Author Topic: Fix the basics of the game  (Read 5878 times)

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Offline ginn

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Fix the basics of the game
« on: July 21, 2014, 04:36:34 pm »
Right now weapons are at it's most unintuitive, as there's 50% inheritance (there's no arguing this, 100% is completely intuitive, and 0% is also intuitive). Not only does it make aiming bad, but it also punishes people who move fast or rushes, because you'll only add 50% of your movement speed to damage your opponent, but the opponent does 100% extra damage to you (so say when you rush you do 50 damage, your opponent would do 60 damage).

There's also a movement speed cap, where you cease to do any damage at all, very noticeable with spas. If you run too fast you'll stop doing damage, so your weapon become completely harmless, which is pretty dumb as you'd think spas was intended for rushing.

Nades need to have a timer from when you start holding nade to the time they can explode, so people can't just tap nade and have it explode directly (makes chainsaw quite pointless, and is just generally not fun). Not paying attention should actually be punished, so in this case it wouldn't reg until x amount of time has passed (like the time to throw a nade at full force).

Bulletspread is completely random, which makes the game highly luck based, there's no way to control it. If you want to avoid spray then add the bink mechanic in again, because that is at least skill based (as you could avoid the bink), or make it similar to the old mp5 spread, where it was predictable.

This should obviously have had been changed years ago, when soldat was still alive... But I guess you could still change it for it's last few years.

Offline Bistoufly

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 05:07:13 pm »
Right now weapons are at it's most unintuitive, as there's 50% inheritance (there's no arguing this, 100% is completely intuitive, and 0% is also intuitive). Not only does it make aiming bad, but it also punishes people who move fast or rushes, because you'll only add 50% of your movement speed to damage your opponent, but the opponent does 100% extra damage to you (so say when you rush you do 50 damage, your opponent would do 60 damage).

There's also a movement speed cap, where you cease to do any damage at all, very noticeable with spas. If you run too fast you'll stop doing damage, so your weapon become completely harmless, which is pretty dumb as you'd think spas was intended for rushing.

Nades need to have a timer from when you start holding nade to the time they can explode, so people can't just tap nade and have it explode directly (makes chainsaw quite pointless, and is just generally not fun). Not paying attention should actually be punished, so in this case it wouldn't reg until x amount of time has passed (like the time to throw a nade at full force).

Agreed with all these points.


There is a paradox in this game: Movement mechanics are so deep and satisfying when you master them. Yet being good at moving after a certain point becomes a big disadvantage once weapons are involved.
As the weapon mechanics promote camping and defense in a harsh way for any movement enthusiasts. No wonder these people stay in climb servers and hide and seek and can't adapt to ctf.


There are other things that could be pointed out as well.
Such as the ridiculously high amount of range you gain in your field of view if you put your cursor at the far edge of the screen. Which makes any movement that require you to face backward a big disadvantage. For example flips, cannon balls, prone cancels, ...


Also you can't reload while flipping. Pretty unfair.

Offline jrgp

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 01:37:39 am »
Nades need to have a timer from when you start holding nade to the time they can explode, so people can't just tap nade and have it explode directly (makes chainsaw quite pointless, and is just generally not fun). Not paying attention should actually be punished, so in this case it wouldn't reg until x amount of time has passed (like the time to throw a nade at full force).

Fuck you I do this all the time. I mostly agree with your other points though.
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Offline ginn

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 04:30:48 am »
Such as the ridiculously high amount of range you gain in your field of view if you put your cursor at the far edge of the screen. Which makes any movement that require you to face backward a big disadvantage. For example flips, cannon balls, prone cancels, ...
I think the vision advantage is fair though, as you still need to have some form of advantage when you're defending, because otherwise flag stand offs will become too usual (because nobody manages to defend). On some maps it can be difficult to defend, because your possiblities for positioning are limited, which lets the rusher get too close and can nade you (generally you go for height advantage while defending, so you insta die from nades (can better block bullets with environment, because bullet have an arc, and you're aiming to make a like 15-20% damage difference)).

But the speed to the bullet thing I don't think is fair... because that's like a "hard coded" disadvantage instead of a disadvantage that comes from doing what you're doing. The reload of weapon and fire interval should I think continue to reload while you're moving though.

Fuck you I do this all the time. I mostly agree with your other points though.
It wouldn't be a huge change actually, but in some situations people would be able to run past you.
If somebody is horizontally running past you they might avoid damage, but if they're going past you from above they'll still be at the nade once it can be triggered, as the time it takes to fully load a nade isn't that long.

Offline 15th_account

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 05:31:02 pm »
Right now weapons are at it's most unintuitive, as there's 50% inheritance (there's no arguing this, 100% is completely intuitive, and 0% is also intuitive). Not only does it make aiming bad [...]
"Most unintuitive" would be zero inheritance (like prior to version 1.2.0, or the current knife) ...or hell, negative values. =)

As I was derping around when the InheritedVelocity attribute was added, I found 100% felt goofy due to all bullet speeds in the game being so low. That my character could vastly increase or decrease an M79 or MP5 bullet's range just by mildly shifting his weight around seemed really bizarre. So I find that the halved velocity inheritance compensates for my character being able to run at a decent fraction of the bullets' speed. It's a sort of rough sweet spot for being able to convey relative velocities and still have visible bullets. Though 50% is just a round number chosen by MM years ago. Maybe the optimal would actually be, say, 62%?

100% works better for nades though because they're thrown at a speed and range that looks somewhat realistic.

