Author Topic: I love bush. Do you love bush?  (Read 9638 times)

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Offline L[0ne]R

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I love bush. Do you love bush?
« on: February 20, 2016, 07:38:37 pm »
Silly titles aside, I'm finally getting around remaking those ugly old bush sceneries.
This is what I've made so far and I want your opinion about the art style.


Offline CCalp

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2016, 07:51:50 pm »
I really like it! However, I'm not really what you would call a picky person in terms of graphics, so my feedback won't be much of a use. :q
Just my few cents...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 06:12:58 am by CCalp »

Offline Falcon`

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2016, 10:52:44 pm »
Make that gostek smoke and it looks like pretty illegal picture in most countries.
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Offline duz

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2016, 11:04:54 pm »
Nice work! I like it.
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Offline You Got Served!

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 11:35:45 pm »
Cool stuff looks great keep up the good work!

Though I have to disagree. The old bush sceneries are not ugly but I do like what you've done.

How do you guys refer to shameless constant camping? Many times have I raged because of being killed by a shady bush!

President bush!
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Offline Bistoufly

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2016, 03:37:06 am »
Very nice! It looks pleasing to the eye.


Can you make several versions of it. With different time of day, lighting, season, ... + small variations for each?

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2016, 01:02:47 pm »
Thanks for the feedback so far, glad you like it. :) I'll keep updating my progress here.

Can you make several versions of it. With different time of day, lighting, season, ... + small variations for each?
Definitely not time-of-day or lighting - those kinds of things can already be done by adjusting color and brightness of the scenery. Also it's a good idea to keep lighting relatively uniform, otherwise silhouette of the scenery gets lost. What I will try to do is make different bushes diverse enough to cover more bases, and a bit brighter and less vibrant so they're easier to color. I might include grayscale versions of each if I can think of a good clean naming scheme for them. Maybe "-bw" suffix?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:40:09 pm by L[0ne]R »

Offline Home

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 08:37:47 am »
Looks good so far, I also think sceneries with one color in it (like most vegetation) should be gray anyway, it's a nice idea. It is easier for map makers and allows easier diversity in coloring. Maybe add instead versions with different shading.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 12:24:11 pm »
Made another one, and tweaked the shape of the first bush to be less square:


Offline Viral

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 01:13:25 pm »
That's a fine bush you made :b I only hope is not cut straight on the bottom so it's easy to rotate and use on different surfaces :3

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 01:59:24 pm »
That's a fine bush you made :b I only hope is not cut straight on the bottom so it's easy to rotate and use on different surfaces :3
Thanks. At the moment it is cut straight at the bottom, but I get what you mean. I'll try to address that in the final versions without making it look bad on existing maps.

Offline Name

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 07:11:41 am »
Actually it looks good. Well done.

Offline Control

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 09:23:49 am »
Pro bush. :)

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 02:48:38 am »
Nice. Though to be honest sometimes I like em no bush.

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Offline CottonTheMoth

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 02:00:30 am »
That looks freakin' sweet man! I think just to preserve stability in the longterm and avoid server complications it would make more sense to apply these to HD retitled versions of the maps only. Ace work though, it's real perty. Nice use of subtle shading.

Offline machina

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2016, 04:26:34 pm »
Nice work :) I only fear that overdetailed bushes and trees will cause a too great contrast to ground and background textures those are quite simple in the end.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2016, 12:14:31 am »
Nice work :) I only fear that overdetailed bushes and trees will cause a too great contrast to ground and background textures those are quite simple in the end.
Thanks. :) I found that a problem on the old and ugly maps because new sceneries only make their ugliness more noticeable. Outside of that bushes seem to match the maps well enough. I agree that trees are a bit too detailed though and shaded weirdly. That's something I'd like to address at some point too, probably after other non-HD sceneries are finished.


For now, here's a progress update:
I was out of commission for a couple of weeks due to some personal problems, but I finally did some work over the past 3 days. Got rough versions of 5 other bushes remade with 2 more left to go. Once the other two are done I'll go over them again, tweak, add more detail and make them look more consistent.

This is what it looks like so far:


Offline homerofgods

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2016, 05:04:19 am »
Bush number 5 looks to me like it's illuminated in the middle, as if light hits the tree. Anyone else think the same?



