Author Topic: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!  (Read 31193 times)

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Offline urraka

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2016, 10:11:14 am »
To be honest changing only graphic to higher res just gonna show weird/bad alignment of parts(like on Monsteri Graphic) Weird looking torso that look like apron, mutated legs that are a bit too big and dont fit to torso so in one way its look like gostek have huge ass. Hands that are too big, and head that look like zombie, and on top of that weapon that move like chaotic demon and dont care to fit to gostek...

So in one way its good that gostek is remade, but in other way, to make it look good, and not like some mutant that run with gun, Soldat would just need new model system... and we all know that for now its not possible.

I've been working on a gostek renderer rewrite to hopefully fix the alignment issues. It's still not finished but you can take a look here: http://urraka.github.io/soldat-gostek/

Idea is to find the right cx,cy values for each different part on both, the old gostek (which would become the default so old mods keep working) and the new gostek (whatever that will be). Then we would have some file with all these values so mods can nitpick on alignment aswell.

Also gotta find the correct drawing order.
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Offline Akinaro

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2016, 11:19:02 am »
This back compatibility gonna be pain in the a$$.
Like with any other project there is always 1-10% player group that would rather block any changes than make game better/fix it, because (typical quote) "We play it longer than any of you, and you destroy our game, F new players, its our game"

Taking in t the account current average number of active player that I see every day(20-50) we could easily dumb all old mods, because no one use it anyway, and if someone use it just  request remake, or move your arse and made it by yourself. Make it better and with new possibilities.

As far as core of gameplay is intact and look of game is better and better no one should even dare to block new/better ideas for game, this lack of players is actually good time to remade all old and weird ideas. Starting from Interface system that is annoying t make and fit, to gostek that also is annoying and with bigger res graphic gonna be just weird looking.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 11:24:00 am by Akinaro »

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2016, 12:02:15 pm »
Akinaro is right, there is no need at all to keep old mods working with the gosteks. Instead make the new system as good as possible, new mods will be made and nobody cares about old mods that only got ultra low resolution anyway. And there would still be the option to make new mods that are up to date.

And the one question that I find extremely important @PerroAZUL: Can you implement a system that allows a modder to place custom weapons / clips and so on in relation to the gostek by himself? Because this has always limitated weapons gfx modding in a very bad way and was the reason many things were not possible and still aren't.

Offline urraka

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2016, 12:20:23 pm »
And the one question that I find extremely important @PerroAZUL: Can you implement a system that allows a modder to place custom weapons / clips and so on in relation to the gostek by himself? Because this has always limitated weapons gfx modding in a very bad way and was the reason many things were not possible and still aren't.

With the tool I linked you will be able to tweak the cx,cy value of each weapon. It's basically the anchor point of the image in some kind of percentage value. So (0,0) means top-left, (1,1) means bottom-right, (0.5,0.5) would mean center. That anchor point will match the skeleton point where weapon is hooked (point 16). I might add some dragging behaviour to make it easier later, for now you have to edit the numbers manually. All this stuff will end up in some file that you save in your mod.
urraka

Offline soldat-game

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2016, 12:31:40 pm »
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 01:10:29 pm by soldat-game »

Offline BKT

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2016, 01:19:09 pm »
HELPPPPPP!!! :(

I got the exact same problem.  :|

I hope I don't need to get a new pc to run soldat, a decade old game that work fine (with smooth, solid 60fps*) for my shitty pc up till now, when 1.7 come out...




** You MUST do some crazy tinkering with the graphic setting in order to get this though; for instance, I need to set my fps limit to exactly 64, backbuffer 1, and high-res timer for the game to run smoothly in fullscreen... Also, settings that ran smoothly in one pc may not work in another pc.
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2016, 01:23:59 pm »
And the one question that I find extremely important @PerroAZUL: Can you implement a system that allows a modder to place custom weapons / clips and so on in relation to the gostek by himself? Because this has always limitated weapons gfx modding in a very bad way and was the reason many things were not possible and still aren't.

With the tool I linked you will be able to tweak the cx,cy value of each weapon. It's basically the anchor point of the image in some kind of percentage value. So (0,0) means top-left, (1,1) means bottom-right, (0.5,0.5) would mean center. That anchor point will match the skeleton point where weapon is hooked (point 16). I might add some dragging behaviour to make it easier later, for now you have to edit the numbers manually. All this stuff will end up in some file that you save in your mod.

Works pretty great in the gostek tool. This and 4k res will make modding weapons much more fun than before.

Offline urraka

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2016, 03:42:46 pm »
HELPPPPPP!!! :(

I got the exact same problem.  :|

I hope I don't need to get a new pc to run soldat, a decade old game that work fine (with smooth, solid 60fps*) for my shitty pc up till now, when 1.7 come out...




