Author Topic: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.  (Read 4720 times)

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Offline Monsteri

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Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« on: September 08, 2016, 02:00:36 pm »
Soldat is long overdue for a culling of the weak when it comes to the amount of default maps. This is a list of DM/TDM/RM maps that I propose we remove for 1.8. All the default maps are going to receive a beauty makeover before then, and there's no way in hell we're doing that to a 100+ maps, so majority of them need to go. The list is preliminary and highly up for debate. Suggestions welcome.

When removing (or perhaps replacing) maps, there's a few key things we're looking at:

1) The diversity of the whole map pool by size. There should be a few small maps, many medium maps and a few large maps.
2) Layout duplicates or near duplicates.
3) Intuitive layout.
4) ..And by extension, removing stupid gimmicky maps.
5) An intriguing theme or a fun layout, preferably both.
6) Preserving the absolute classics.
7) 10-15 maps per mode in total.

The whole Deathmatch/Team Deathmatch/Rambomatch map pool currently:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aero
Airpirates
Arena
Arena2
Arena3
Bigfalls
Blox
Bridge
Bunker
Cambodia
CrackedBoot
Daybreak
DesertWind
Factory
Flashback
HH
Island2k5
Jungle
Krab
Lagrange
Leaf
MrSnowMan
Ratcave
Rok
RR
Shau
Tropiccave
Unlim
Veoto

The maps to be removed:
-------------------------

1) Airpirates
The layout is confusing and doesn't create good gameplay. The map is driven solely by theme, which is not even fitting for Soldat. Bad for new players and boring for experienced players.

2) Arena 3
A boring layout that does create some bloody mayhem, but ultimately other maps of similar size are better executed. (Such as Arena2)

3) Bridge
An uninteresting map with bad movement, theme fails to deliver. Too similar to Tropiccave.

4) CrackedBoot
A poor man's copy of many similar maps, bad movement and bad spacing of action. Daybreak and Bigfalls fulfill the role better.

5) DesertWind
Innovative layout but also frustrating, quite a lot of effectively dead space for a small map.

6) Factory
I'm not entirely sure of this one's removal, but the gameplay feels quite limited and clunky, effectively coming down to who spawns where.

7) Flashback
A less interesting version of Bigfalls.

8) HH
Not terrible, but spaces the players out too much without offering much complexity in 1v1 engagement.

9) Krab
Boring gameplay, too many little tunnels leading practically nowhere.

10) MrSnowMan
Lots of room for horizontal gunfights with a few hotspots and decent movement, but other maps already fill the category.

11) Rok
Forgettable map and ugly layout.

12) Shau
80% of the map is dead space and engagements are always very one-dimensional.

13) Unlim
Not bad, but Veoto is better.

14) Jungle
Not bad either, just nothing special.

Final amount of maps = 15
A few could be removed still.

Maps electable for removal but can be good with tweaks:
-------------------------------------------------------

14) Aero
High-up spawns absolutely need to be removed and verticality limited to 3 screen heights at most. The sides are too empty for higher player counts, but gameplay flows well enough in the middle.

15) Cambodia
A fitting Viet Cong theme, but too much of the map is dead space and there is no good reason to go down to the tunnels. Perhaps remove or tighten outer areas, make the tunnels interconnect more for faster movement, and move a few spawns and most health kits down there.

16) Leaf
Really good layout with 3 somewhat equal parts connecting in the middle, good pacing of gameplay with enough complexity to keep it fresh. Mainly need to rework the leaf shapes and good to go for graphics redo.

17) Tropiccave
Feels really cramped and clunky with too limited engaging distance, mostly due to the long, bullet-colliding pillar. Removing it is simple, but may fuck with TDM balance of the map. This is close to Bridge in layout, fwiw, and replaces it.