Offline machina

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2016, 06:22:59 am »
This is what it looks like so far
There are quite huge differences in details between some of those bushes if you zoom in. First and second surely extremely differ from rest of graphics. The second one is way to rectangular. It's probably something that you have overseen but if you zoom you can see its contour being truncate weirdly. Sixth has a little bit less pixels as well but it will make.

Besides, nice job ;)

Bush number 5 looks to me like it's illuminated in the middle, as if light hits the tree. Anyone else think the same?
Maybe, but not so much in the end.

Offline darDar

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2016, 07:28:30 am »
There are quite huge differences in details between some of those bushes if you zoom in. First and second surely extremely differ from rest of graphics. The second one is way to rectangular. It's probably something that you have overseen but if you zoom you can see its contour being truncate weirdly.

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Got rough versions of 5 other bushes remade with 2 more left to go.
come on

*
I like the cartoonish look of the last one.
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Offline machina

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2016, 10:49:21 am »
come on
I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible in my comments so Loner could make use of it. At least, I hope my posting is helpful. This is this topic's purpose in the end.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2016, 01:08:56 pm »
It is useful, that is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. :) The issues you mentioned are something I'm aware of though - both the weird lighting, some shape issues and inconsistency in the amount of detail. I kept trying different methods of painting to find the most efficient one, which is why they turned out different from each other. I plan to fix at the end though.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2016, 08:09:14 pm »
I was busy/lazy so I only just finished the remaining two bushes. Didn't do any changes to other bushes yet, but that's the next thing on my list.

Offline Viral

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2016, 05:31:09 am »
Very nice bushes :3 I'm quite certain they will fit both more cartoonish and realistic looks, they seem very universal

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2016, 07:14:29 am »
I'm quite certain they will fit both more cartoonish and realistic looks, they seem very universal

Compared to rest of default sceneries? Dont fit that good. They look flat and blurred.




I would rather see more "universal" look.

Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2016, 11:32:39 am »
When they're side by side like that, kinda have to agree with Akinaro

Offline Monsteri

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2016, 12:42:19 pm »
There is only one thing to be done: replace all the sceneries with the same look!
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2016, 01:09:59 pm »
I would vote for stopping making Soldat to look like My Little Pony.

Offline machina

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2016, 01:57:20 pm »
I would vote for stopping making Soldat to look like My Little Pony.
But we need new players so let's target My Little Pony fans! xD

But seriously, some universal assumptions might be necessary for designing graphics for Soldat.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2016, 02:19:37 pm »
They look "flat" on purpose - that's how original sceneries looked, and I found that increasing contrast makes them appear too distracting and out of place. Current uber-realistic tree sceneries clash with everything else and look amateurish in my opinion (with all due respect to daaw and everyone else who made those), mainly because of inconsistent high-contrast shading. I don't recall seeing a single 2D game that uses photo-realistic assets with minimum post-processing AND looks good. Just slapping up some photo cutouts ends up looking like this
 
Either way, these two sceneries they seem to match well enough, no? I know the bush is a bit blurry but again, this is something I plan to address and try to add more detail and sharpness. Other than that I don't see a problem:


Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2016, 03:09:18 pm »
(...)look amateurish(...)


Nice comment on something that actually work and no one have problem with it...

No one is asking for 100% photo realistic look. There is difference between shitty photo look-like graphic and good made one style graphic that fit many style and it can be used in many maps.
If you know what you are doing its really nothing hard to make less candy and more realistic sceneries that at the end product would look excellent. Especially when we take in to the account how most of maps look on Soldat.
There is no real problem to make it, just because of one weird example it doesn't mean that game can't look good with it.

And I hope you realize that if something was made to be flat and boring... It's gonna look like that in game. There is no magic that make it look better in game. Soldat doesn't use shaders and filters and simple coloring make it just uglier.
So instead of having universal graphic that mappers can use, they would be forced to use their own graphic just because one person that made them "had such idea".


After all its game used by loots of people, it's not private testing ground, it would be nice if people would remember to at least try to fit as many taste as possible.
And IF all developers decide to stick to flat cartoon style, as Monsteri said, change rest of graphic or at least say where you going with it.

