Author Topic: Complaint on new movement system  (Read 12490 times)

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Offline Puure

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Complaint on new movement system
« on: October 15, 2013, 12:30:43 pm »
Hello dear community.
I'm not sure if I created this topic in right section, if not, I'm sorry. I would like to raise the issue which appeared with the latest version and has a significant effect of the climb mode. I'm talking specifically about this: "Fixed pressing both [ left ] and [ right ] movement keys should move you in the first direction pressed #380". Reading this before released 1.6.6 I did not expect that it will have such a significant impact on the game in climb mode. By introduced changes, backsteps jumping have become tragic. On the climb servers, players are outraged. Making backsteps was unchanged since the beginning of Soldat and players were accustomed. Many maps which require proper jump on the previous soldat versions have been possible to complete, but in 1.6.6 same maps with the same jumps are impossible now, or player need huge luck to beat the map.
Backstep is a kind of "rebound" in the right direction by A+D+W, so three keys at once. In 1.6.6 you have to let go A/D before push W. Simple right? not exactly...
Indeed,on the polygons in a straight line we can do backstep without any problem (it's just a matter of habit), but how to do it at an angle of 45° or 70°? These types of jumps are already problematic especially when we have a little space to do it, because "gostek" will not do this when we press W, he will run away and not stop. Let me explain few jumps on demo on different versions (1.6.5 and 1.6.6).

As we see, making the same jumps on the 1.6.6 its practically impossible now. Of course someone can say im noob and i don't know how to jump a "new method" heh, but all climbers will say the same thing even the most experienced climber. I don't know why it was changed, for what? Why You changed this movement? I understand that the newer version should be better etc. but if You entering this change please keep in mind ALL modes! (also climb). On the modes like CTF, DM, Knife etc. its not noticeable, because there is no need to use it. While the climb by this "upgrade" has been completely changed. Soldat it's not only shooting and throwing knives, Soldat its also great game of skill which require a lot of combinatorics jumps. There is many players which playing ONLY climbs. Something special for everyone :) But now for the most climbers its not a same game.
Is there any chance to release a little patch which return "old movement system"?
Please other climbers to say your own opinion about this.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2013, 01:19:53 pm »
I thought this is what the RC versions are for.

Offline Adam

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2013, 02:56:03 pm »
something always fucks up during release

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Offline Leader

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 03:30:12 pm »
I agree with you in 100% Pure. New version of soldat has many new modifications and it makes problems in climb. These problems are often impossible to avoid and maps are becoming impossible to cap. It is really annoying., but what can I write more.. I hope that next version will be fixed and old settings would have came back.

Offline Falcon`

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 03:37:28 pm »
You people should've played RC.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:39:53 pm by FalconPL »
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Offline Masakrysta

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 05:15:57 pm »
This new movement is fucked up :'(
I Agree FIRST post !
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 05:18:27 pm by Masakrysta »

Offline Adamo

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 05:35:04 pm »
I totally agree with Pure. Multiple maps has now become impassable and many players are unhappy :/; (. It is as if you went in the opposite direction, not the one you want. I sincerely hope that this will be corrected as soon as possible


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Offline Shoozza

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 06:17:01 pm »
Hi, there were a few modifications during the beta and release candidate releases for Soldat 1.6.6.
I tried to make sure the changes are ok for the players, it seems like you didn't participate in these tests and the discussion.
IIRC these changes were introduced as a bugfix and for consistency reasons.

I cannot watch the demos you attached as I'm missing the maps/scenery etc to watch them (I guess that's why you called them "gowno"*.sdm aka "shit"*.sdm :P) so at this time I'm unable to check what is actually wrong with the movement changes in the new version.
It would be great if you could attach all the files which are need to watch them.
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Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 06:20:19 pm »
If you know how to make animations of the moves that are now difficult, it would be great. If not, I could possibly help you if you gave me/us the map and the demos.

Offline 14th_account

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 10:33:50 pm »
Please demonstrate this on a default map. TheOne mentioned in this post that all it requires is a steep polygon. There are steep polygons at either side of ctf_Nuubia to demo it on.

Offline Puure

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 09:04:32 am »
(I guess that's why you called them "gowno"*.sdm aka "shit"*.sdm :P)

The name of demo was spontaneous xd
Indeed, I forgot attach the map, sorry then. Of course demo doesn't reflect this exactly, may as well
I could fail jumps on purpose, but I did it normally. If You know how to do backsteps (old movement), You should check it in practice in both versions, then You will see how big difference is.

