Affecting reload time

[homerofgods]

Rolling, backflipping and nading delays your reload time. Relistically it makes sence because you only have 2 hands, but it just feels buggy because you can't predict your reload time.
Barret is not so affected by this because you normally don't reload your gun, it's just the long interval between shots, wich is unaffected by any of this.
The spas is also affected when proning/unproning, and "shooting" evnen when you're out of ammo still stops reload.

Perfect example of frustration:

<bowllet> when im playing
<bowllet> and my m79 is reloading
<bowllet> i have like 10 people shooting at me
<bowllet> and im dodging everything
<bowllet> but the thing is my m79 barely reloads because of all the flips
<bowllet> it's annoying

<MrBungle> when  i spas boost i waste all my ammos just to get to the ennemy base
<MrBungle> because it usually only reload one pellet in all that distance

I suggest that rolling, backflipping, nading or proning/unproning will not affect reload time!

[zakath]

Rolling, backflipping and nading delays your reload time. Relistically it makes sence because you only have 2 hands, but it just feels buggy because you can't predict your reload time.
Barret is not so affected by this because you normally don't reload your gun, it's just the long interval between shots, wich is unaffected by any of this.
The spas is also affected by proning/unproning, and "shooting" evnen when you are out of ammo still stops the reload.

Perfect example of frustration:

<bowllet> when im playing
<bowllet> and my m79 is reloading
<bowllet> i have like 10 people shooting at me
<bowllet> and im dodging everything
<bowllet> but the thing is my m79 barely reloads because of all the flips
<bowllet> it's annoying

<MrBungle> when  i spas boost i waste all my ammos just to get to the ennemy base
<MrBungle> because it usually only reload one pellet in all that distance

I suggest that rolling, backflipping, nading and proning/unproning will not affect reload time!

well this a choice either you reload or switch weapon or you dodge/roll/backflip etc.
this would remove that aspect of the game.

[homerofgods]

Rolling, backflipping and nading delays your reload time. Relistically it makes sence because you only have 2 hands, but it just feels buggy because you can't predict your reload time.
Barret is not so affected by this because you normally don't reload your gun, it's just the long interval between shots, wich is unaffected by any of this.
The spas is also affected by proning/unproning, and "shooting" evnen when you are out of ammo still stops the reload.

Perfect example of frustration:

<bowllet> when im playing
<bowllet> and my m79 is reloading
<bowllet> i have like 10 people shooting at me
<bowllet> and im dodging everything
<bowllet> but the thing is my m79 barely reloads because of all the flips
<bowllet> it's annoying

<MrBungle> when  i spas boost i waste all my ammos just to get to the ennemy base
<MrBungle> because it usually only reload one pellet in all that distance

I suggest that rolling, backflipping, nading and proning/unproning will not affect reload time!

well this a choice either you reload or switch weapon or you dodge/roll/backflip etc.
this would remove that aspect of the game.

Yes it would. If you vote yes to this you should be aware that it will change gameplay a bit, but I believe it's for the better. Just imagine what it would mean to M79-climbing

[Fryer]

I support this for proning, but definitely not for nade throwing. I'm not sure about rolls and backflips...

I'll leave this unvoted for now.

[DutchFlame]

I definitely wouldn't want boosters to see moving around with no one to touch them, and still being able to kill like hell.

It's just what zakath said, you either flip and backroll or you choose to reload.

If this would get passed through then spas boosters/runners will win this game everytime.

[Adam]

I definitely wouldn't want boosters to see moving around with no one to touch them, and still being able to kill like hell.

It's just what zakath said, you either flip and backroll or you choose to reload.

If this would get passed through then spas boosters/runners will win this game everytime.

[homerofgods]

This isn't a question of weapons balance. If spas is too good after the change we'd just nerf it in other ways.
It's about removing an annoying aspect of gameplay. If you try the barret you can see how good it feels that nades doesn't affect your reload.

[Bistoufly]

Hello,

 I support the general idea, but I would like to give some specifics and info.

I'm not sure if the poll is really relevant, as you put every animation "in the same bag". What are you supposed to vote if, like Fryer, you agree with part of it?

An obvious issue I see is the nade throw. Removing its use as a mean to cancel reloading is currently a no-go--the reason being is that spas users need it when they are in close combat and can't afford to reload between every shot.

I strongly support the points you made about the other animations.
By this I mean:

• prone
• unprone
• roll
• backflip
• shooting when out of ammo

Let me try to illustrate this with a couple of animated gifs:

In these animations I empty my weapon and then start running while holding the reload button throughout.

The first one is a string of jumps:



As you can see here all is working smoothly and it takes about 3 jumps and a half to reload the weapon.


Let’s see what happens now if you use prones:



It now takes about 7 jumps to reload. (This is twice as much as when doing simple jumps!)


