Author Topic: 1.7.1 WM balance  (Read 28355 times)

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Offline CheeSeMan.

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1.7.1 WM balance
« on: July 13, 2016, 08:03:55 pm »
I thought it was about time to get this started, please lets keep it constructive. I think we had a good thing going in 1.7 so for me we just needed some small tweaks, but I understand with the new hitbox code things will need to be adjusted. I feel there is only 3 guns that need changing but feel free to bring up any others.

AK:

I believe this is now the first gun in Soldat's history to have negative bink, movementacc & bulletspread. Hell its the first auto to have negative bink in a good 5 years. I do not see the point of 1 auto having negative bink, its a throwback to an era of slow Soldat gameplay that is far behind us & just gives it the underhand as it is now much harder to aim than the Steyr or Minimi. Why is anyone going to use it?

I would revert all these changes, if you want AK to be different make it shoot slower with higher damage/push.

Ruger:

The change back to a 2 shot kill feels really good but I think it is slightly overpowered, this may just be due to the hitbox code still being worked on but I would suggest a small amount of bink in the region of 7-10 or raising the movementacc slightly.

Minigun:

Well this gun was broken, I guess giving it a huge amount of movementacc is sort of a solution but it looks look pretty stupid when it shoots on screen. This little bit of push it lost really seems to make surfing go slow now though not really sure if this matters at all. Maybe a better solution would be to leave it as it was but just give it the super long startuptime it had in the past? I think it was 50.

Well folks what are your thoughts?
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Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2016, 01:13:14 am »
Apply bink to all weapons or no weapons.

Maybe apply it to all weapons in realistic mode and no weapons in regular mode, or maybe apply it to all weapons in all modes

The point is: all weapons or no weapons.

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2016, 01:16:56 am »
...  Stop giving out "solutions" when you can't even clearly say what the problem is, and have no idea, nor have enough fucks to actually find out (which isn't hard at all in this case) what, if any, is causing it.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:22:08 am by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline daaw

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2016, 05:33:18 am »
Can't we like.. copy paste WM from 1.4.x or 1.5.x ..as they where more ... approved versions.

Offline homerofgods

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2016, 05:46:13 am »
WM from 1.4 will not play the same on this version. For example, the game has better hit registration than before, which means overall damage is higher in newer versions.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 01:43:12 pm by homerofgods »

Offline daaw

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2016, 06:16:02 am »
Yeah, but still, base it off..like adjust global damage multiplier..

Offline soldat-game

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2016, 08:00:51 am »
See:

And plese change nade hitbox... nade in legs is in real he best solution so you should lie down back.. nade hit in head is 100% dmg in legs 40% dmg  in torso 85%


Offline soldat-game

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2016, 08:06:31 am »
next prone hit box

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2016, 08:42:29 am »
Apply bink to all weapons or no weapons.

Maybe apply it to all weapons in realistic mode and no weapons in regular mode, or maybe apply it to all weapons in all modes

The point is: all weapons or no weapons.

I agree with this, but I am really against returning to negative bink. The Soldat meta has changed, no one wants to hover positions concentrating on their aim, we want to run cannonball prone superman across the map as fast as we can.

...  Stop giving out "solutions" when you can't even clearly say what the problem is, and have no idea, nor have enough fucks to actually find out (which isn't hard at all in this case) what, if any, is causing it.

I think I have been pretty clear on the problems I have with the current WM, there is now no point playing AK over Steyr or Minimi due to it having negative bink. I feel the Ruger is slightly overpowered due to the guaranteed 2 shot kill & could do with having some bink, this is my opinion from playing the game if you feel it is not the case then please let us know without just dropping 3 dots whining.

Can't we like.. copy paste WM from 1.4.x or 1.5.x ..as they where more ... approved versions.

I know we oldies like to fondly remember those times, but no I think if you loaded up a replica of the 142 WM I am not really sure you would like it. Negative bink really has an impact on how you need to play the game to be able to aim correctly, remember movement mechanics have changed since then for example, we now can roll out of prone. Everything has been done to make Soldat's movement more smooth and faster, I believe most of the community these days favours small maps which give quicker intense action and much less about getting into a good position for your aim.

Soldat-game, I am not really sure what you are saying but if it is about the hitbox code well Falcon has pointed out is not finished yet? (I think)
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Offline soldat-game

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2016, 08:51:13 am »
142 150 the best - then on the servers was a variety of weapons. See old weapons statistic from zitro stats.