** You MUST do some crazy tinkering with the graphic setting in order to get this though; for instance, I need to set my fps limit to exactly 64, backbuffer 1, and high-res timer for the game to run smoothly in fullscreen... Also, settings that ran smoothly in one pc may not work in another pc.

I think the problem awe had there is related to framebuffers not being supported by the OpenGL dirver. We don't really need framebuffers but at some point I added something that triggers that error. This will be fixed so don't panic!
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2016, 10:22:26 am »
If you don't change the gostek you'll end up with a blurry mess that kind of resembles a human being, which looks out of place now that other graphics are being brought to high-res, and since urraka/PerroAZUL is working on rewriting the sprite alignment, it's a great time to create some higher-res sprites. I will stay as true to Soldat's visual style as possible while trying to bring a bit more detail and better body proportions. In any case, we'll end up with something better than we had for modern systems. Don't really care if people who still play on 4:3 CRTs see nothing wrong with the current graphics.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 10:24:31 am by Monsteri »
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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2016, 11:16:01 am »
Even my old 4:3 CRT back in 2006 could manage a resolution of 1280x1024? Or similar. Current graphics are from 1990. It's a great thing that you finally want to make a big and long needed step up in graphics quality.

Someone showed a system where you could put shaders and dynamic lights in 2D sprite environments like Soldat. I think that would be fantastic too, but yes I understand that would be a very difficult task. I just wanted to bring it up.

It is a bit sad that a game with such a great gameplay is played by 20-60 people at a time, having only 1 CTF server populated usually. Just because everything in this game looks and is so old (not only the graphics).

Offline Akinaro

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2016, 12:07:52 pm »
Beside look of Soldat reason why its where it is, are lack of overall advertising(especially different game modes like climb that should be default)  and... devs.

Yes, I know that you here for free, and soldat is really hard to work with, but MM and all old devs member had looooots of time to slowly start remading soldat and open eyes to reality of multiplayer games and what new players want and need to keep playing.
But all we got for past years are soldat versions that instead of gather more new players, wanted to keep old players happy and not touching anything that need remade, because they would scream that you ruin game...
And now I hope you see that even if they shouted like butchered animal "Dont touch this!" "Dont touch that!" They left too, because they get bored...

You can like that opinion or not, but that is reality. What we have now with 1.7 should be done 4-6 years ago, but no one touched even most simple thing to remade(maps, weapon graphic) because "old player base didnt want changes".
And those changes in maps didnt need any code changes, players spend more than 90% of time on maps and that what should be always up to date, you dont even need to change overall map structure...
Looking at some old maps even with low quality graphic most of those maps look amazing and could fight with any modern game.



Even if you doing what you can now, and you making good job with 1.7 its just a bit too late for that, and even if you manage to fix most of soldat backstage bugs, you would need really good advertising and PR(Public relations) to at least get payer base similar to 2 years ago(more than 50 players). Because taking in to the account massive amount of casual/indie games and players "whims" Soldat would need miracle to go up again.

I know its a bit offensive boner killer, but we should not bend spacetime just because few of old players like old Soldat and we all need to pretend that everything is all right. Its not.

Offline Monsteri

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2016, 05:10:23 pm »
Beside look of Soldat reason why its where it is, are lack of overall advertising(especially different game modes like climb that should be default)  and... devs.

Yes, I know that you here for free, and soldat is really hard to work with, but MM and all old devs member had looooots of time to slowly start remading soldat and open eyes to reality of multiplayer games and what new players want and need to keep playing.
But all we got for past years are soldat versions that instead of gather more new players, wanted to keep old players happy and not touching anything that need remade, because they would scream that you ruin game...
And now I hope you see that even if they shouted like butchered animal "Dont touch this!" "Dont touch that!" They left too, because they get bored...

You can like that opinion or not, but that is reality. What we have now with 1.7 should be done 4-6 years ago, but no one touched even most simple thing to remade(maps, weapon graphic) because "old player base didnt want changes".
And those changes in maps didnt need any code changes, players spend more than 90% of time on maps and that what should be always up to date, you dont even need to change overall map structure...
Looking at some old maps even with low quality graphic most of those maps look amazing and could fight with any modern game.



Even if you doing what you can now, and you making good job with 1.7 its just a bit too late for that, and even if you manage to fix most of soldat backstage bugs, you would need really good advertising and PR(Public relations) to at least get payer base similar to 2 years ago(more than 50 players). Because taking in to the account massive amount of casual/indie games and players "whims" Soldat would need miracle to go up again.

I know its a bit offensive boner killer, but we should not bend spacetime just because few of old players like old Soldat and we all need to pretend that everything is all right. Its not.
ITT: Hindsight 20/20. It's easy to tell all this after the fact.