That's it for the DM/+ maps. If you found this list offensive, it's time to rev up those keyboards!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:04:26 pm by Monsteri »
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Offline Meteorisch

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 02:11:33 pm »
I'd remove bunker, i mean that map is just an open space ? holy shit good theme right there
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 03:02:58 pm »
It's a good map for newbs, same as Lagrange. True, quite simple, but that's the point. It's not immediatly apparent to us as most have been playing for 8+ years, but the movement in this game is one of the hardest to learn.
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 04:26:21 pm »
I was expecting a much less aggreeable list, but I have to say - very good picks. Just a few comments:

Unlim - Not sure if it's worth removing. It's one of the few DM maps that doesn't look terrible, and has a decent layout and nice flow. I'd keep it at least for now, until we find something much better.

Factory - I vote for removal. It's a very limiting map in terms of movement freedom and weapon choices, and not very noob-friendly. It also uses a lot of custom sceneries that aren't present in any other maps.

MrSnowman - I'm tempted to keep it because we barely have any winter-themed maps. Ultimately though, the layout is still poor and not worth keeping. I'd rather see a completely overhauled remake of this at some point in the future.

Bunker - IMO it should be removed too. I don't see how it's noob-friendly other than being a large open space that you can jet over instead of learning to move through terrain. It's not really teaching new players anything. There's probably much better alternatives out there.

Island2k5 - I vote for removing that one too, due to a number of pointless dead-ends, somewhat uninteresting layout and poor visuals.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 04:30:34 pm by L[0ne]R »


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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 05:36:10 pm »
I basically agree with what u posted. Personally I hate Cambodia and the fact it already had half of the tunnels removed, and they are still the issue clearly shows how well thought the layout was xD
Id substitute Bunker with Loner's remake if we want a map with a bunker in a middle. It looks way better and on top of that it allows some action and coverage in other sections of the map. (https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=44242.0).

MrSnowman is also a bit iffy for me. Pretty much what Loner said. I remember this map being quite fun on RamboMode back in the days ^.- On the other hand I don't know if we have enough will to remake the visuals :d Definitely one of the hardest choices in here!

Offline jrgp

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2016, 01:05:48 am »
Idk guys my three favorite DM maps are Island2k5, MrSnowman, and Bunker.

I agree with killing Arena 3 and Flashback and some of the others listed in OP's post. Also I hate how Factory has like no jets and is hard to move around in.

Maybe also bring back the original Airpirates by Evil-Ville and replace xtender's flashy remake with it.
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2016, 06:34:31 am »
One thing with Bunker is also that it's good for small amounts of players, between 2-6. We could remove it but something has to take its place, as it stands there aren't too many maps with a simple ground-level based layout.

Island2k5 I don't have much experience on tbh, but at least playing with bots the action felt nicely spaced.

The original Airpirates looks so much better and actually has a sense of graphical style, but I'm still not sure about the layout. It's difficult to move around in and nothing too exciting usually happens in the map. Bots also don't seem to fare well with the terrain.

So in conclusion, Airpirates should stay gone, Bunker needs a replacement (anyone?), MrSnowMan stays gone, and Island2k5 is still up for debate.
As for Unlim, the gameplay does flow well and movement in it is decently easy. Its layout makes a graphics redo challenging however, because at least I can't really think of any theme that fits it. Some other map should then also be removed in its place.
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Offline Name

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 07:18:27 am »
This is not funny.

Offline CCalp

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2016, 10:32:07 am »
My favourite DM maps are Flashback and DesertWind. Whilst the latter is not that popular amongst most players, I have found Flashback to be one of the most played DM maps ever since.
However, I am well aware that some people will definitely be disappointed for having their favourite maps removed, which will be inevitable, thus it'd be fair enough for me to see something nice gone along with many bullshit maps.
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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2016, 12:35:26 pm »
My favourite DM maps are Flashback and DesertWind. Whilst the latter is not that popular amongst most players, I have found Flashback to be one of the most played DM maps ever since.
However, I am well aware that some people will definitely be disappointed for having their favourite maps removed, which will be inevitable, thus it'd be fair enough for me to see something nice gone along with many bullshit maps.
~just my 2 cts
How do you like Bigfalls? I found them rather similar in overall layout, but Flashback is just a lot more simplified. Bigfalls/Flashback are those kind of big DM maps that are good for a high player count, and in this regard I found Bigfalls to be better as it has more geometry, i.e. more crannies for action to disperse to, and more nooks for safe reloading inbetween kill streaks. It allows for a higher player count while not devolving into a chaotic spawnkill fest.
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Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2016, 02:10:06 am »
Soldat is long overdue for a culling of the weak when it comes to the amount of default maps.