Offline bobbity

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 11:43:21 am »
Agree with op. Ive only heard people complain about this, and i wonder how you devs have not, nobody likes "Fixed pressing both [ left ] and [ right ] movement keys should move you in the first direction pressed". Anything else but this... please

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 12:18:33 pm »
In my opinion changes in movement system are the beginning of the end climb mode. When I turn on 1.6.6 first time I felt like an amateur which start climbing yesterday. After this all years pressing both [ left ] and [ right ] movement keys is not a bug, but feature. So I fully agree with the creator of this topic.
Also, I would like to introduce demo which show very useful jump used by many people. After changes it is impossible to do. This jump lets fully control of behaviour and now its gone :( I called this "minijump with possibility to do backflip". Demo was recorded on 1.6.5 version. I attach a map with modificated alpha spawn. This jump is helpul in many other situations. If someone tells me that this jump can be replaced by, for example miniflips, isnt a real climber.
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Offline Nedi

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 02:03:22 pm »
New movement system sucks. Please fix it.

Offline KwazaR

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 04:18:40 pm »


That's what my reaction was like when I first joined the game on the newest version. What I wanted to say has been pretty much mentioned in there. I'm for fixing this one. Thanks.

Offline Bonecrusher

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 04:54:11 pm »
It's a tad annoying when climbing I have to say.

Im chill like that

Offline TheRealSp00n

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 06:24:51 pm »
pleasseee change it back!! climbing is not the same!

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2013, 07:36:14 pm »
Can't you see me, skoskav and shoozza is trying to find a solution? Don't make us read empty posts, we allready know the whole climbing comunity is against this.

Would it be any better if you moved in the direction of the LAST key hitted instead of the FIRST? I'd have to check how that would work with everything else though

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 03:11:43 am »
Would be nice to see some video clip explaining what the problem is, just shouting that it sucks doesn't really help your case much. I know you have posted some demos, but if you want some community support most of us are too lazy to reinstall 165 to watch a demo!
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Offline Puure

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 04:15:03 am »
Would it be any better if you moved in the direction of the LAST key hitted instead of the FIRST? I'd have to check how that would work with everything else though
there's can not to say clearly that will be better, but that is an idea.

I know you have posted some demos, but if you want some community support most of us are too lazy to reinstall 165 to watch a demo!
Installation takes one minute wow, if it is a waste of time for someone, they are really lazy...
Devs and People interested will show more enthusiasm in this problem.

Offline BlindMan

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2013, 07:44:00 am »
I wanted to upload an attachment to avi, but I had problems with the line. I apologize if my posts appear double.
I allowed myself to record kici demo and I've uploaded on youtube.
I hope that this will be of help. It is visible in 1080HD
Greetings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pERaNsJ4s0A&feature=c4-overview&list=UUKWqof9rbZqaGxCMDC_deLg

Offline KwazaR

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2013, 02:48:31 pm »
To clarify what you can see on this video: it was until release of 1.6.6 that you could jump just a little straight up - obviously thanks to the move we all are talking about. Not only that. I made use of it a loot while I was rushing through maps because it greatly confined the distance of your jumps. I'm not sure if anyone used this in a similiar way but nonetheless, this whole situation considerably makes climbing more difficult and well, annoying.

Offline Arishi

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 12:53:29 pm »
Dear Soldat Community

I don't really want to tell you guys the same story all over again, but it's not necessary because most of the guys on this thread share my oppinion on the new version 1.6.6 that was currently released. I was really impressed by the names i read going through this thread, because it really seem to influence the gameplay of most of the climbpros. For me too it was like i joined my preferred climb-server and just felt like a total noob where i had some of my best climbs 2 days ago. With this patch climbers lost like 2 years of climbing practise.

I mean.. don't get me wrong, i don't want to blame anyone for developing one of my favourite games and try to make it better, but this patch really was against the climbing part of our community. Btw i read the rules and know that you don't want to accept climbing as an official mode of Soldat, which i partly can understand. The other side is that i see climbers knowing so much more about the movement system than lots of non-climbers. I mean.. if you had the luck to observe one of the best climbers in a good shape yet, then you just have to appreciate what u saw.

What i think is, that THIS:

Quote from: homerofgods on October 16, 2013, 07:36:14 pm
Quote
    Would it be any better if you moved in the direction of the LAST key hitted instead of the FIRST? I'd have to check how that would work with everything else

would solve all climbers problems.(Need to ensure this.)

I hope we all can solve this problem together, because i personally lost my motivation to improve all over again in climbing. And if i don't play Climb-Mode i don't play Soldat.

Cheers
Arishi

Offline rOy

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 01:39:15 pm »
In my opinion changes in movement system are the beginning of the end climb mode. When I turn on 1.6.6 first time I felt like an amateur which start climbing yesterday. After this all years pressing both [ left ] and [ right ] movement keys is not a bug, but feature. So I fully agree with the creator of this topic.
Also, I would like to introduce demo which show very useful jump used by many people. After changes it is impossible to do. This jump lets fully control of behaviour and now its gone :( I called this "minijump with possibility to do backflip". Demo was recorded on 1.6.5 version. I attach a map with modificated alpha spawn. This jump is helpul in many other situations. If someone tells me that this jump can be replaced by, for example miniflips, isnt a real climber.