I know where you're coming from with the argument of giving no fucks about backwards compatibility, but the thing is, it's like you said: it's gonna take a miracle to get Soldat truly popular again. What I think 1.7 should be about is restoring the game to such a condition that it "just werks" and does not look god-ugly on high resolutions like it does now. The game will die a natural death soon enough, (15 years on the run ain't bad) and for the time it lives we SHOULD have backwards compatibility with mods, maps, etc. 1.7 will be like a morphine shot; extended life support with the end being happy, fun times despite the inevitable death. Some dedicated groups will probably keep playing the game for years on end, but the public servers will die. This update will make sure those groups keep on playing until they get bored (or die), not until they get frustrated and leave (which would be much sooner).

Soldat 2 should be for sparking new interest and creating a fresh playerbase.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline CCalp

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2016, 05:57:45 pm »
I don't see things as pessimistically (realistically?) as you guys. I think 1.7 (if made properly and without any new huge bugs like the lagspike introduced with 1.6.9) might become a huge chance to "get player base similar to 2 years ago(more than 50 players)." We probably won't have the activity we had in ~2011 ever again, but a few old players (and maybe some new as well) will surely come back with 1.7 imho...

I am really looking forward to 1.7 final release - and I hope it will be soon! (underlining to emphasize important stuff :3)

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2016, 09:32:08 pm »
Beside look of Soldat reason why its where it is, are lack of overall advertising(especially different game modes like climb that should be default)  and... devs.

Yes, I know that you here for free, and soldat is really hard to work with, but MM and all old devs member had looooots of time to slowly start remading soldat and open eyes to reality of multiplayer games and what new players want and need to keep playing.
But all we got for past years are soldat versions that instead of gather more new players, wanted to keep old players happy and not touching anything that need remade, because they would scream that you ruin game...
And now I hope you see that even if they shouted like butchered animal "Dont touch this!" "Dont touch that!" They left too, because they get bored...

You can like that opinion or not, but that is reality. What we have now with 1.7 should be done 4-6 years ago, but no one touched even most simple thing to remade(maps, weapon graphic) because "old player base didnt want changes".
And those changes in maps didnt need any code changes, players spend more than 90% of time on maps and that what should be always up to date, you dont even need to change overall map structure...
Looking at some old maps even with low quality graphic most of those maps look amazing and could fight with any modern game.



Even if you doing what you can now, and you making good job with 1.7 its just a bit too late for that, and even if you manage to fix most of soldat backstage bugs, you would need really good advertising and PR(Public relations) to at least get payer base similar to 2 years ago(more than 50 players). Because taking in to the account massive amount of casual/indie games and players "whims" Soldat would need miracle to go up again.

I know its a bit offensive boner killer, but we should not bend spacetime just because few of old players like old Soldat and we all need to pretend that everything is all right. Its not.
ITT: Hindsight 20/20. It's easy to tell all this after the fact.

I know where you're coming from with the argument of giving no fucks about backwards compatibility, but the thing is, it's like you said: it's gonna take a miracle to get Soldat truly popular again. What I think 1.7 should be about is restoring the game to such a condition that it "just werks" and does not look god-ugly on high resolutions like it does now. The game will die a natural death soon enough, (15 years on the run ain't bad) and for the time it lives we SHOULD have backwards compatibility with mods, maps, etc. 1.7 will be like a morphine shot; extended life support with the end being happy, fun times despite the inevitable death. Some dedicated groups will probably keep playing the game for years on end, but the public servers will die. This update will make sure those groups keep on playing until they get bored (or die), not until they get frustrated and leave (which would be much sooner).

Soldat 2 should be for sparking new interest and creating a fresh playerbase.

There will be Soldat 2?

Offline Akinaro

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2016, 03:32:35 am »
ITT: Hindsight 20/20. It's easy to tell all this after the fact.

I know where you're coming from with the argument of giving no fucks about backwards compatibility, but the thing is, it's like you said: it's gonna take a miracle to get Soldat truly popular again.

[...]

Soldat 2 should be for sparking new interest and creating a fresh playerbase.

No actually, Im not only one that say this ALL THE TIME, feel free to check old post on forum(I actually like that, loots of funny/cool stuff you can find).
But problem with people here is that when you say something that is "not welcome"(read: stuff that you dont want to talk about and pretend that everything is good) Most of you automatically switch to defend mode(pointing out personal stuff) instead of thinking about it.
I have no idea what you mean by "where Im coming from", but if its more important than discuss about Soldat feel free to drill that topic.

But give me one reason why we should keep this small weird and annoying things like interface and gostek backward compatibility instead of making it better? Because you and maybe 5% of people use 10 years old mod and you will be sad that you can use it on new version? So overall, good of majority should be kicked out because good of a few individuals?

