Author Topic: Sad about WM situation  (Read 13575 times)

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Offline jirow

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Sad about WM situation
« on: March 17, 2014, 12:19:07 pm »
Ok so, I played soldat for very long, then i stopped for about two years... And now I`m returning.

I`m brazilian so I usually get to play on the TM brazilian scene, with 5 second stealth immunity spawn, where ppl get to load their one shotters at the same time Autoer's get to shoot. But that's not the issue.

You see, the thing is that with the lowering of movespeed, auto bullet damage and barrett bink, the only truly viable auto against barretteers is the MINIGUN. Ok, why?

Ppl camp with barrett and m79. A - LOT.
I call it "corner camping", because they stay behind cover just by corners. What happens is that they force you to make the first move and come out in the open, and then they come out too. The thing is that you MUST hit them first, or they will one shoot you. This ends up forcing you to outrange yourself or simply go close quarters. The problem is that in close quarters against the barrett, bink won't matter anyways.

You must already be shooting by the time they allow a straight line to exist between both. And you must hit at least 2 or 3 shots for a safe bink. Not counting nades, which make things even more complicated for non m79ers and barretteers.

Ok, what I`m trying to say is: in the Brazilian scene, out of 10 weapons only 2 are used. And of the secondaries, most use USSOCOM, since it can EASILY outtrade autos.

Just watch a survival teammatch over here. You will see ppl using only barrett and m79 and when it comes down to 1v1, grab yourself a pop corn... Cuz its a fuckin soap opera.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 01:18:51 pm »
omg... please, we know that some of you dont like it, deal with it.

Beside there is about 10 topic about WM...


PS
"the Brazilian scene, out of 10 weapons only 2 are used."
talk to them why they dont use other. I dont have problem with styer, digles or even spas. the same in public game, loots of people use other guns...

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 02:17:24 pm »
Its not really a matter of not liking. A fast paced game that gets slow paced due to railgunners... Idk, I used to play soldat in other versions and it was way more fun, autos actually had a chance. Nowadays, auto? Pick mini so you can bink consistently... And ppl always cry "mini lags server" yadda yadda.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 02:19:20 pm by jirow »

Offline 15th_account

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 02:20:56 pm »
Welcome to the forums. First, let me address some concerns.

You see, the thing is that with the lowering of movespeed, auto bullet damage and barrett bink, the only truly viable auto against barretteers is the MINIGUN. Ok, why?
[...]
And of the secondaries, most use USSOCOM, since it can EASILY outtrade autos.

* Although MovementAcc was lowered a bit for Barrett in the last two years, it isn't in effect when people are camping. The reason it was lowered was specifically to encourage a more mobile role.
* The non-1-hitters haven't gotten a noticeable damage decrease in the last two years - Certainly not enough to suddenly sway the auto/1-hitter balance. A Steyr will almost every time kill in as many shots today as it did two years ago.
* Bink has been reworked to feel less random, be more intuitive and "fair." Two years ago a single bullet would seriously disturb a Barrett user's accuracy. But no matter how much he was binked, he would always have a 33% chance of hitting exactly where he was aiming. Now the chance to hit scales together with the bink. A single bullet is only enough to affect a Barrett at long range. But several hits will greatly reduce his chance of hitting even in mid range. I assume that this change is the main source of any recent balance disturbance in competitive TDM. It was, however, a necessary change for competitive CTF.
* Minigun is intended to be a serious weapon, don't bash it just because it works.
* Socom is very misunderstood. Most people think that just because it's a secondary, it should be terrible. But it's been designed to be only slightly worse than the primary weapons. I think that for most situations a semi or auto would still beat the Socom.


The weapons were never tested to work with competitive TDM, because that's not something that the main community ever really embraced. And those that do participate in it seem to keep their thoughts mostly within their community.

That said, I would love to balance M79 and Barrett in competitive TDM. But I would appreciate some suggestions how to best do so, while still keeping them useful in e.g. competitive CTF and casual DM.

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 02:34:14 pm »
Thank you very much 15th, for the warm welcome and for the concern of replying.

The movement I was talking about was the movement speed of the game in general... Could be me, but it seems that it is harder to achieve a "speed" that would become a risky shot for a sniper or nader.