Offline darDar

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2016, 03:17:21 pm »
**
Your attached image just sums up soldats art issues pretty well. There are 3 things creating the design in soldat
  • textures
  • gfx
  • sceneries
and sadly none of them fits to the other.
This certain cartoonish bush you made goes into the right direction though. Before any work is being done to maps / gfx / textures; what about sitting onto a table with soldat's 'bosses' and find a design you would want to aim for, not even saying that it will be done right now but ppl. would have a guideline.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 03:20:16 pm by darDar »
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2016, 04:13:25 pm »
This certain cartoonish bush you made goes into the right direction though. Before any work is being done to maps / gfx / textures; what about sitting onto a table with soldat's 'bosses' and find a design you would want to aim for, not even saying that it will be done right now but ppl. would have a guideline.
The problem is that "sitting and discussing" is what often prevents us from actually doing things. It's extremely difficult to organize a "meeting" in the first place since everyone's schedule is so different, and not everyone has the time.
Even when we do manage to get together and brainstorm - more potential issues surface which also require discussion, and everyone has a different opinion on what should be done. As a result very little actually gets done.

This is exactly the situation with the new map format - implementing it is relatively easy (from what I heard), but it's forever stuck in the discussion phase. And this is why we don't do much discussion graphics-wise. There's only 3 people working on graphics right now (me, daaw, and Monsteri) and all of us are barely active as it is. Best we can do is just do what feels right (or at least looks close to the original) without worrying about discussions and guidelines too much, otherwise it's too much effort. At least everyone works on a different aspect, which does yield some sort of consistency.

It's not perfect, but the good part is - unlike code, graphics can be tweaked over time relatively easily, so if there's something wrong - it won't be too difficult to fix.

Offline daaw

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2016, 11:23:58 am »
yeah.. yeah..we are terrible at discussing ;D

have you noticed..

Quote
.., which does yield some sort of consistency.
... should be moving in terms of consistency, ..
.. because aside from pace and consistency it has potential ..
.. they just need more consistency/repetition,...
...  why "different" is bad, or why consistency is needed there
.. do you mean consistency?
.. I have nothing wrong against consistency
.. , and there you have consistency.
.. in consistency in the amount of detail.
Consistency just for the sake of consistency..
..instead of "attack/defend" for the sake of consistency, ..
... again, for the sake of consistency.
 Maybe they could use shadows too, for the sake of consistency.


Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2016, 11:25:04 am »
Pretty much, since that's one thing Soldat is lacking in almost every aspect. :D

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2016, 12:11:32 pm »
If you know that you cant make proper discussion, make it on forum.

Simple choose: Cartoonish or more Realistic?
After that another selection:  prepare few examples of most common graphic and eg. map mockup(or modified screenshoot on map): this or this or this style?

When you choose, fallow it with rest of graphic.
No talking, simple choose and suggestion if needed.

Then just check toward what majority is, and its done.
And Im talking about devs and people behind Soldat, not users.
 

Discussion actually is really useless for most of time because people have their own opinion on something and no matter what they always be biased toward it, discussion is just there to shout loud that you like it over something else but you can hide that rest of people dont care about it because they have their own opinion. Some people say that loud that they dont care rest would pretend that their are nice to each other.

Its really simple way, devs gather their balls and make their chooses in this terms, no crying that its need more discussion or "we need more data", its bullshit, there was few good years for talking. Now its just a matter what to fallow. Of course people would be mad that you choose that something that they dont like, but its part of this business, you cant make everyone happy.


Two-three weeks and it should be done.
You all had few good years to make your mind of what you expect from soldat, so its matter of 2-3min to choose/write it, especially if we talk only about one part of game(graphic style).

Offline Monsteri

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2016, 01:36:28 pm »
Cartoony is way easier to produce, so that's the obvious choice.
Sorry if I'm insolent.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2016, 03:18:35 am »
its not easier, its the same amount of work like with any other style. Its all depend on what you are good at, and how much experience you have with specific style. If you just experimenting and you never made such think before it can even take more time.


Now its a matter of making few mockups based on one screenshoot that would contain part of map, sceneries and all other typical graphic.