And as I said one of easiest way that could refresh soldat would be maps, but for past years no one touch it because old players would scream like babies to not touch it... Players spend on maps most of time, and even without new graphic engine we could have good looking maps that could make this game better.



Also think about what is version two? Soldat is multiplayer game, even small change or more major one like current graphic change could be called Soldat 2 instead of 1.7 Its just a name. Why to play with loots of useless version naming if you could just fix and polish something that already work.

Game doesnt need to die, with good advertising and non closed-minded community like now, it could be one top of the list of 2d games that still, thanks to indie/casual games, are popular.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2016, 05:53:28 am »
I'm with Akinaro on this one.

As far as backwards-compatibility goes, those that want to use older interfaces and mods can edit the outdated ones to make them suitable for the new version of Soldat (like CCalp, Drax, and others have been doing recently).

Soldat doesn't necessarily need to 'die'; it all depends on the advertising and getting it into gaming platforms/forums (i.e. Steam, etc) or gaming conventions. But who's in charge of that?
Who owns the game, is it still MM?

Offline Puure

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2016, 06:04:39 am »
Beside look of Soldat reason why its where it is, are lack of overall advertising(especially different game modes like climb that should be default)  and... devs.

Yes, I know that you here for free, and soldat is really hard to work with, but MM and all old devs member had looooots of time to slowly start remading soldat and open eyes to reality of multiplayer games and what new players want and need to keep playing.
But all we got for past years are soldat versions that instead of gather more new players, wanted to keep old players happy and not touching anything that need remade, because they would scream that you ruin game...
And now I hope you see that even if they shouted like butchered animal "Dont touch this!" "Dont touch that!" They left too, because they get bored...

You can like that opinion or not, but that is reality. What we have now with 1.7 should be done 4-6 years ago, but no one touched even most simple thing to remade(maps, weapon graphic) because "old player base didnt want changes".
And those changes in maps didnt need any code changes, players spend more than 90% of time on maps and that what should be always up to date, you dont even need to change overall map structure...
Looking at some old maps even with low quality graphic most of those maps look amazing and could fight with any modern game.
I agree in 100%. I just want to say, oldschool bitches!

Offline soldat-game

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2016, 07:13:56 am »
But this new graphics the guy, presented above is very ugly.

Offline Monsteri

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2016, 09:34:13 am »
And as I said one of easiest way that could refresh soldat would be maps, but for past years no one touch it because old players would scream like babies to not touch it... Players spend on maps most of time, and even without new graphic engine we could have good looking maps that could make this game better.
Yes, we could have nice looking maps without a new engine. But maps require graphics. Graphics require good artists who are willing to work for free - and good luck with that when they will never see a paycheck nor fame, the only thing they will receive is bitter and illogical contempt by the backwards and tiny community. Stop being so dense - if you really want this to happen, get off your ass and start fucking creating new graphics instead of whining on the forums like a little bitch.

Oh, and have fun realizing how limiting Soldat's mapping tool and graphical engine truly are. To get any sort of good results by modern standards you have to pre-render the entire map and only use invisible polygons for collision. Doing that will take a full-time professional artist a week at least if he is to rework all the assets, like he would if he wants a nice looking map, and yet he is limited to only diffuse textures that have a tendency to get blurred and bleed color, with a .png sprite limit of around 650, if I remember correctly. I hope you realize how obtuse and ignorant you sound.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: SOLDAT 1.7.0b2 beta release ready for testing!
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2016, 12:00:21 pm »
And as I said one of easiest way that could refresh soldat would be maps, but for past years no one touch it because old players would scream like babies to not touch it... Players spend on maps most of time, and even without new graphic engine we could have good looking maps that could make this game better.
Yes, we could have nice looking maps without a new engine. But maps require graphics. Graphics require good artists who are willing to work for free - and good luck with that when they will never see a paycheck nor fame, the only thing they will receive is bitter and illogical contempt by the backwards and tiny community. Stop being so dense - if you really want this to happen, get off your ass and start fucking creating new graphics instead of whining on the forums like a little bitch.

Oh, and have fun realizing how limiting Soldat's mapping tool and graphical engine truly are. To get any sort of good results by modern standards you have to pre-render the entire map and only use invisible polygons for collision. Doing that will take a full-time professional artist a week at least if he is to rework all the assets, like he would if he wants a nice looking map, and yet he is limited to only diffuse textures that have a tendency to get blurred and bleed color, with a .png sprite limit of around 650, if I remember correctly. I hope you realize how obtuse and ignorant you sound.
While you might have a point about creating new graphical content instead of complaining, I hope you realize how obtuse and ignorant you sound. You're directing this to Akinaro, who's created a whole bunch of maps for the game. He's already long realized the limitations of the mapping tools and has even posted about workarounds he's found for some.