I Agree! >:(

Now climbing isn't great (1.6.5 was good)

Shitty,fuck system now! :(

FIX IT !

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2013, 10:29:03 am »
Please don't waste my time with content free "yeah I have it too - and it also hurts a lot really deep down" posts.

I was playing looking at the demos and the current solution for 1.6.6 is to tap <- and press -> if you want to do some the 1.6.5 jumps.
As for what will happen in 1.6.7 with this behavior I'll have to think about some solutions.
The main reason why this move was changed was because of consistency reasons (you always moved ->).
So if there is a way to make this behavior consistent and still allow players to do their jumps then it's good.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 10:42:17 am by Shoozza »
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Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2013, 04:33:41 am »
I can't seem to get the installation of the game to work but if things are really changed to:
"pressing both [ left ] and [ right ] movement keys should move you in the first direction pressed "

Then I think you could just aswell kill the game. There's no use in playing Soldat without the basic Soldat movements and I can't honestly believe that anyone could think that this would only destroy the climb game modes. You need to be able to use backflips with chosen speed, direction and height in all game modes. Also mid air direction changes and cannonballs to increase your speed. It takes skill to fully control all these movements but they are all extremely well integrated parts of ordinary gameplay and this change alone would effectively destroy the gameplay in most, if not all game modes.

Perhaps you could find some obscure sub game mode like Steyrs and Soccoms which would still work in the current Soldat 1.6.6, as how it's been described, but that'd be only because in that mode movement is done by firing a gun with reverted and increased push back - thus pushing your gostek forwards. Sub game modes with that kind of movement are however played on extremely rare occasions and only by very few Soldat players. To get them played at all they're usually crammed together with other small sub game modes and put into Multi Mode, which even even as a package isn't all that widely recognised by the Soldat community (which in turn has also shrinked to a small part of the former player base, much due to other malfunctions introduced in earlier updates).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 05:33:51 am by NamelessWolf »

Offline TheOne

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2013, 07:28:01 am »
I do climb a lot and I believe this is not as serious an issue as players take it. Jumps are still possible, only a little harder to perform.
Consistency might help new players to learn the movement faster.

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2013, 07:39:21 am »
More players left this game after modifications than started play so I don't think it was a way to increase number of players.
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Offline Dusty

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2013, 09:51:59 am »
-- and this change alone would effectively destroy the gameplay in most, if not all game modes.

What?

Strangely enough I didn't even notice this game destroying change and to be honest, I still don't after all these complaints.

I <3 the way many of you exaggerate the issue. It was the exact same case with the running community and some changes that I've forgot already. You keep claiming this and that will kill the game, yet apparently in this case too, you can still do everything you could before.

Offline BlindMan

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 01:49:03 pm »
Hi, I have read the messages where you ask us to not flood the board with empty messages.
I apologize in advance if this message will be considered as such.

I do climb a lot and I believe this is not as serious an issue as players take it. Jumps are still possible, only a little harder to perform.

We have known several years ago, in the Last Stand mode.
In short, you know me and you know that I've never been a cheater or a troller or other unpleasant.
And so I want to tell you without offend you that the fact that you're dedicated to climbing does not coincide with what you have written.
The jumps are no longer the same as before, this can be easily confirmed by all the pros in this mode.
I find it useless and not very constructive to say that we can do the jumps as before, because this is not true!

As regards the comment of Dusty, it makes me laugh.


Strangely enough I didn't even notice this game destroying change and to be honest, I still don't after all these complaints.

I <3 the way many of you exaggerate the issue. It was the exact same case with the running community and some changes that I've forgot already. You keep claiming this and that will kill the game, yet apparently in this case too, you can still do everything you could before.

He speaks because he has so many stars under the nick or because it is a climber?
A climber who has not noticed differences is not a climber.

I would like to know if I have hope in a new version or if i must stop play.
I do apologize again if now you are reading you are wasting your time, but these things in my opinion went said.
Greetings.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 02:56:04 pm by BlindMan »

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 02:54:57 pm »
I don't know exactly how the new movement works since I can't even seem to install this version of the game. I might have misunderstood what was changed, but I'd still like to point out that movement in Soldat is and must be very complex.

