Author Topic: Supine position  (Read 11139 times)

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Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2015, 03:03:53 pm »
Akinaro, if Soldat existed without prone, you're the type of person that would still say "who care about prone if few people want this?" if someone suggested that we add prone position.

I especially find it hypocritical, and almost laughable, of you that you complain in other threads that newer maps aren't added as defaults to the game, when you're so against newer movements.

@DC, no it's not a discussion of whether it can be added.
It can definitely be added; I mean, I only dabbled with coding and I know how to script, but even I know that much is certain.
TheOne and Akinaro are simply trying to dismiss it as needing "too much time/work" and "not a priority", as if they're the authority on what makes something a priority.

And, maybe it's just me, but I don't think I need to literally ask a developer if they are able to put it in, when it's already been posted in the Game Improvements/Suggestions section of the forum and they've already seen it (and one has commented).
If it couldn't be done (which, again, it can, since the functionality is 100% like prone), they would have said so and nipped it in the bud.

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2015, 03:12:05 pm »
Wouldn't the prone cancel vial looking back be affected by this move?
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Offline TheOne

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2015, 03:33:07 pm »
I'm sorry, you seem to have taken this personal, but I didn't intend to dismiss your suggestion. I know that it feels bad if you think about a nice addon to the game and it is not being supported.
You need to allow others to post their opinion, though. If you create a suggestion post you can expect people to express their opinion about it, even if they're not responsible about deciding. That's the point of a forum.

In this case, I wasn't even posting my own opinion on whether it suited the game or not. I just felt that this sentence of you was a little short-sighted:
There's literally no reason to not add this, aside from fear of changing the status quo.

and wanted to point out that there was more to be considered than whether it's a nice thing to have or not. Many people who are not experienced in programming (or specifically in soldat code) underestimate/misjudge the effort necessary to implement certain things. To bring that point into discussion, I told how I judge the effort needed to implement this, and how I perceive the current attitude of the developers (I might be wrong there and feel free to correct me), and combined them to what I think would be the expectable decision.

Maybe the way I wrote it was not very friendly. It must have sounded discouraging.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 03:35:36 pm by TheOne »

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2015, 03:34:39 pm »
Wouldn't the prone cancel vial looking back be affected by this move?
Yes, it would. Since you're flipping the direction in which the player would be shooting, you'd also need to flip the direction of the prone cancel to the other side (but, in terms of how it would look, it would still cancel when the player looks behind him).

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2015, 03:43:05 pm »
I'm sorry, you seem to have taken this personal, but I didn't intend to dismiss your suggestion. I know that it feels bad if you think about a nice addon to the game and it is not being supported.
You need to allow others to post their opinion, though. If you create a suggestion post you can expect people to express their opinion about it, even if they're not responsible about deciding. That's the point of a forum.

In this case, I wasn't even posting my own opinion on whether it suited the game or not. I just felt that this sentence of you was a little short-sighted:
There's literally no reason to not add this, aside from fear of changing the status quo.

and wanted to point out that there was more to be considered than whether it's a nice thing to have or not. Many people who are not experienced in programming (or specifically in soldat code) underestimate/misjudge the effort necessary to implement certain things. To bring that point into discussion, I told how I judge the effort needed to implement this, and how I perceive the current attitude of the developers (I might be wrong there and feel free to correct me), and combined them to what I think would be the expectable decision.

Maybe the way I wrote it was not very friendly. It must have sounded discouraging.
Oh, you're free to post your opinion, TheOne; I welcome it. Just don't post something as fact when it is merely your opinion.

And how can you claim that you "didn't intend to dismiss the suggestion" when these were your first sentences:
With infinite ressources you might be right. However, developer number and time is limited, so priorities need to be set.

Offline TheOne

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2015, 04:37:31 pm »
Well this suggestion post shouldn't end in a discussion about who-said-what, but I find it really curious how we can misunderstand each other that much :D. It wasn't meant to dismiss your idea, but to point out that probably you have to prepare yourself for a longer wait before this gets implemented.
I also tried to express it as an opinion and not as a fact (indicated by I believe, I think, seem like, I suppose). The only sentence that comes close to stating a fact was this:
Quote
Adding this feature isn't as easy as you might think, it would surely take the devs several weeks to implement the new position including controls, network code, possibly scriptcore support, testing, and probably 2-3 alpha versions to fix the bugs.

which isn't an opinion but an estimation from my personal experience :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 04:39:37 pm by TheOne »

Offline Akinaro

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 03:59:08 am »
I especially find it hypocritical, and almost laughable, of you that you complain in other threads that newer maps aren't added as defaults to the game, when you're so against newer movements.


Cool story bro but its like comparing fire to water :]

Get your mind together before you start this. Maps are totally different thing that adding movement that is literally not needed.

For now you are actually only person that want it so much. Rest of people actually care to thing about how it affect gameplay and they realize that its not your "30min work"

Its more laughable that YOU just dont get overall idea of putting such move to game, and you are so mad about it that instead of slowing down and thinking about it you still force this idea like some mad psychopath.