I would risk saying that maybe for balancing the problem in TDMs, an increase in bullet speed and/or mid air bink for barrett would help solve the issue. A small bink in mid air would make it riskier for snipers to hover around corners shooting people, since they tend to shoot you before they get hit even by the first bullet of an automatic.

I intend to record a few demos this week and I will make a reply addressing better the issue. Thanks!!

Offline elMorvano

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 09:10:14 am »
* Minigun is intended to be a serious weapon, don't bash it just because it works.

Minigun should be ONLY for rushing with MINIMUM dmg.

You're trying do better brt for CTF and what is a result? Still nobody use brt in serious games (clanwars), in the public the most players use brt in CTF servers.

On TDM and 1v1 brt just dominate.

Brt needs radical and serious changes. I had a nice idea with brt, maybe Bune shared this with devs.
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Offline Bistoufly

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 10:11:24 am »
I had a nice idea with brt, maybe Bune shared this with devs.
Please post your idea.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 11:11:14 am »
* Minigun is intended to be a serious weapon, don't bash it just because it works.

Minigun should be ONLY for rushing with MINIMUM dmg.

You're trying do better brt for CTF and what is a result? Still nobody use brt in serious games (clanwars), in the public the most players use brt in CTF servers.

On TDM and 1v1 brt just dominate.

Brt needs radical and serious changes. I had a nice idea with brt, maybe Bune shared this with devs.
Radical and serious changes for what? Brt practically dominates on alt routes if you're good enough, shoot -- I even saw someone rushing with it on blade and still bring caps home. The only thing I'd suggest on the change with barret to become more useful in clanwars is to remove a majority of bink, add more moveacc, and make headshots take 90% of health; Body, 70%; And Legs 50% so it forces them to use soccom and still aim while providing help to their team. Not sure if it would work as nicely as I envision it to, though.

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Offline elMorvano

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 09:22:25 am »
* Minigun is intended to be a serious weapon, don't bash it just because it works.

Minigun should be ONLY for rushing with MINIMUM dmg.

You're trying do better brt for CTF and what is a result? Still nobody use brt in serious games (clanwars), in the public the most players use brt in CTF servers.

On TDM and 1v1 brt just dominate.

Brt needs radical and serious changes. I had a nice idea with brt, maybe Bune shared this with devs.
Radical and serious changes for what? Brt practically dominates on alt routes if you're good enough, shoot -- I even saw someone rushing with it on blade and still bring caps home. The only thing I'd suggest on the change with barret to become more useful in clanwars is to remove a majority of bink, add more moveacc, and make headshots take 90% of health; Body, 70%; And Legs 50% so it forces them to use soccom and still aim while providing help to their team. Not sure if it would work as nicely as I envision it to, though.

Probably you're not a player of leagues. There are real skill in 3v3 CTF and trust me almost nobody use brt in serious matches. Try to find if someone used brt in playoff. Maybe on maps like B2b, equinox, scorpion. Very very very, rarely.

- Set less ammo (like 3,4,5)
- set very long reload
- set shorter interval
- set reload after a respawn (not only interval)

What it does?
- 1v1 DM:
 * easy to kill on spawn with brt (could be very annoying for opponent - right)
 * more chances for auto's: if guy with brt is respawning or reloading then is a big chance for guy with spray.
 * if you don't want to be killed on respawn then you should change weapon on another than brt or just try to use secondary weapon
 
- CTF serious matches
 * finally more chances for dominate with brt (do some hero actions etc.)
 * easier to def with brt
 * if opponents are rushing on your base then you should take another weapon than brt (because long reload won't be helpful)

And probably more and more points. This could make this weapon more useful in CTF serious matches and do easier to play against brt on 1v1. If it won't do easier then just would be more interesting game brt vs brt (so much).

Would be good idea to make harder to aim in the fly with brt (more bink or sth). On the ground you should have easier to aim.

If we are talking about weapons who made that you can easier shoot while pressing 'X' (prone) with every spray? The easiest way to see this is use minimi and hold button 'X'. This is not logical.

Back to Adam:
"add more moveacc, and make headshots take 90% of health; Body, 70%; And Legs 50%"

With moveacc would be good but brt couldn't kill on 1 shoot? This would be tragedy. Everyone would use ruger than brt. Brt would be just useless
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Offline Adam

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 11:06:25 am »
...