As an example you don't just move left by pressing A. You press A, while pushing and releasing W (if using standard keys). This makes you jump forwards, which is much faster than just "walking". Then you might move your cursor with the mouse right, thus changing direction, press W to jump and hold D (the key for moving backwards, relative to where you were going) for a short moment, quickly turn again and push A instead of D while releasing W. You may also change direction once more by moving your cursor. This should perform a backflip with a specific speed and angle, depending on your timing for the different actions (which are all performed within less than a second, unless holding the backflip until you've dropped some height). You use different variants of backflips while moving around the map in pretty much all game modes, both as brakes, to accelerate or just to change direction.
It can actually happen in some moments (with standard keys) that D is the key to press if you want your gostek to go left as fast as possible. At first I thought that'd be changed in this version and if so it would inflict in a negative way on all major game modes.

What I'm trying to say is basically that the refined movements which are necessary to play climb maps are also featured in the gameplay of CTF, TW, DM and other game modes where combat takes place. Changing the ways of movement is generally not a good idea, although I specifically do understand idea behind the roll out of prone thing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:18:13 pm by NamelessWolf »

Offline Dusty

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 03:16:47 pm »
He speaks because he has so many stars under the nick or because it is a climber?
A climber who has not noticed differences is not a climber.

Sorry but I didn't quite catch your drift. Is my opinion less valid because:
a) I have been posting actively on the forums, hence the stars
b) You think I'm a climber, yet not a real climber because I haven't noticed a difference
c) something else, please explain

Just to make it clear to you, I'm not a climber and to be honest I find climbing a waste of time as it won't improve you as a vanilla player as much as by playing vanilla itself, and vanilla CTF/DM is all I (used to) care about. This said, I was also speaking only about the vanilla game when I said I haven't noticed the change during the few rounds I have played after the release.

What I'm trying to say is basically that the refined movements which are necessary to play climb maps are also featured in the gameplay of CTF, TW, DM and other game modes where combat takes place. Changing the ways of movement is generally not a good idea, although I specifically do understand idea behind the roll out of prone thing.

Some people prefer consistensy over complexity. I personally don't think the change in question affects the vanilla gameplay at all in the larger scale. There might be a trick or two that are now broken but the usefulness of these tricks in the first place is questionable at least.

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 03:25:59 pm »
In this case both consistency and complexity seems to be in favour of the old ways of Soldat movement. I don't plan to go much further in this debate since I haven't had the chance to test the changes (and I don't really know if it's as bad as I first thought) but if there's a trick affecting your movement which has been lost I'd say that's definatly something useful being lost.

As an example, would you define dodging a bullet as something "useful"? I would definatly. Same goes for any other motif behind changing your speed and direction in game. Whatever ways there are a good player will find a way to use such tricks in his favour and as long as it's not something incredibly overpowerd those are often the moments which makes the game better.

What could still be positive is the added "roll out of prone" movement. That's an added trick rather than something removed, although I'm used to being a sitting duck if prone without sliding.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:43:37 pm by NamelessWolf »

Offline TheOne

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2013, 04:53:29 pm »
heh, thanks for your politeness BlindMan. not feeling offended in any way, I know I'm not a pro climber and perhaps I miss seeing the tragedy because of that :)

Offline 2FastRealMaaan

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2013, 04:04:02 pm »
I 100% agree with you. Its a complete suffer to get over these changes.
Also these issues have taken effect on other modes.
When movement matters, a mistake cannot be acceptable.
=3

Offline dead_pizza

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2013, 07:35:54 pm »
Ok, the following text is not meant to be a "pure" logical argumentation, but rather an emonional feedback for a game i do care for:

Don't know if my name means something to someone anymore (m79_climbing records anyone?  ;D),
but:
-with years of soldat gameplay (since 2006) including all kind of mods,
-having written tons of mods and scripts for soldat,
-and not only having administrated our own JYPD M79-Servers but also many soldat servers for many years,

i can only say:
-this movement change is terrible and sad  :'(
-every single person claiming this change isnt an issue and/or a total complexity downgrade, has no idea about professional soldat gaming

Even if i have never time to play, I - for sure - won't play soldat until this is fixed... but who cares if I play or not, right?

Sorry everyone, for wasting your time   :-\

best regards
JYPD | DeaD_pIZZa
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 07:41:52 pm by dead_pizza »

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2013, 08:51:42 pm »
It irrirates me that you claim to care about the game, but instead of contribute to finding a solution, you seam more focused on explaining your feelings.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 08:53:36 pm by homerofgods »

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2013, 01:50:55 am »
My suggestion would be to revert the game version to the last one made by Michal.

Offline Falcon`

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2013, 02:34:54 am »
there you go. Happy playing!
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Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2013, 01:55:57 am »
Thanks, though it would take for everyone else to do it aswell.