Offline Izzy Rose (PL)

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2015, 09:32:39 am »
And another great and important topic, which is destroyed by stupid people who get everything so serious, that the want make personal wars between each other rather than TALKING ABOUT THE ESSENCE OF THE TOPIC!!!!!!!!111oneone
--------------------

I think that supine position would be very interesting and would put a fresh air into the gameplay, giving it new options of playing style.
For eg. some players like running with, i dunno, MP5 + knife, and they pick up thrown knife every time after throwing it. Other people take LAW and throw it away to pick up a random primary weapon from ground to have an all-round weaponry at the time.

New moves would force players to change their habits, look fresh on their moves, train some new, maybe unique manners.
We have chainsaw kamikazes, barret/knife assasins, mp5 sprayrunners... every type of the player use different moves, I think it shoud be good thing to give the beaten styles some new options to rebuild or build up them.

For last years the main problem of balancing the gameplay was the discussion about balancing weapons to make them equally lethal, coaxing players to use different weapons - not only M79 or Barret, which were purely dominating about 1.4.2, if my memory is well. It wasn't the only way to make gameplay styles range more vast.
Look at some FPS games like Warrock or Borderlands-series (i can't remind any other adequate examples) - there are some classes of characters, which force players to play in a specific way.
In Warrock - character's class + gun + available vehicles on map
in Borderlands - chacter's class + weapons and shields rig + skills tree build + players style

I won't describe these mechanisms for LOL or DOTA because I don't play them too much (i'n the noobest noob) and I haven't enough knowledge about their gameplay to not make a fool of myself.

It make these games exotic - you watch some gameplay on YT and think "hey, this guy plays in different and slightly interesting style". There's small chance to reach this effect in Soldat gameplays, because of small range of factors which would affect players style. This state of the matter driven Soldat's gameplay reality to the one right.

There's a not too long list of moves, which you can perform. If you will not learn them, you will be deficient player which is worse than other, more teached ones.

The above right makes Soldat more difficult for newbies, which cause the known rejection of the whole game. "It is difficult, not well looking and with kinda hermetic society. This game doesn't offer me any good reason to play it."


Really, consider implementation of new positions/moves like supine position. It would give the gameplay more complexity in the positive way.
I don't think that I'm infallible, but I see some good perspectives which can make Soldat a more attractive game.
Trust me, I'm (not Soldat) game developer.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 09:42:47 am by Izzy Rose (PL) »
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Offline Ratman

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2015, 11:26:59 pm »
I dont see the point of having a "game suggestions" subforum if every idea is just going to get shot down like this one. Both Akinaro and %% bring good points but ideas should at the very least be acknowledged by devs, especially ones that aren't stupid.

Sure it isn't a priority but if you want priority only then you should consider renaming the subforum "priority only suggestions".

Personally I think the idea is a cool one, but you would need to think about gameplay. Yes, %% it makes sense to not fear change but big changes like this could very well bury this game. I can already imagine people annoyingly bitch about this being broken, or unfair, especially since it seems to give retreating players the advantage, which goes against game philosophy for the most part.

Having said that, the whole point of this forum should be to discuss how this could affect gameplay. One party cannot just suggest something and expect it to be implemented because of a couple supporters and the other cannot shut down the conversation because it he/she thinks it isnt priority. Discuss how it could affect gameplay, thats the whole point of a forum, to discuss.

At the very least, itll encourage others to read and join. If you come to a conclusion and agree the idea would be a good one, atleast it would make the devs final decision (on whether or not to implement it) easier since they have arguments from both sides to read.

Having said that, Ill begin a proper discussion of how this could affect gameplay with what Ive kind of said already:

I would think this action would give retreating players more flexibility since they could now shoot and run while running. I would personally think that to be a negative thing. However, using this in short spurts on the ground to dodge shots (from above) might be pretty cool. Also what shoozza said about it affecting prone/cancel would be a big problem (since that is a big part of movement right now).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 11:37:49 pm by Ratman »

Offline smiluu

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2015, 11:08:01 am »
I don't think it's logical to add a supine animation. Prone in air is just a side effect of the prone feature in it self, which has other uses like crawling on ground and sliding on ice. Would supine also be used same way (would it look good?) or would it just be an airborne movement? Also, what determines which position you go to - which direction key you press or which direction you're moving to? Can you turn from supine to prone and vice versa via switching sides with mouse or are they treated as separate features so the prone cancel technique won't get canned? It's a very hazy suggestion and it's not just a matter of being a low priority feature, it's also a low value feature. It sounds like it gives less than what it takes. If majority of people "lack the imagination" to see it's good sides as a feature, it's likely that it genuinely doesn't have any.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2015, 04:27:15 pm »
I don't think it's logical to add a supine animation. Prone in air is just a side effect of the prone feature in it self, which has other uses like crawling on ground and sliding on ice. Would supine also be used same way (would it look good?) or would it just be an airborne movement? On the ground, it would be used the same way, except, aesthetically, your sprite would be on its back and looking/aiming towards its toes. The effective and unique change to the game would be in airborne movement.
Also, what determines which position you go to - which direction key you press or which direction you're moving to? This has been mentioned; the default key of 'c' would make you supine, just like 'x' makes you prone.
Can you turn from supine to prone and vice versa via switching sides with mouse or are they treated as separate features so the prone cancel technique won't get canned? You should be able to simply press 'c' to directly go to supine position from a prone, and looking backwards would cancel it just like it does for prone.
It's a very hazy suggestion and it's not just a matter of being a low priority feature, it's also a low value feature. It sounds like it gives less than what it takes. If majority of people "lack the imagination" to see it's good sides as a feature, it's likely that it genuinely doesn't have any. It's not a hazy suggestion at all; what part of "it works just like prone does" is so confusing for you? The only difference is that you're on your back looking up, and, if you have momentum or are jetting, moving the other direction.
I feel like you didn't really understand the concept at first glance, smiluu; hopefully, my explanation was clear and you'll give a more comprehensive opinion after giving it some thought, realizing it's not a low-priority, low-value feature.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2015, 02:06:27 pm »
i don't like the idea as i think soldat's movement system is in a great state right now. not too complex, not too simple either.