Let's try with backflips now:



Once you start flipping as the gif is showing: It never finishes reloading!
(You could literally flip like this for an eternity and not see any reloading happen at all).

I'm not going to record every single animation as I think these examples are already pretty obvious and illustrate the point well.

Just a word on this observation:

..., and "shooting" even when you're out of ammo still stops reload.

I can tell this is pretty frustrating. When you're out of ammo in the middle of the action, it's quite easy to miss--time your reload tap and become an easy prey for your enemies. I think this mechanism is cumbersome and unnecessarily complex. Fixing this would probably be a trivial tweak that would bring immediate beneficial results.

I would like to answer the fears that were being raised by DutchFlame in the following post:

I definitely wouldn't want boosters to be moving around with no one to touch them and still being able to kill like hell.

It's just what zakath said: you either flip and backroll, or you choose to reload.

If this would get passed through, then spas boosters/runners will win this game every time.

 

First off this is not an issue centered around boosters/runners; it concerns every player who likes to use animations--such as rolling, proning, and flipping in their gameplay. And I don't see how we could blame them, as these movement are the salt of the game. Bringing to the gameplay the aesthetics of action-movies was what Michał Marcinkowski, the creator of Soldat, intended.

I understand your concern, though. You're concerned that these modifications could give more "edge" to runners who are notorious to use more movement animations than defense-oriented players would.
Rest assured, that would not happen. And the reasons are quite simple. Here are a few of these:

-Animations such as rolling and back-flipping prevent the player to shoot with his/her weapon (chainsaw being the exception to that rule. Note that the chainsaw got rid of the need to reload several versions ago anyway). They also prevent changing weapons and throwing nades/knives.

-Performing backflips requires facing backward. Quite a disadvantage when rushing. I think you'll agree.

-Runners (in order to chain backflips/cannon balls and prones/prone cancels) are constantly crossing their gostek with their mouse pointer. As a result they have to keep their pointer in the center of their screen. More defensive players can keep their pointer at the edge of the screen, allowing them to see incoming enemies faster.

Now I guess the choice is in your hands. Are you for removing some unnecessary frustrations from the gameplay, or are you blinded by fears of imaginary unbalance issues? 

[As de Espada]

I think that only these two should stop reloading:
backflip
rolling

[squiddy]

Damn, accidentally voted Yes.

I think it is fine as it is, gameplay would be seriously affected by this, and probably not to a better path. My vote stands on F11.

[iAmBullet]

well this a choice either you reload or switch weapon or you dodge/roll/backflip etc.
this would remove that aspect of the game.

I think that only these two should stop reloading:
backflip
rolling

I don't think that this is a fair way to sum up your conclusions.
Why keep the reload time separate from dodging/rolling/backflipping instead of choosing to integrate them together? After all, reloading and dodging are binded in a cause and effect relationship where reloading causes a player to start dodging, since s/he is the most vulnerable to death during reloading. Since these two things are meant to go together (logically), I think it's best for them to be merged as one aspect of the game rather than two separate, rather annoying, ones.

This won't just give fast flagcapping boosters an advantage, it will benefit everybody who plays Soldat, as HaSte explained above.

Since HaSte provided some examples of how professional gameplay with the Spas is hindered by rolls and backflips, I thought I would provide another weapon example in which these two movements hinder and aggravate gameplay.

This first gif shows the regular reload time for m79, without interference. ~3 seconds




This is a gif of the reload time while flipping. ~6.5 seconds




Now take a look at the reload time for m79 while rolling. ~8




The time it takes to reload an m79 while rolling is 8 seconds (7.91s to be precise), which is more than twice the amount of time it takes to reload an m79 without interference.
(Note: The gif is sped up 200% because it was too long to be a gif otherwise, which, as a statement itself, already proves it takes too long to reload an m79 while either backflipping or rolling. The timer is also sped up accordingly.)

Then again, it's not realistic for a person not to be flipping or rolling while his/her m79 is reloading anyways; consequently, the m79 reload time is longer than it should be in competitive matches or even pubs, which is leaving players vulnerable for far too long.

Getting rid of the interference of reload time will truly be a benefit to all the players of Soldat and will increase the pace of the gameplay as well; this will ultimately transform the premise of Soldat into a more competitive and fast paced game - something that almost all shooting games don't have (because of constant campers).

[homerofgods]

I might agree that it's ok to delay reload when you are throwing a nade. But backflipping, rolling and proning does not need to delay reload.

[Dusty]

well this a choice either you reload or switch weapon or you dodge/roll/backflip etc.
this would remove that aspect of the game.

Agreed. I think of this as a strategic aspect of the game that forces you to think of what and why you're doing even a bit.

the m79 reload time is longer than it should be in competitive matches

What are you basing this on, experience or because it neatly supports your idea? M79 hasn't been a problem in competitive as far as I remember. Definitely not underpowered at least.