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2013, 03:42:56 pm »
After playing some I can conclude that this change is a complete disaster to the game. You often can't prepare backflips in the way you should (by holding both left and right in a jump until you reach the point where you want to backflip) and it makes a lot of jumps completely impossible. You have to stop in many situations and waste time before you're even able to change direction, which means that there are less situations where you can choose reasonably between two different routes. It also removes one way of dodging bullets.
There are absolutely no benefits in the particular change which makes your character keep running in one direction when holding both left and right, instead of stopping his movement, preparing a backflip. If I wanted to keep running left or right in the air and if I didn't want to prepare a backflip I wouldn't have pressed both keys. I would have pressed just one of the keys.

I wonder just how you got the idea to make the gostek run left when holding the key to run right and vice versa. It makes no sense at all apart from the fact that it partly removes an important way of moving in Soldat.


Although there seems to be a lot of other changes made just now which were absolutely essential to making the game playable again. So many things have been broken before that I don't know where to start and in the last game I played most of those issues actually seemed to be gone. For years we've been stuck with a game which wasn't really functional at all, but removing all those errors doesn't make it a good idea to add others.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 04:03:26 pm by NamelessWolf »

Offline Boots

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2013, 02:18:42 am »
If you guys all actually cared about the welfare of the game you would have been around for the beta tests in previous version before this "bug" was fixed. Not joining up on the forums yesterday and preaching about the game being ruined for ever.


My suggestion would be to revert the game version to the last one made by Michal.
You obviously have no idea!

i can only say:
-this movement change is terrible and sad  :'(
-every single person claiming this change isnt an issue and/or a total complexity downgrade, has no idea about professional soldat gaming
I actually laughed at this post, thank you.  [pigtail]
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Offline Mittsu

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2013, 05:51:09 am »
i have absolutely no problems making backflips, nor do i have any problems with the movement whatsover. I'm loving the roll-out-of-prone addition :D


actually, the thing about not moving right while still pressing left, and vice versa, seems to help with backflipping :D
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 05:53:48 am by Mittsu »
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Offline Bonecrusher

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2013, 06:45:41 am »
It made some of the easiest climb maps into try and fail type of jumps. As for beta testing ive never seen beta climb server
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 06:50:32 am by Bonecrusher »

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Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2013, 12:16:08 pm »
If you guys all actually cared about the welfare of the game you would have been around for the beta tests in previous version before this "bug" was fixed. Not joining up on the forums yesterday and preaching about the game being ruined for ever.


My suggestion would be to revert the game version to the last one made by Michal.
You obviously have no idea!

i can only say:
-this movement change is terrible and sad  :'(
-every single person claiming this change isnt an issue and/or a total complexity downgrade, has no idea about professional soldat gaming
I actually laughed at this post, thank you.  [pigtail]

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Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2013, 01:10:59 pm »
That boot could be returned by a nice new trainer.

Offline TheOne

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2013, 03:01:20 pm »
There are still players around playing the old versions of Soldat. Feel free to install one of them instead of the current version...
That's a curse with a game being untouched for such a long time. We got accustomed so much, not only to the controls but also to the bugs. That's why you hardly see the improvements but only negative changes.

Offline Bistoufly

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2013, 04:21:55 pm »
There are still players around playing the old versions of Soldat. Feel free to install one of them instead of the current version...
That's a curse with a game being untouched for such a long time. We got accustomed so much, not only to the controls but also to the bugs. That's why you hardly see the improvements but only negative changes.

On the other hand, it's hard to find any improvement in the new left/right key overlap behavior.
I just can't think of any practical benefit in day to day practice of Soldat movement or climbing with the new system.


- If the goal was to make the left and right behave the same: => Congratulation. It is a success.

- If the goal was to improve the movement mechanics: => You failed. There are no advantages to be found in the current behavior.
And it came with a cost: It made a bunch of movements less forgiving timing-wise than they used to be. 


To sum up the opinon of your local Soldat movement nerd:

It looks good on paper.
...but
It doesn't have actual benefits.
...and
It made things harder for most climbers.


I hope that clear things up for anyone wondering what the hell is this issue about.

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2014, 11:30:36 pm »
I still don't understand how you can make it out as a problem only or to the most part for climbers. The movements used by climbers are the same movements which you use normally to move around a map and during combat. All players, in all major game modes and sub game modes, lose from not being able to hold the gosteks leg movement in a jump.

I also don't understand how you can define the old working functions of the game as 'bugs', while the destruction of Soldat during the last few years have been categorised as "updates" and "changes".
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 11:33:12 pm by NamelessWolf »

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 07:24:30 am »
I'm not a climber or runner, but I want to understand something

In older versions of soldat you had different behavior in different directions. If you were going Left, then start to press right, you would change directions and go right. (The last button you pushed was the direction you would go in, let's call this behavior A.) But if you were going right, then start to press left, you would continue to go right. (The first button you pushed was the direction you would go in, let's call this behavior B.)