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2016, 11:47:23 am »
*stuff*

- The negative bink added to AK is just a more major and obvious symptom of the underlying chronic disease it always has— the lack of clear vision of what the gun should be; throughout its history the fireinterval has been change back and forth numerous times, with seemingly arbitrary adjustment to accuracy and dmg for every incarnation of it.

- Stop using WM as a way to fix bugs or whatever shit people feels needed "fixing" — You can headshot people with a ruger (a gun that get the most out of the current situation) by being directly under them a full screen height away and shoot upward at their ass; a massive balance change were made to fix the effects of "better netcode" is already dumb enough as it is, don't add more to it.

- Minigun is stupid partly because people wanted it to be stupid; as long as it still have fireinterval of 3 instead of the original 4, it will remain either stupid, OP, or both, regardless of whatever changes made to other stats.

Also, the 'push' stat do not affects your minigun (and spas) 'surf' speed; the speed lose you felt (which is very minor) is due to lower accuracy.



PS. I like how SOCOM just get 2 more bullets (and a negligible more reload time, which is still lower than it used to be) and nobody seem to give a fuck...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 12:00:57 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2016, 12:43:48 pm »
AK has definitely lost a lot of its usefulness and role in this WM. I always saw it as the best long-range auto that's outclassed up close. Now its accuracy is so poor it's actually got more spread than MP5. Only way to reliably hit a target within 1 screen's distance is to stand still and slowly tap-fire. Basically, depending how you use AK - it's either super slow, or super inaccurate right now.

EDIT: Also why is InheritedVelocity stat the same for all weapons? I feel like this should be different for each weapon, to give some an edge during mobile aggressive play, while giving others a more reliable damage output regardless of moving direction.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:03:26 pm by L[0ne]R »

Offline Falcon`

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2016, 01:18:21 pm »
I feel like InheritedVelocity should be a hardcoded 100% but I guess that's the reason I'm not doing weapon mod.

As for bullet collisions yes, they're not finished. I just wanted to release 1.7.1 ASAP for various reasons, maybe it was a mistake given the current state of bullet physics.
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Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2016, 01:48:07 pm »
Only way to reliably hit a target within 1 screen's distance is to stand still and slowly tap-fire.

Sit/Prone and holding the trigger.

Go try it now.
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2016, 02:43:34 pm »
*stuff*
**Repeats everything stated with seemingly immense disdain & decides nobody cares about socom after 5 posts**

As I stated on the first post BKT, I realize the hitbox code is still being worked on and that WM changes are sort of worthless currently. If you think when the hitbox code works correctly the ruger will be more balanced then that is all you needed to say, no need to construct your posts implying we are all idoits. That being said I do not want to be stuck with this AK in 1.8 because we did not have any discussion about it so the DEVs thought we were all happy, I want to make it clear that I feel returning to the days of negative bink is a bad idea. I feel the AK should be a long-range weapon maybe a higher fire interval with more damage but really I think it was nice how it was in 1.7, it was a nice auto to play on bigger maps which I think is fine.

I advised please bring other guns into the discussion, I just want to get a discussion going here BKT no need to be a jackass. If you think i'm wrong then point it out! But why just say I do not know what am talking about? It seems to me how I "feel" is the same way as yourself just I do not know as much about the WM mechanics. When I saw the socom changes on paper I had your reaction but in-game I have not had much of a chance to experience it so I did not bring it up.

Like I said I was not sure if the minigun boost speed really matter, I think after years of having it at one speed it just feels strange to being going slower even if it is very minor. If it shoots slower with the 1.7 accuracy I still think it will be a broken weapon, from what I remember the hit reg was terrible with the minigun so it never matter then the hit reg was improved and suddenly we had miniguns everywhere. The problem I felt in 1.7 is when someone started shooting the minigun at you it was pretty impossible to aim at them as you were being pushed back, if the startuptime was higher then you would be able to get some shots off before the minigun spray came into play. This is just theorycrafting... but I never remember minigun being an issue when it had 50 startuptime.

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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2016, 05:06:31 pm »
Only way to reliably hit a target within 1 screen's distance is to stand still and slowly tap-fire.

Sit/Prone and holding the trigger.

Go try it now.
That still completely excludes AK from any sort of mobility, which is suicide in any normal mode. Plus we already have Minimi for that purpose.