Its one of most common work with games, creating concepts.
So just prepare few with different style, it should not take you more than 2 weeks(half hour per day) one more "darker" one more pixeleted, one more candy, one more realistic, etc etc.

Then devs just choose their pick and its all gonna be clear without useless talking, as I said you all had few good years to make your mind of what you expect from soldat so its matter of few minutes to pick it.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2016, 11:58:24 am »
I can't be arsed spending 2 weeks making mockups out of which only one may be used. I barely spend an hour every few days on this. These here are mockups of bushes made in one style which IMO works best for Soldat, majority also seems to like where this is going, so I'm gonna stick with it.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2016, 12:21:50 pm »
Sadly this is how this business look like: you making looots of graphic and concepts and just 10% of it would be used.
If you spend some time with it making such mockup is nothing big, and few min per day is always something, and maybe daaw and Monsteri could help?

I know its free work in free time but no one rush anyone, and when you all would know how end product need to look, you would need less work with actuall graphic because you would know what style need to be done, and you dont need to spend more time just to play with graphic that dont fit to the rest.

Offline Denacke

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2016, 09:24:55 am »
I'm a bit bummed to see you receive that much negativity in these last few comments L[0ne]R. I like the work you're doing and it's obviously a big improvement compared to the old bushes. I don't agree with Akinaro that they seem out of place.

Everything can always be improved and I'm sure it one day will, but let's be happy with one step at a time! We're already taking huge leaps right now graphics wise. I for one am glad for what we have and very excited for what comes next. Thanks for all the hard work!

Offline Akinaro

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2016, 09:55:48 am »
Just because you are not agree with someone opinion it doesnt mean its bad and negative.
If you expecting that no matter what you do everyone gonna like it no matter what you show you never gonna make good work

No one said that Loner graphic is bad, quite the opposite to be honest. Because graphic is self is good, but it just doesnt fit 100% to rest of graphic that we have now.

And only negative thing that I personally have to say its time it taking to make it. If you accepted to help with such project, even for free, you had to make time plan for it, and had at least minimum experience with making such thing, and to be honest making just one bush like that should take less than one work hour to make in big resolution for feature use or for selling it for other project(because you can make money from it). But this is my personal opinion and you dont need to stick to it, so keep moving.



Soldat always balance between cartoonish and realistic look, but contrast was alway small so no one cared to much even if it was visible.

But now with bigger resolution this contrast is way more visible so its time to make decision to with side you gonna move soldat.
And as I wrote its really simple way to make that decision but sadly no one care about it even if everyone had almost 100 years to make their own vision of soldat, and now its just a matter of simple vote by devs. Mockups would just make it easier.


Not to mention that when you finally choose, its can be way easier to make other graphic of game because you would know what to make and what to expect, now its guessing who make what and with style, and then its gonna be problem to modify it over and over to fit to rest of game.


So no, its not about Loner graphic but just about deciding what to make with soldat and how this graphic fits to rest of game.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 02:10:51 pm »
We heard your opinion, Akinaro, we get it. No need to repost the same thing every single time someone even slightly disagrees with you.

Offline TheOne

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2016, 08:12:40 am »
I think it's an advantage in Soldat to have both styles, cartoony and realistic, available. Mappers have the freedom to choose the style for their map and gather sceneries which fit it. Consistency in all sceneries made would reduce that variety of map styles that is possible.
The problem Akinaro might see is that in already-made maps some sceneries will now look cartoonish and others more realistic, which won't fit together well. but that's a problem which consistency in remade sceneries won't fix imo, because some maps rely on more realistic-looking sceneries, while others rely on more cartoonish ones; and with consistency in remade sceneries either the one or the other would suffer more. Since one scenery is used in a different context on every map, it can't fit exactly in all of them. Imo the most reasonable thing would be to later remake those maps which started looking too inconsistent, choosing new sceneries which fit together.

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2016, 08:21:58 pm »
Worked a bit on the "tree bush" (bush6) but then decided to take a break from bushes and do the rubble:


Offline Monsteri

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Re: I love bush. Do you love bush?
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2016, 05:41:04 am »
That was supposed to be rubble? I always thought it's grass, so many maps are gonna look wrong now :D
Sorry if I'm insolent.