[...] but it also punishes people who move fast or rushes, because you'll only add 50% of your movement speed to damage your opponent, but the opponent does 100% extra damage to you (so say when you rush you do 50 damage, your opponent would do 60 damage).
No. The damage formula is indifferent to the victim's velocity. All that matters is the bullet's damage value and absolute speed when it hits, as well as the hitbox (head/torso/legs). This is of course neither realistic nor intuitive, but it promotes offensive gameplay.

There's also a movement speed cap, where you cease to do any damage at all, very noticeable with spas. If you run too fast you'll stop doing damage, so your weapon become completely harmless, which is pretty dumb as you'd think spas was intended for rushing.
I have no idea what you mean by this. If the weapon doesn't deal any damage at all then it's a bug. Though I'm probably misunderstanding, so please elaborate for me.

Nades need to have a timer from when you start holding nade to the time they can explode, so people can't just tap nade and have it explode directly (makes chainsaw quite pointless, and is just generally not fun). Not paying attention should actually be punished, so in this case it wouldn't reg until x amount of time has passed (like the time to throw a nade at full force).
I kinda agree. Maybe there should also be a specific sound effect when a nade passes through an enemy so you get some feedback that you've shit the bed.

Bulletspread is completely random, which makes the game highly luck based, there's no way to control it. If you want to avoid spray then add the bink mechanic in again, because that is at least skill based (as you could avoid the bink), or make it similar to the old mp5 spread, where it was predictable.
The spread being random is by design. If you want the spread to be predictable then there would be no point in having the spread at all, other than being a general nuisance and arbitrary skill barrier. If the weapon's spread is becoming a problem then you're probably fighting at a range further than it's intended to be effective at. Try a more accurate auto, Ruger or Deagles instead if you like fighting at that range. =)

Offline BKT

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 11:47:26 pm »
About nades— I find it amusing that nobody seem to have any problem about the fact that you can simultaneously throw (or worst, spam) nades and pulling/holding the trigger...  [retard]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 11:49:22 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline Blacksheepboy

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 01:15:38 am »
Huh, has much changed since ~1.4?

Offline 15th_account

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 05:52:22 pm »
About nades— I find it amusing that nobody seem to have any problem about the fact that you can simultaneously throw (or worst, spam) nades and pulling/holding the trigger...  [retard]

I can't even imagine seeing Arnold or Stallone using both hands to pull out a grenade pin like some schmuck. At most they'd use their teeth to pull out grenade pins while one-handing their weapon.

In fact, Arnold seems to just attach his grenades by their pins in order to immediately throw them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix3EEipwRJk&t=3m28s (3:28)

Offline BKT

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 03:43:48 pm »
I can't even imagine seeing Arnold or Stallone using both hands to pull out a grenade pin like some schmuck. At most they'd use their teeth to pull out grenade pins while one-handing their weapon.

In fact, Arnold seems to just attach his grenades by their pins in order to immediately throw them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix3EEipwRJk&t=3m28s (3:28)

He doesn't hold the trigger while doing so, though.  :P
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline ginn

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Re: Fix the basics of the game
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 11:27:29 pm »
"Most unintuitive" would be zero inheritance (like prior to version 1.2.0, or the current knife) ...or hell, negative values. =)

Though 50% is just a round number chosen by MM years ago. Maybe the optimal would actually be, say, 62%?
0% is intuative, it goes where you aim, no matter how fast you move. Q3 uses 0% inheritance, and it works fine. The only game I can think of that uses 50% inheritance is tribes, and that game is so terribly awkward to aim in.
Soldats don't move quite at the same speed as you do in tribes, but it's still unintiative... I think a 100% would make it good, or maybe 0%, or a mix (100% for spas for example). It's not a super huge issue, but I don't think it'd hurt to make it 100%.

No. The damage formula is indifferent to the victim's velocity. All that matters is the bullet's damage value and absolute speed when it hits, as well as the hitbox (head/torso/legs). This is of course neither realistic nor intuitive, but it promotes offensive gameplay.
Are you sure about that? When I'm running I die really fast if somebody is shooting at me.

I have no idea what you mean by this. If the weapon doesn't deal any damage at all then it's a bug. Though I'm probably misunderstanding, so please elaborate for me.
I'm not sure if it's because of bad hit reg, but it's at least reproducible in a couple of versions back. One good place to do it is on blade, you can either just glide on the bottom past somebody and shoot, the person you're shooting won't take any damage, and I don't think they'll see the bullets either.
I think the same thing happens when you run fast, at least what I've noticed, the first shot rarely deals any damage... But spas has pretty terrible reg, so it might just be that, as it's pretty normal to need 3-4 hits in point blank to kill.

The spread being random is by design. If you want the spread to be predictable then there would be no point in having the spread at all, other than being a general nuisance and arbitrary skill barrier. If the weapon's spread is becoming a problem then you're probably fighting at a range further than it's intended to be effective at. Try a more accurate auto, Ruger or Deagles instead if you like fighting at that range. =)
CS has that spread though, it's still a skill you'd have to learn... I don't see why it'd have to be random, it'd still be somewhat difficult to remember the spread (would probably have to be based on bullet number, so you can't abuse just taping fire key really fast). Ruger is also fairly pointless because of the movement acc, it's a lot down to luck, as it kicks in just by you not being stationery on the ground (or maybe it's the spread, don't know). DE I think has a reg issue, or at least they feel weird to use, maybe it's the 50% inheritance thing.