[iAmBullet]

the m79 reload time is longer than it should be in competitive matches

What are you basing this on, experience or because it neatly supports your idea? M79 hasn't been a problem in competitive as far as I remember. Definitely not underpowered at least.

I'm basing this off of how I feel in games, gathers and public servers together. As I'm sure there are many other players like me, I'm a player who likes to do a lot of flips and rolls to increase either my mobility or deceptiveness. The m79 reload time is actually a huge issue to me because every millisecond counts and, although it may not seem like much, every millisecond of my reload time being hindered from a roll or a flip matters. It's true, m79 hasn't been a problem in competitive because there's nobody who mains m79, or uses it as their "go-to weapon", per se, because it's not reliable when it comes to survival. The regular reload time is ~3 seconds, but most of the time when I'm in a match, every reload time is ~4-5 seconds, so it's not an ideal weapon for me as opposed to automatics or Spas.

All I think is that there's no reason for reload time to be halted during the rolling and flipping animation along with the fact that it's an annoying aspect of the game. Removing this would definitely benefit gameplay imo, and if this change happens in the new version, don't go thinking that everybody's going to become an "m79 noob", since the same problem that happens to the reload of m79 applies to any other weapon as well. m79 is just a good example to use.

Can you give me any examples of how this might server as a detriment to gameplay please? I'd like to hear just for knowledge.

[14th_account]

When I asked MM a few years ago to tweak exactly this, he challenged me find a scene in a movie where someone reloaded while rolling. I still haven't found one. I kinda sorta agree with him now though, as with the current system you have to make an active decision whether a situation calls for dodging enemy fire or reloading faster.

So unless anyone can find a video of Arnold reloading during a roll as he takes down a small South American country, then I'm inclined to keep it like it is. =)

[Furai]

Not while rolling but close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGo6b9J2Cks

[14th_account]

The only reload I saw there occurred while running. It's clear to me that she prioritized the reloading speed instead of dodging.

Try harder.

[iAmBullet]

@Skoskav: With logical reasoning, I assume that your're basing whether this change should be made or not from how realistic it is, as it's technically not realistic to reload while rolling; however, in this video you see the person shooting while flipping/rolling or w/e the hell he's doing, which is not something even a few people (probably) can do in this world.

I just want to know this so I don't keep bothering the community about the issue, but what are the possible detriments that cancelling the disruption in reload time during flip/roll animations might bring? I think that this should only be a feature in realistic mode, but I'd like to hear your reasons too.

[homerofgods]

There isn't a single movie that shows a guy rolling and reloading at the same time, but shouldn't we be worrying about the gameplay instead of how realistic this is? If MM wants to decide stuff he can come here and tell us!
I mean, realism doesn't hurt, but only if it isn't a pain in the but. There's a reason why I'm playing this game instead of bringing out my M79 in reallife :p Not that I have an M79, but my point is that realism isn't allways fun.

[Bistoufly]

So unless anyone can find a video of Arnold reloading during a roll as he takes down a small South American country, then I'm inclined to keep it like it is. =)

Would Stuntmen reloading their gun while flipping make it for you? =)








Special Thanks to Bullet for finding these gems!
Original Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAaUE5Eqpmw
 

[14th_account]

Awesome! That sure counts. I also just found another example in a shitty Hollywood movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoDKXozA0M4&t=38s

I guess I have to implement it now...

[Ninosan]

F12 please. Im m79 noob

[jasmi]

F12 please. I'm a M79 noob too.

[Dark-General]

Sup?

As a freakin' old player, I support this commitment... purpose... thing... whatever. Let's roll!

kthxbai

[soldatrage]

My answer to this poll was yes. The reasoning behind my yes vote was i have been bothered by this aspect of combat in Soldat for the many years i have played, if this actually took effect in the game it would make it more skillful and fun to play for everyone. Some people may be skeptical but i can assure the many of you that if this actually takes place in the game you will see that it will make Soldat an overall better game. Now it will play a big part for me if it takes place because i am a CTF player but have always been very intrigued with dodging i can cannonball, prone cancel and many other tricks but at the moment this play style i have isn't working well for me because every time i do one of these tricks to dodge it delays my reloading hence me getting in bad positioning a lot of the time resulting in my death or just massive failures.

There are a couple of points i would like to make:
1. This being put into action will encourage majority of Soldat players to learn all the little tricks that make the game great.
2. It will give some of the older players reason to keep learning and perfecting their skills.
3. Soldat will eventually become a game of skill and dodging making others want to keep playing and new players to start playing.