Then we found out that we should have the same behavior in both directions, for consistancy. We found out that behavior A was the best one and got that implemented in 1.6.6Beta1.
There was some issues with backflipping that got fixed with 1.6.6Beta2.

I thought we had a very good movement system now and I was happy. But then people complained and there was another change:
So in 1.6.6 (current version) we implemented behavior B in both directions instead.

Now I see people complaining again.
I really can't see why the first fix wasn't perfect, and I want to get to the bottom of it. Can anyone give me some examples or explain why 1.6.6Beta2 wasn't the perfect solution?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 07:28:15 am by homerofgods »

Offline Kabuto

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 08:35:53 am »
The movements used by climbers are the same movements which you use normally to move around a map and during combat.

lol. Really, it is funniest thing I read in this forum xD

The same like in CTF? Go to climb server and watch how many jumps you can make in soldat :]

Offline NamelessWolf

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 10:59:36 am »
The many different jumps are exactly what gives the game potential. The more you perfect your skill - not XP or any of that bullshit but really skill - the more ways you get to handle different situations which you stumble upon in game. That sparks a will to improve and that it takes so long to master all the different variations effectively keeps the game from being getting boring. To keep players from leaving Soldat the game needs to fun not only the first times you play it, but also in the long run.
Climb maps may have parts where you simply must do a specific jump in order to make it through, but to me the most fun for me personally comes from actually using the movements in CTF, TW or TTW in an improvised way and as a means of dominating the battlefield.

The roll out of prone thing might've been a good add. The air surfing thing while kneeling was a really, really bad one - but what troubles me even more are all the tiny variations in backflips which have been effectively removed. It clearly has an effect on the game.

I don't quite recognise that the movements ever did work differently depending on directions. I suppose I could've missed that version. The only problems I can remember complaining about was changes to the movement which made it less agile and simplified it in a way which could only cause problems.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:17:47 am by NamelessWolf »

Offline Bonecrusher

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2014, 01:29:00 pm »
Some basic kick jumps in climb are still ridicolously painful to perform unless you have some initial velocity.

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Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2014, 05:15:30 pm »
Some basic kick jumps in climb are still ridicolously painful to perform unless you have some initial velocity.
Here's the ticket on movement system: http://bugs.soldat.pl/view.php?id=380
If you can find specific examples on what moves are difficult I'd like to add them to the ticket. You can use <>^ to explain or take a demo of the move.

Btw, I hear that skoskav has fixed crouch-bug / Aladdin for 1.6.7 so you won't need that script :P
I'll be trying to put some more climbing bugs in mantis and get the developers to fix them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 05:19:01 pm by homerofgods »

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2014, 01:26:58 pm »
I also heard about few new fixes in new version. But its hard tell about anything when we dont have access to newest version. I suppose that new version will bring also new bugs, so i dont understand so big delay beetwen versions. When we want to fix this quickly , we should test first, then talk, not like now when we talk and nobody cares this topic.
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Offline Irlandec

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2014, 03:45:28 am »
Quote
On the modes like CTF, DM, Knife etc. its not noticeable
Your words hurt me much..
It is noticeable, we(knifers) already were discussing about new movement system for next Soldat version.
It made some of the easiest climb maps into try and fail type of jumps. As for beta testing ive never seen beta climb server
This brings the idea of making one of the experienced and Soldat-dedicated climber to test new versions, especially movement system. In my opinion, climbers know better about how to move over, perform jumps and all what is connected with moving around. We can also discuss this, since this game is based on community-oriented suggestions, right?

P.S.: Notice the bold points please.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 03:54:05 am by Irlandec »

Offline Moroes

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2014, 05:16:44 am »
Quote
On the modes like CTF, DM, Knife etc. its not noticeable
Your words hurt me much..
It is noticeable, we(knifers) already were discussing about new movement system for next Soldat version.
It made some of the easiest climb maps into try and fail type of jumps. As for beta testing ive never seen beta climb server
This brings the idea of making one of the experienced and Soldat-dedicated climber to test new versions

Well I guess many people noticed the change but the movement in soldat is really complex and hard to explain everything in detail. People have their own playing styles and some of them didn't even notice the change or they just don't have problems to get used to new movement system.

As for the climber to test new versions I believe we've already got one (Bistoufly). He's even runner and knows all the movements well. It got better in 1.6.7a according to him, we will see when beta comes out.

Offline Bonecrusher

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2014, 11:24:06 am »
Yea but limiting alpha phase to a few selected climbers/runners might cause some trouble simply cause of tiny nuanses every other soldat player developed over the years. For all i know he might be using different set of keys and some moves might be easier/harder to perform depending on the settings.