And I thought the amount of the default DM maps are painfully small...

All the default maps are going to receive a beauty makeover before then, and there's no way in hell we're doing that to a 100+ maps

Don't do it then.   :|

... Well, there is no need to redo every map if it's about cosmetic—some map benefits (if it does at all) from it a more than other. Some of the more abstract maps, like Arena or Unlim for example, can be left alone or just minor changes and focus more on something that adding more bling would be highly beneficial, like Daybreak or Jungle.

....

Srsly I can moan about this for hours... But Name already sum it up nicely :

This is not funny.
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

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Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2016, 06:08:45 am »
It's not like you can't still just download the maps and play like you used to. The game needs to be representable to new players, and that means cutting out the excess crap.
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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 08:39:14 am »
The idea behind the removal of the maps is to sort it out, polish the default pool and make it appear as a complete game with a decent mappack. I fully support the vesatility of the maps we have, but I don't agree that we should keep ugly/boring maps. I hope servers admins agree with this politics and with the lack of the defaults, they will provide fresh maps and test their playablilty using their playerbase. I believe the whole mapping team will not stand indifferent and we will happily add new ones to the .zip C:
Also, please notice these changes are aimed strictly at the maps that are not popular in the current state and, as I believe, their (low) popularity comes only from the fact it's the default map. If u really like a given map, as an admin of your beloved server to upload it to the server. Even if he doesn't agree to add it to the maplist cycle, you should still be able to vote it through with enough people willing to play "the old classic"

Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2016, 08:51:29 am »
It's not like you can't still just download the maps and play like you used to.

I got 2 main complaint about this; first one is an undeniable truth about life, the second is a technical one :

1:— Laziness is the nature of people, espiacially people like us lot... And the old adage 'Convenience is King' has been proven time and time again to be correct. Why making thing a chore when its inclusion do not hamper the game in anyway...?  If anything, the HD textures that make the game ~5x bigger to download for no good reason (I have my fire-proof suit ready, so go ahead and flame me for this!  :P) is, arguably, what drives new people away.

2:— There's more problem than just having to download the map; stuff will break—different map version in different version of the game will need to match exactly to the game server, which may be varied. It also add yet another layer of clusterfuck to how the game plays demo, of which it already got so many point of failure that rendered said demo unplayable.


The game needs to be representable to new players, and that means cutting out the excess crap.

People don't even let these new player use sniper line in servers cuz 'it's for stupid noobz who can't aim', and will annoy everyone of them to dead whenever chance they get cuz 'it's fun trolling n00bz trolololol!!11!' ... And you blame maps as 'excess crap' that drives new people away!?

Not to mention that the game does not even work properly even for seemingly basic, simple stuff— there's a fuck ton of these it will be such an embarrassing list if I were to make one  :-[—here's one; you can't use ALT+F2 to switch sniper line on/off once you join a server that disable it, even when play offline, until you restart the game... srs, wtf?  [retard]

---------

but I don't agree that we should keep ugly/boring maps.

What is your definition of a "boring map"?

 I get the ugly part, but the boring part, so far, seem like just an excuse for "I don't like it" and not very convincing...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 09:15:36 am by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline Monsteri

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2016, 11:29:30 am »
I doubt the bigger filesize is driving anyone away unless they live in Africa. It's still only 100MB, which is miniscule, and in fact due to us removing a lot of the maps we can even cut down the size further as some textures and sceneries become unnecessary. There will be no issues in version control either, unless you try to play old versions of the new default maps for some reason.