 I actually do partake in leagues and have been for some time now. The issue with you comparing using rett in playoffs and in gathers/cws is that almost 90% of the time, players choose small maps which are mainly focused on rushing like Rott, Div(which is actually not bad for rett low), campeche, Wretch, and Paradigm. It wouldn't be logical to use rett on these maps when it has more disadvantages then advantages and relies on the netcode, cause, we all know if your rett shot doesn't register - you're fucked. But when you have maps like B2b, Laos, Nuubia, and Ash which promotes rett for it's long range and ability to spawn in such a small area where rett and m79 dominates. It's not really because the weapon is bad, but the maps mostly used in gathers and clanwars aren't very friendly towards rett.

Quote
What it does?
- 1v1 DM:
 * easy to kill on spawn with brt (could be very annoying for opponent - right)
 * more chances for auto's: if guy with brt is respawning or reloading then is a big chance for guy with spray.
 * if you don't want to be killed on respawn then you should change weapon on another than brt or just try to use secondary weapon

Rett already dominates in DM.

Quote
- Set less ammo (like 3,4,5)
- set very long reload
- set shorter interval
- set reload after a respawn (not only interval)

So, you basically want this: Rett to have 5 ammo, a longer reload then the one currently, a shorter interval, and the rett to reload after spawn? This would destroy rett, not only because of the small amount of ammo, but when you reload you'll have to wait longer. I don't see how this improves rett in any way since you'll still have bink, and moveacc. The two most crucial things that affect rett heavily.

Quote
Back to Adam:
"add more moveacc, and make headshots take 90% of health; Body, 70%; And Legs 50%"

With moveacc would be good but brt couldn't kill on 1 shoot? This would be tragedy. Everyone would use ruger than brt. Brt would be just useless

No, because there wouldn't be that much bink to really affect your aim, with this you could easily defend yourself with one rett shot and 2-6 socom bullets to kill of any auto user. We are talking about CTF right? Making the bullet take 90% of health on headshots and 70% on body is basically a kill when you have teammates shooting at them, or just finishing them off with socom. And you can also just get 5-6 easy shots with socom then finish your opponent off with a quick shot to the body or head. Easy. But the small some of bink wouldn't allow them to just rush in blindly and kill, since rett shots wouldn't be instant-kill anymore, but close to it if they headshot and finish them off with socom or law.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 11:10:27 am by Adam »

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Offline elMorvano

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 12:51:17 pm »



Quote
What it does?
- 1v1 DM:
 * easy to kill on spawn with brt (could be very annoying for opponent - right)
 * more chances for auto's: if guy with brt is respawning or reloading then is a big chance for guy with spray.
 * if you don't want to be killed on respawn then you should change weapon on another than brt or just try to use secondary weapon

Rett already dominates in DM.

And this would change brt to make not-domination weapon.

Quote
- Set less ammo (like 3,4,5)
- set very long reload
- set shorter interval
- set reload after a respawn (not only interval)

So, you basically want this: Rett to have 5 ammo, a longer reload then the one currently, a shorter interval, and the rett to reload after spawn? This would destroy rett, not only because of the small amount of ammo, but when you reload you'll have to wait longer. I don't see how this improves rett in any way since you'll still have bink, and moveacc. The two most crucial things that affect rett heavily.
Anyway I think that 5 ammo would be a lot! Very short interval does you can shoot very fast after first shoot = you're stopped at beginning but if you reload finally then you're with the best weapon and you can do really a lot problems for opponents.

Now brt is with a medium interval thats why it's too slow for small maps even for 3v3.
Quote
Back to Adam:
"add more moveacc, and make headshots take 90% of health; Body, 70%; And Legs 50%"

With moveacc would be good but brt couldn't kill on 1 shoot? This would be tragedy. Everyone would use ruger than brt. Brt would be just useless

No, because there wouldn't be that much bink to really affect your aim, with this you could easily defend yourself with one rett shot and 2-6 socom bullets to kill of any auto user. We are talking about CTF right? Making the bullet take 90% of health on headshots and 70% on body is basically a kill when you have teammates shooting at them, or just finishing them off with socom. And you can also just get 5-6 easy shots with socom then finish your opponent off with a quick shot to the body or head. Easy. But the small some of bink wouldn't allow them to just rush in blindly and kill, since rett shots wouldn't be instant-kill anymore, but close to it if they headshot and finish them off with socom or law.

You don't have so much time to change a weapon. All grenades will eat you before change the weapon. But anyway I like a little this idea but only if brt would have looonger zoom.

