray pellets cause more bink than a faceful of spray.
- Ruger is inferior to DEs as both are mostly 3-hit-kill but the latter shoots faster and has more shots. Ruger seems to suffer from eats more than DEs.
- Deagles are slightly OP, can't say for sure cause I suck with them but maybe increase the fire interval or reduce the speed instead of damage. The ability to modify the spread of the two bullets would be a blast.
- Steyr still too dominant, not necessarily too powerful anymore but AK and Minimi are too weak in comparison.
- I have never liked the LAW's delay. Every time it seems like everyone using it has no-delay hack because of lag/animation issues. I don't think removing it would make it OP and people would still prefer the knife.
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.

[Adam]

My biggest concerns so far:

- AK and the Minimi are too inaccurate. They are both supposed to be longer range than the Steyr which is currently beats both of the guns on any range.
- Barrett is binked too easily by semis. Pubbing I feel like the Spas' stray pellets cause more bink than a faceful of spray.
- Ruger is inferior to DEs as both are mostly 3-hit-kill but the latter shoots faster and has more shots. Ruger seems to suffer from eats more than DEs.
- Deagles are slightly OP, can't say for sure cause I suck with them but maybe increase the fire interval or reduce the speed instead of damage. The ability to modify the spread of the two bullets would be a blast.
- Steyr still too dominant, not necessarily too powerful anymore but AK and Minimi are too weak in comparison.
- I have never liked the LAW's delay. Every time it seems like everyone using it has no-delay hack because of lag/animation issues. I don't think removing it would make it OP and people would still prefer the knife.
- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.

Soccom should also be buffed

[homerofgods]

- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.

What you discribe might also be due to lagg, the bullets doesn't actually hit. I'm a spas user and I think it's fine. Spas is good on specific maps as for example ctf_Guardian.
Other then that I agree with you

[ginn]

- Spas feels super weak on any other than close range. Maybe intended, but even trying to shoot somebody below you who's bleeding, landing all the pellets and not getting a kill is rediculous. Every time I pick it I feel like the pellets do zero damage on longer range.

What you discribe might also be due to lagg, the bullets doesn't actually hit. I'm a spas user and I think it's fine. Spas is good on specific maps as for example ctf_Guardian.
Other then that I agree with you

There's really no reason to pick spas instead of DE... or any weapon other than DE really, except maybe steyr. Put some fucking effort into the wm before you change things up -_-

[Dusty]

Earlier I though my Ruger aim is just off, after checking I see it was because of the added movacc. If it must be nerfed I'd suggest more a longer reload or fire interval. MovementAcc in general doesn't fit my idea of "fast paced shooter action game" because even that one notch nearly forces you to stay still to be effective with the weapon.

It was a top tier 1v1 DM weapon and also probs my favourite yeah, but imo not overused nor in need of a nerf.

[nosejj]

Barret is way too powerful, multi kill? seriously? lol

[ginn]

Barret is way too powerful, multi kill? seriously? lol

It has no accuracy now though, slight movement makes the shot go in a random direction.

[Adam]

this is weapon mod is really horrid compared to 1.6.4. I'd rather have a op spaz that requires some sort of skill then a 2-shot-rapid-killing DE , steyr that kills very fast and accurately, and a rett that is tremendously easy while the rest of the weapons are rendered useless (except for minimi). I'm starting to question why anyone would think of adding moveacc to ruger when autos are able to worm and not have their aim effected, also the eats from this version seems to have increased quite a lot compared to 1.6.4(ask anyone) or maybe it's just extremely bad luck.

horrid grammar like always