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Offline Irlandec

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2014, 11:30:56 am »
Well I guess many people noticed the change but the movement in soldat is really complex and hard to explain everything in detail. People have their own playing styles and some of them didn't even notice the change or they just don't have problems to get used to new movement system.

As for the climber to test new versions I believe we've already got one (Bistoufly). He's even runner and knows all the movements well. It got better in 1.6.7a according to him, we will see when beta comes out.

I guess experienced climber knows 90% or more about movement than anyone else. If this beta tester as good as he has this position and being competent about this question, then I must say that it's simply not enough - this topic is a pure evidence. Since you claim that "soldat is really complex and hard to explain everything in detail" for most of the people it means that this system needs more specialists than one. For example, climber can test all the possibilities of the system while runner can use this more practically and common for players.

Quote
Yea but limiting alpha phase to a few selected climbers/runners might cause some trouble simply cause of tiny nuanses every other soldat player developed over the years. For all i know he might be using different set of keys and some moves might be easier/harder to perform depending on the settings.

That's why you have OBT for. Plus, player own settings are not that vital for a game, if you ask me. If I understood this right, we are developing the core here, not the "cosmetics" or "additions".

For those, who think that I am offending someone, it's a constructive critics with direct suggestion. Don't take this as a holywar.

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2014, 02:53:44 pm »
Please test the latest beta. It hopefully fixes your problems.
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Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2014, 06:00:02 am »
Firstly, big thanks for devs for restoring micro jumps!
After tests (so far) on new beta I must say that movement is almost perfect for me, except one thing explained by Viral in this topic: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=43273.0
Quote
-when on a steep poligon, try holding to it with direction key only, then release it and after a split second ( when you notice you are starting to fall) try to jump away with the oposite direction key + W, if done correctly the gostek won't jump instantly like it used to, but after a "noticible while" (you can see him moving his legs in the air next to the poy, but he wont actually jump). This is even noticible on less steep polygons, but this is the worst possible scenario. Hard to explain but I'm sure you will notice it even if you do not follow these instruction, just jump on/off steep polies and you will surely notice it.

I made some demos - what I am doing on 166 and what (with poor result) I am trying to do on 167b1. This kind of jump is much much easier on 166.
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Offline Lysy z Brazzers

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2014, 04:55:38 pm »
That fail at jumping from steep polygon, what viral explained in more details, is what HAS to be fixed. Maybe for nonclimbers it isnt even noticable, but for us climbers it is, and it f%$&# up climbing quite a lot.

Offline 15th_account

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2014, 05:23:16 pm »
Thanks for the test map and demos. I think I know the changed mechanic that is messing you up in 167b1.

In 166 if you pressed both < and > (left and right) you would always move >. In 167b1 it works differently:

* If you press two directions at once you will start moving in the latest direction pressed. E.g. > + < will result in <.
* If you press a direction key, then jump, then the other direction key, you will continue moving in the first direction until either it or the jump key are released. E.g. > + ^ + < will result in >.

So as per your demo... if you move into the wall with > and then press < to prepare the jump you will start walking away from the wall, making you unable to wall jump. The solution here to jump the way you want is to either:

A) Don't at any point hold both direction keys pressed as you're about to jump off. Switch from side jumping right to side jumping left immediately.
B) "Roll" off the > direction by holding ^ in between the direction change. This way you can keep moving into the wall and jump off at the exact moment that the current > side jump animation ends. Do this thusly: > + ^ + < + !>

!> means releasing >

I don't think the new movement system has broken this situation as I just performed 20 of those jumps in a row on that map using technique A. It's just a matter of acclimatization.

Offline Viral

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2014, 09:35:45 am »
If you think it's fine, try to perform this http://imgur.com/SqSrHMm jump on Adi$_Hardcore on 1.6.6. Now come to 1.6.7, and try to do it again, if your jumping technique isn't totally different, you will notice the change. In 1.6.7 its nearly impossible, and my ghostek even did some random breakedance moves i didnt even intended to do ( sth like: instead of jumping off the poly, jumps few px up and starts sliding or some shit, cant even describe it). Its clunky, and i even had problems with getting up there with godmode, because i couldnt perform this kind of jumps while getting there, lol.
The 2 solutions you mentioned (back to the sliding issue we were talking about):
A) You mean Hold >>, release, hold <<+ ^? If so, sadly it doesnt really work, or if it works, its like 2/10 tries - maybe i just do sth wrong.
B) Impractical - sounds like a way-around the problem, and is impossible to do while performing the sort of jumps i mentioned above (adis' map).


Offline 15th_account

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2014, 10:53:20 am »
Download link to the map?