There are a lot of BETTER ideas of brt than is brt NOW. Just need change and not only +1 to dmg/ interval/reload etc etc how it looks usually.
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Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2014, 06:42:04 pm »
So I've come up with an idea.
Get two top tier teams, good teams, with "pro" players.

Make a few matches, one full barret team and a mixed one.
Change roles.
Rinse, repeat.
Evaluate according to score, team opinion, personal opinion.

I strongly believe full barret team will win more often than not.

Offline darDar

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2014, 07:03:26 pm »
So I've come up with an idea.
Get two top tier teams, good teams, with "pro" players.

Make a few matches, one full barret team and a mixed one.
Change roles.
Rinse, repeat.
Evaluate according to score, team opinion, personal opinion.

I strongly believe full barret team will win more often than not.
I can guarantee you they won't.  [pigtail]
Barret is highly played on public-servers but that's not because the weapon is so good ; it is because the players think it is good cause it only requires 1 hit to kill. Most ppl. can't think far enough. No one really plays Barret in competive matches. // only on a few maps like : Nuubia, B2B etc.
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Offline BKT

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2014, 02:02:54 am »
Aren't 'competive matches' nothing but CTF?  ???
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 10:02:37 pm »
I assure you that if they are competent they will...

Offline darDar

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 11:24:14 pm »
Aren't 'competive matches' nothing but CTF?  ???
Yes, they are.

Quote
I assure you that if they are competent they will...
I'm playing myself in the conpetive scene since 2007? now (gathers,leagues, etc) and I have never seen a team which played with 3 snipers.
If that would give you an opportunity to win the match in any way you could be sure that ppl. would play it a lot but they don't.

overall kills: Barrett 2% (from the 19th. season of the Soldst Capture the Flag League: last season was the 24th. though)
Source:
Code: [Select]
HK MP5        52897  29%
FN Minimi     33488  18%
Steyr AUG     25761  14%
Spas-12       20287  11%
Ak-74         20261  11%
Ruger 77      12509   7%
M79            8448   5%
Desert Eagles  6494   4%
Barrett M82A1  4071   2%
XM214 Minigun   423   0%

Combat Knife 19400  77%
LAW           5081  20%
USSOCOM        745   3%

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Offline Rotem

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2014, 06:22:56 am »
maybe thats because ppl dont use barrets in competetive so they wont look like noob-lamers that use 1 shot kill. publics are filled with 50% m79 and barrets and i think at least a bit nerfed should be done like why barret can kill 2 ppl in 1 shot? sometimes even 3 lol? isnt it strong enough? maybe Devs dont want to get those weapons nerfed cuz they now many ppl use it and afraid that it will make soldat even less ppl play it..

Offline 15th_account

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2014, 06:39:50 am »
[...] why barret can kill 2 ppl in 1 shot? sometimes even 3 lol? isnt it strong enough? maybe Devs dont want to get those weapons nerfed cuz they now many ppl use it and afraid that it will make soldat even less ppl play it..

Multi-kills with a single Barrett shot are relatively rare. It doesn't seem like something that would make it overpowered.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 09:14:16 am »
maybe thats because ppl dont use barrets in competetive so they wont look like noob-lamers that use 1 shot kill
The only thing people care about in true competitive matches is winning and if playing triple barrett was the way you wouldn't see any other weapons used. The thing is, one simply doesn't win matches with three barretts. Choosing weapons based on how "hard" or "noob-lame" they are is only a thing on publics and if you ever want to improve your game, you should get rid of that habit.

I assure you that if they are competent they will...
You don't seem to have much insight into the competitive scene.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:17:21 am by Dusty »

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 04:27:44 pm »
Have you ever played against or as member of a full barrett team in a competitive match?

Unless the answer is yes, don't brag about insight k?

All I'm suggesting is a simple evaluation that would most likely generate some good feedback for the devs.

Actually, Barrett multi-kills aren't even close to rare, since when there are many players in a match it is very likely to happen. Also, if you miss your target, you can get lucky offscreen kills with certain ease if you shoot the right spots.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 04:48:22 pm by jirow »

Offline darDar

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 04:56:44 pm »
Have you ever played against or as member of a full barrett team in a competitive match?