Offline BKT

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 05:40:03 pm »
It's that 'Minigun is bad cuz of the shitty register' myth so many people blindly believe in that made it became what it is now...

As long as "THE COMMUNITY!!" still have this misguided approach to the game and WM :

Quote
we want to run cannonball prone superman across the map as fast as we can

... good WM will never going to happen; and in the event that it does, it won't be long before it will get fucked over by idiots since nobody fucking cares about an actual good wm or know one when they see it.

I will not participate with this discussion any further or comment on any other WM related topic unless there's some sign of change to the attitude of people in regard to this.

---------

Plus we already have Minimi for that purpose.

Yes, it kinda was— until the brilliant that was 1.7.1 WM went out of its way to make sure that isn't the case anymore by making it worst to do exactly  that...  [retard]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 09:06:52 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline Falcon`

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 06:29:50 pm »
If you hate the current WM so much, you're free to make your own version. If it gains much more support and popularity than the official one, I won't hesitate switching it.
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Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 07:09:24 pm »
Really I do not know why you are being so negative, I do not see why approaching the game with movement in mind is misguided but if that is how you feel then so be it! In any case now we have a new DEV and apparently darDar seems to be doing the WM so imo it is a good chance to open the discussion about the WM.

Soldat is so old there is no point wallowing in the changes of the past, we could get caught up in that for days.

edit: removed my insults, sorry was pissed about what happened in Nice last night... :(
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:55:30 am by CheeSeMan. »
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Offline %%%%%%%

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Re: 1.7.1 WM balance
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 11:09:12 pm »
Falcon, Shoozza promised to fix the following points of illogicality/inconsistency of weapons for "1.6.10". I realize you have no obligation to follow-through with Shoozza's unkept promises but these are, in my opinion, good and necessary changes -- and don't entail getting into specific weapon-based WM changes much.

How about we discuss the fact that no other weapon has bink and how that's completely unrealistic? Every weapon should have bink. I don't care what weapon you're using, if you get shot, you should be temporarily incapacitated. Even if you were to be shot with rubber bullets, you're accuracy is going to temporarily suffer. Granted, weapons with higher velocity/larger shells should incapacitate you more and have a higher bink (if they don't kill you), but it makes absolutely no sense for bink to be zero for any weapon.

1. Fix bink for realistic mode, and regular mode if we're keeping bink (though I strongly encourage that we get rid of bink in regular mode): Add bink to all weapons and make bink times go by the weapon that you get attacked by (and NOT the weapon you're holding), with bigger/heavier weapons giving a longer bink.

2. Make start-up times for all weapons equal.
See quote:
As for Barrett start-up being too short, you've got to be joking. In real life, a sniper rifle is like any other gun: you pull the trigger, the shot is fired -- no delay. The start-up time should be virtually equal for all guns except guns like the minigun/gatling gun that require time for the multiple barrels to revolve.

3a. Remove fire interval when a gun is first picked up. Fire interval should only matter between shots within the same clip. For all weapons, make them reload upon spawning, but not upon picking up if it was dropped while loaded.
See quote:
After dropping Barrett, it requires reloading (not true reloading when clip is empty but fire interval, i.e. downtime between shots), even if it was fully loaded in the first place (which I consider a bug, it doesn't make any logical sense that you need to wait the fire interval for any weapon just because you put it down; for other guns it's a lot less than Barrett since time between shots is very short but it still varies greatly because each weapon has a different fire interval; all weapons, providing they have ammo loaded, should either have no delay after picking up or should all have the same delay after picking up, i.e. the time it takes for you to pull the trigger).
3b. Make Barrett's clip like M79 or LAW's: one round in the chamber (no 10-bullet clip) and make the fire interval the reload time. If fire interval upon pickup is removed (3a.), in regards to the Barrett, one could conceivably just shoot, drop the weapon, pick it up, and shoot again. To fix that, make Barrett's clip like M79 or LAW's: one round in the chamber and make the fire interval the reload time.
(If we were to make it realistic, the Barrett's fire interval would be a lot shorter (basically the same as other guns, because it's a semi-auto, not a bolt action, meaning it doesn't need the quarter-second it takes to grip the bolt handle, dispose of the used shell, and load the next bullet into the chamber) and the full 10-bullet clip would remain, but that'd be too OP.)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 11:11:05 pm by %%%%%%% »