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2014, 11:10:55 am »
Only .pms file should be enough.
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Offline Viral

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2014, 11:53:47 am »
After some deeper tests we came to the conclusion, and possible fix:
In 1.6.6 you could do A/D + W combo on the steep polies without loosing ground under your legs. In 1.6.7 when you press A/D + W your character will move a little bit to the new direction, causing you to fall from the poly (thats why its so visible on steep polies) and THEN jump. So in 1.6.7 you have to do W+ A/D to not fall OR A/D + W simultaneously ( and i mean like very close to each other).

This caused the following problem, when you run up the steep poly, you have to D + W (running >>) rapidly to get speed, then when you jump back, you need to change the direction to the opposite, so
- you hit A + W, but you didnt hit it simultaneously, you loose your ground, and fail like a nub.
- you do W + A, like explained before, but you were running, and in most cases you will jump >> because you actually performed aother D + W jump

So right now you have to  D+W, get speed, release all button mid air, W+A (or A+W simultaneously). Very hard to not stop on the steep poly, when things are going very fast.
So the possible solution:
Make the A/D button + W connection gap like it used to be in 1.6.6, so you actually have time to add W to the direction key before the gostek starts moving. Right now he moves way further in between pressing the keys than he used to.

Offline Bistoufly

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2014, 11:56:46 am »
I tried your map, Viral. I find it hard to get the jumps consistently.
I missed that issue when reviewing the build I received from skoskav for testing.


These kinds of jumps require you to be pretty precise with your key press, release and overlap timings.
It happens in a small time window, so you kinda do it by feeling more than by trying to consciously time anything.


Really a complex matter. I hope you can work with skoskav to find a solution. As I don't think I'm up to the task for this particular issue.

Offline Bistoufly

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2014, 12:19:38 pm »

This
- you hit A + W, but you didnt hit it simultaneously, you loose your ground, and fail like a nub.
and this
So right now you have to  D+W, get speed, release all button mid air, W+A (or A+W simultaneously). Very hard to not stop on the steep poly, when things are going very fast.
is what I observed yesterday as well when trying the jumps in 1.6.7b1

I think the timing skills required are too high.


 Maybe we need a solution that allows you to "buffer" ahead the direction key before you actually touch the polygon edge for the "away jump". While still moving towards the ramp. So for a ramp like " / " you should be moving > if you overlap right and left. That means the earliest pressed directional key should decide the direction.

The issue is that behavior is not suited for some other situations. For example when you want to start a flip with a an initial backjump.
 
I'm just throwing out a little idea. Here it goes:
 What if latest pressed key decides the direction when you are grounded. And earliest direction key decides the direction when you are airborne. Could that work somehow?

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2014, 03:43:17 pm »
I made some gifs to explain the two issues

1:
My first attempt here is a success because I pressed A+W simultaniously.


2:
Fail:

Success:
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:08:39 pm by homerofgods »

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2014, 09:39:37 am »
I just would like to ask if we can count on some changes with cases described in last posts. I read that 2 more beta version are planned, so now we have brilliant time to test new solutions before final new Soldat version.  Or maybe this topic should be closed?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 09:43:55 am by kicikici »
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Offline Viral

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2014, 11:23:59 am »
1.6.7b2 (also b1)
Find a steep polygon (~45degrees). Now hold a movement key to UP the hill. While still holding the movement key TAP the opposite direction key.
Two results:
If you face the hill you are moving on you will bounce off the poly while taping the button.
However, if you face the opposite diretion, you wont notice the behavior i mentioned above.
So the problem with jumping off the polygons is hardly connected to this problem. Is it the ony reson the jumps got worse? I don't know but it would be a good way to start the fixes. It would be cool to see some changes before the new stable version :C

Offline Viral

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2014, 09:48:37 am »
@UP
1.6.7 - still exists >.>

Offline homerofgods

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2014, 11:14:45 am »
Not sure I understand, but could it be because the walking bacwards animation is different from the walking forward animation?

Like this?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 11:20:35 am by homerofgods »

Offline Moroes

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2014, 12:21:40 pm »
^Yea there's definitelly a difference between forward/backward. Well I guess it always was but now it's different in my view, can't explain how...

Offline Viral

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2014, 01:55:59 pm »
It's exactly this. Is you can see the gostek "jumps" up a little, and you can't perform a jump because you are not touching the ground. In earlier versions the direction change was working smoothly both ways, now its working only when facing the opposite direction you are heading.

Offline Moroes

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2014, 06:32:46 am »
^ Yea that's how it works now.

Offline kicikici

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2014, 07:39:35 am »
Yeah, finally someone discovered main point of this issue.
I believe that skoskav gets a huge headache when he see posts in this topic ;p
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Offline dominikkk26

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Re: Complaint on new movement system
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2014, 03:59:20 pm »
Unfortunately, you can not play, it might be good for the climb but I wish zauwarzyć it is subgamemode.