All i want is for Soldat to be all it can be and for the players to be all they can be aswell. So i completely agree with every point of this you should be able to reload while backflipping,Grenade throwing,rolling,proning/unproning. -Rage

[MAiN]

I'm not going to repeat the same thoughts that others have already stated above me, since they were already clear enough
It's definitely frustrating to avoid your movement/dodge skill in order to reload faster.
IMO to be able to reload while CB/backflips prone/unprone just follows Soldat phylosophy

[9host]

please consider my response a general expression of concern and motivation. it falls within the context of this thread, as well as the broader perspectives pertaining to Soldat.

we're scared, and we're scared to admit we're scared.

there's an internal struggle to accept change, which is inherently human. it's understandable to fear the future, and sometimes it's difficult to imagine ourselves in it. but we have been kids, and yet we play like kids. because we each hold so dearly to our beloved game Soldat, it is difficult for us to let it grow up. as if it were our own child, we wish forever to relive the young memories we have had in our years playing Soldat.

it is unnatural, however, for life not to evolve. i believe the world itself evolves everyday, whether we r aware of the phenomenon or not. perhaps it may sound childish, but Soldat is a world for me, as well. i want to sea it blooming differently every season; i want to exp. new adventures every day and dream new dreams every night; i want to sea Soldat expand into endless opportunity...!

many misfortunes will come of change—i am not afraid to admit that.

nonetheless, the greatest misfortune is to have relinquished the moment you were inspired to wish for a desire and then to wallow in the regret of never having had the chance to exp. it.

we should appreciate the world, Soldat, for being imperfect, for that is wut bestows us its dynamic beauty. if we were to persist to pretend Soldat is perfect in 1 aspect or another, eventually we would grow out of our illusions; eventually, we would abandon the world that was Soldat without ever consciously realizing it.

i fear that more than nething.

hence, i ask that we do not restrain Soldat from existing in harmony with world order. however disastrous or miraculous or insignificant or emotional or virtuous it may be, the power of wishes is the only power we control over the world.

i do wish to sea reload time effects nullified, for the reasons i've stated above along with the many mechanical qualities in favor of the freedom of movement in Soldat gameplay.

[Moroes]

F12ed. I am definitelly for this suggestion. Why wouldn't it be in soldat. It is not crazy at all. Just watch some soldat matches. Don't think about realistic aspect of the game, it is not a real war. It should be fast-paced 2D shooter. Jumping, backfliping and then right in the action. No waiting for the reload after my hopping around.
We have some awesome moves in soldat, it is not just about perfect aim, but you should be able to run away from enemy base or to do fast rush, to be unpredictable and this feature will just boost the game .

[ginn]

I'm not sure I fully agree with having it always reload whatever you do, but I could see just slowering the reload speed while backflipping/rolling/etc, instead of completely halting it, could work.

[2FastRealMaaan]

Well , for me , i completely agree with you..
Actually it's been annoying me alot...Whenever i try to dodge i dont have reload advantage, especially with barret and m79..

It would be just perfect if i could reload while doing mini jumps and cannon balls!

Votes UP! :3

[Dusty]

If you had actually read the initial post instead of rushing to vote right after registering you'd know this wouldn't affect the Barrett at all, as animations don't delay the fire interval.

[Walls]

I'm m79 noob. Yes.

But really, i think a reloaded weapon should be available to use after you do a roll.

[paintZoom]

someone should put a server with the m79's fire interval and reloadtime similars to the barret
this way you can test if this suggestion actually do some good to the gameplay
although i would like to test it with all the weapons..
anyway i wanna check this feature in-game badly

[2FastRealMaaan]

If you had actually read the initial post instead of rushing to vote right after registering you'd know this wouldn't affect the Barrett at all, as animations don't delay the fire interval.

I play mostly oneshots ctf. And even though the reaload doesn't happen that often with the barret, it still is annoying. Sure not as much as m79 which relaods between each shot. But i still think it should be fixed for all weapons.

And I'm sorry for registering so late in the forums. I wanted to participate since a long time. Unlucky me, i kept having troubles with activation.

[ki0sk]

I vote yes.

Let's make this gostek more badass.

You can use saw when rolling, why not reload too?

oh and add bloodsaw back

[As de Espada]

soldatrage's response changed my mind. I go for f12 now.
Ginn's suggestion is also interesting

[homerofgods]

Thank you everyone, for replying to my suggestion.
I'm in no doubt what so ever that reload time should not be affected by rolling, backflipping or proning/unproning.
However, I'm having second thoughts about removing the delay when nading.

- First of all, when you dodge you are not attacking anyone, you are trying to survive so you can come back later with full ammo. But should you choose to use a nade, it's attacking, and therefor I don't mind it delaying reload for a bit.
- Secondly, it's not realistic to be able to throw a nade while reloading.
- Thirdly, I feel that if we remove the delay when nading it changes gameplay a bit, you can spam nades any time without thinking, as opposed to rolling, proning and backflipping where I feel we are fixing a bug.

Am I right? It would be a compromise that more people would be willing to accept.