Unless the answer is yes, don't brag about insight k?
Feel Free to sign-up to the upcoming SCTFL season with a barret only team. I wish you the best of luck, but according to your posts you won't need it because no-one will beat a sniper only team.

ppl. on public servers play barret for the same reason as they play M79and Chainsaw.
They are rubbish.

There used to be good public players several years ago and there used to be good servers several years ago (can't really run a good server with the rubbish players mentioned above)

If you are sick of that you might join the IRC scene to play gathers and to participate in leagues (a place without rubbish players)

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 05:03:03 pm by darDar »
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Offline Mittsu

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 05:21:28 pm »
in CTF you can get good k/d ratio with barrett but you will still lose, that's why it's ineffective if your point is to win the round (by win i mean getting the most caps). People use barrett in public servers because they can sit down on their asses with a barrett and keep getting kills with little risk, and they don't care if their team wins or not.
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Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 05:26:10 pm »
I'm not a competent barretteer, don't have influence/friends/time to spare for that. I'm a casual soldat player nowadays, but around 4 or 5 years ago I used to play often, and barrett wasn't an issue. Also, the QQ in Brazilian TM servers because of NON-M79/BARRET users didn't exist back then. Nowadays, anyone that doesnt use either is a "nub".  Something happened, definitely.

Just get 2 good teams and run this test. I think one of the devs might be able to find and contact two suitable teams.
Record the game, post it in forums, evaluate, judge, rethink, read member's opinions and promote a proper change on barret.

As an old-days player I can say, killing with the barrett has never been so mindlessly easy...

Peace!

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 05:28:29 pm »
I partially agree with that.

But I still think seeing things in a PRACTICAL way would take barrett speculations to a higher level, and would provide insight of WHICH QUALITIES of the weapon should be changed to assure greater balance. Or even if it SHOULD be changed at all...

[]'s
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 05:32:33 pm by jirow »

Offline Dusty

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 06:43:10 pm »
Have you ever played against or as member of a full barrett team in a competitive match?
Unless the answer is yes, don't brag about insight k?
By no means was I bragging, it's just that if you don't actually have an idea about the competitive side it's silly for you to claim such things.
There's a very simple reason for the mentioned strategy not being used in real competitive matches such as SCTFL/other tournaments. You don't see it played not because nobody has come up with the idea yet, but because it simply isn't a working, competent strategy on most maps.
And yeah, I've seen plenty of different strats executed during the eight-or-so years I've spent with the competitive side of the game.

Brazilian TM
The difference between DM and CTF is that in CTF you have an actual objective that you cannot complete by sitting behind corners and running away for the whole time. The barrett will, in skilled hands, always dominate 1vs1 and maybe even 2vs2 DM situations due to its nature and making it better balanced for DM would probably also make it useless for CTF. Other than that I cannot really say anything about the BRBR scene as I usually just get kicked when I try to join these servers. Probably because of my European ping but perhaps partly because I don't play by their rules and rush them with autos.

But I still think seeing things in a PRACTICAL way would take barrett speculations to a higher level, and would provide insight of WHICH QUALITIES of the weapon should be changed to assure
Maybe so but then again you should remember that usually it's one barrett per team at most, so the results you get from three barretts in the same team might be inaccurate due to the change of the team's playing style.

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 07:00:11 pm »
Just get a brazilian team, and you might as well have FIVE barrets on one team, lol.
The other team should just play whatever style they like.

One not knowing what to expect of the other, can you imagine more "balance" than that?

And why shouldn't weapons also be balanced over DM? Shouldn't they actually be balanced for all gameplay modes?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 07:07:37 pm by jirow »

Offline Mittsu

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2014, 02:46:11 am »
some servers have limits, like 2 barretts per team, it can be scripted, if it really bothers you i suggest you just script your servers like that
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Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 10:11:55 am »
If it takes limitation to balance, why not limit barrett on every game mode automatically? ;)

DarkCrusade

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 10:49:30 am »
That's it: it does not take limitation to balance that particular gun, that is why there needs to be neither concern nor consideration in that. You don't see snipers in competitive games that much for a reason. People just don't know how to play against Barret in public servers.

Offline jirow

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 11:06:06 am »
Make a competitive 1v1 and prove me wrong, pls.

DarkCrusade

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Re: Sad about WM situation
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 12:18:30 pm »
Your understanding of 'competitive' is beyond my knowledge, but anyway! -- to clear things up: I was refering to competitive CTF matches, both 2v2 and 3v3.