and looking backwards would cancel it just like it does for prone.

how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then? i thought it was one of the main points here.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 02:07:59 pm by Dusty »

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2015, 05:11:37 pm »
how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then? i thought it was one of the main points here.
Refer to the picture in the OP.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2015, 08:00:39 am »
"looking backwards would cancel it"

if that's not looking backwards then i don't know what is but i'm just going to assume you made a mistake in your wording.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2015, 11:45:16 pm »
"looking backwards would cancel it"

if that's not looking backwards then i don't know what is but i'm just going to assume you made a mistake in your wording.
You shouldn't just assume things, man. I didn't make a mistake in my wording; you made a mistake in your wording/comprehension when you said "how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then?".

You're not shooting "backwards", per se. You're facing (and shooting) the enemies you're retreating from. Facing forwards and moving backwards (if you're in the air, jetting).

Refer to this image:


Now, if the pictured person was a Soldat sprite and you were to move the mouse and turn his neck so he looks behind himself (i.e. the "backwards" triangle), supine position would cancel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Offline BKT

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2016, 03:21:17 pm »
In mid-air firefight, retreating player already have vast advantage over the persuing attacker as it is, even with the mid-air proning. This, I hope, I don't have to explains why that is...

Giving the ability for retreating player to stick his feet out in the line of fire to cover the more vulnerable head and body while simultaneously gaining speed and return fire as well? ...  ::)

Another thing: In the case of mid-air prone it make sense. But how would you shoot DOWNWARD on people below you in mid-air while doing this move anyway? You can't even look down at them properly with this posture, let alone shooting them with anything but a pistol!  :P
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2016, 03:13:48 am »
In mid-air firefight, retreating player already have vast advantage over the persuing attacker as it is, even with the mid-air proning. This, I hope, I don't have to explains why that is...

Giving the ability for retreating player to stick his feet out in the line of fire to cover the more vulnerable head and body while simultaneously gaining speed and return fire as well? ...  ::)
No, please do explain how, currently, a player retreating has a vast advantage over his pursuer (even though it's a red herring).
More to the point, we won't know whether it's a good addition until it's added and alpha/beta tested. I'd, at the very least, reserve my judgement until then; it may shake up the gameplay positively or negatively, or maybe it won't change much and will just be different. Who knows. 

Another thing: In the case of mid-air prone it make sense. But how would you shoot DOWNWARD on people below you in mid-air while doing this move anyway? You can't even look down at them properly with this posture, let alone shooting them with anything but a pistol!  :P
Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works, but I'd probably add a randomizer so it chooses one side at random just to switch things up, which would also serve in creating a sense of relative distance between the shooter and his target (just like how when one sprite walks over another, one goes in front of the other). As Soldat is 2D, you won't see the majority of the gun if it's held on the 'far' side, since it's blocked by the sprite's torso.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 03:22:34 am by %%%%%%% »

Offline BKT

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2016, 08:19:24 am »
No, please do explain how, currently, a player retreating has a vast advantage over his pursuer (even though it's a red herring)

No point explaining it then. Good, I kinda lazy too!  ;D

Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works

This would involve turning parts of your body/weapon toward or away from the screen; this seem like something that can't be done without it being look incredibly weird since everything is limited to 2d.

Though I doubt that would convince you to change your mind, so bleh  :P
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2016, 05:37:33 pm »
Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works
This would involve turning parts of your body/weapon toward or away from the screen; this seem like something that can't be done without it being look incredibly weird since everything is limited to 2d.
Never mind that, it's not even necessary; we can just use the current graphic for aiming down when you're standing/crouching. The only difference would be that the sprite would be in a crunch position.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 05:39:08 pm by %%%%%%% »

Offline BKT

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Re: Supine position
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2016, 09:49:26 pm »
Never mind that, it's not even necessary; we can just use the current graphic for aiming down when you're standing/crouching. The only difference would be that the sprite would be in a crunch position.

Of course you CAN always ignore all the pesky details and just do that, and it will work, just look really weird and make no sense  :P


Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 09:54:26 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...