I never said anything about the excess amount of maps driving people away, it's the unpolished state of the game that does. To polish the game we need to focus our efforts on the very best of maps. As for the community, there's not much we can do about that. Buying official servers and recruiting decent moderation teams would help the reception newcomers have, but that's very off-topic for now. It's also a fallacious statement to presume that just because we are removing outdated and duplicate maps, no other issues will ever be looked at. In fact, many of the small issues stem from little and largely unnecessary features. What is the point of Alt+F2 turning sniper line on? You should do that in the game options.

Cutting things will be necessary to create a tight package that looks attractive and plays well.
Soldat is not getting new players if we keep stumbling around in legacy hell, and all too soon we'll be forced to do gathers to play the game with other people.
Staying in the past means certain death for the game. It's high time to move on.
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Offline Viral

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2016, 12:21:45 pm »
By "boring map" i meant duplicated layouts that don't provide anything interesting and don't have anything to offer other than what the rest of the mappack already offers. By no doubt you can fing Cobra and Snakebite interesting, but i don't see the reson to keep another X maps that provide nearly the same layout in the mappack. Thats why we have custom maplists on servers, where u can choose additional maps that fit your gameplay. I think we should aim on keeping the default maplist as tight as possible and as various as it can me. Then we can start adding ones judging by the community's opinions, to keep the maps up to date and if needed, recycle the older, not so popular anymore, maps C:

Offline BKT

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2016, 01:07:47 pm »
we are removing outdated and duplicate maps

Looking at your list in the first post, none of the map you propose should be remove were, in fact, "outdated and/or duplicate" of any other map. It just maps that are old and shares some similarity to some extent (highly debateable).

But seriously, Unlim is bad cuz Veoto is better? ... Wait, wat!? ??? ...  Come on, most of your argument for the removal of those map make no sense to me at all, and I'm not even trying to be a dick about it and being sincere.  Using your logic, a fuckload of CTF map can easily be remove also, since most of them are, indeed, "outdated and/or duplicate" of each other—much, much more than DM maps you said were this and that and stuff... 

What is the point of Alt+F2 turning sniper line on? You should do that in the game options.




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What the hell is this even mean ...?  :-\

----

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Ok then.  :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 01:38:16 pm by BKT »
Owned by player with high ping = Blame the ping.
Keep getting owned when playing on the other side of the world and got high ping = Blame the ping.

Make sense...

Offline CheeSeMan.

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2016, 04:15:29 pm »
Bunker is a legend of a map... so many hours of using the secret passage to roof and shooting Barrett shots through the roof... :D And tbh I have always had fun on it on DM servers also Rok is perfect don't see why it needs to be removed.

I would only remove Airpirates, this shitty one should have been removed ages ago!

But really why remove any? Server admins run whatever maps they want anyways & to argue we should remove a map because it doesn't help new players is just silly... none of them do we don't have any tutorial in the game at all.
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Offline CCalp

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2016, 08:46:50 am »
How do you like Bigfalls? I found them rather similar in overall layout, but Flashback is just a lot more simplified. Bigfalls/Flashback are those kind of big DM maps that are good for a high player count [...]
I find Bigfalls to be more suitable for public DM with 5+ players, in fact, I think it's one of the best maps for public DM out there. However, if it comes to competitive or even 1on1, Flashback has always been one of my most played maps (and at least back then when I was active in ESL 1on1 league, many people chose it).

Offline Seth Gecko

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Re: Removal of excess DM/+ maps.
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 02:59:27 pm »
But really why remove any? Server admins run whatever maps they want anyways & to argue we should remove a map because it doesn't help new players is just silly... none of them do we don't have any tutorial in the game at all.

I like the idea of having a "Quick Play" feature which lets you join an official DM/CTF server without having to open the server list.

Experienced players could use "Custom" to choose a server. And in an ideal world, there would be an integrated "Gather" system as third option.