Author Topic: A new art direction for 1.8  (Read 11617 times)

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Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2017, 08:33:47 am »
Though, I think the new WM has pretty much shut down everything, making some weapons completely useless. Combining that with meds and nade kits not spawning properly, you'll never see people defending, because it's just not possible to play that way.
Chapter 2
The current WM is very good for the game to progress

So there are definetly some of you who disagrees, but i really like how the WM has changed over the years because i always thought that weapon damage should be buffed as to lower TTK. Are we all forgetting this is a fast paced shooter game? Often times it is both about reading and reacting to your opponent. So honestly I don't see why it would come as a surprise to people that it is a little more offensively focused. Many years ago when Soldat was not that offensive i said that the number of shots should be lowered from 10+ to 6-7, like thankfully it is now, because there were just too many newcomers that absolutely loved this game but left it several times due to the insanely high TTK. Attacking larger groups with high TTK becomes nigh impossible, as any 1v2+ will almost undoubtedly result in the 2+ players finishing off the single person. Back in the day when launching Soldat when you have low experience, you would of been wrecked by better players. The thing is, with the frankly tiny amount of players we're having now, we won't get skill-based matchmaking because there's nobody else to play with except us-the vets, who, as previously mentioned, can wreck new players without breaking a sweat. Before this WM with increased damage came in, somewhat experienced players could easily take the flag and then run away using their advanced movement until the time runs out. Yes, some unexperienced newbie could occasionally take out the better opponent, but it was a very niche, and this shouldn't be a crucial part of the metagame. Currently, for a newbie the skill gap is not that huge, which is a good thing.

We shouldn't be aiming for a WM that succesfully eliminates the importance of aim and leaves movement abilities as the only differentiating factor between players because we already had it and it was a borefest for any new player. I don't think the upcoming big 1.8 version will catch on with any WM with decreased damage because it's defensive nature will likely render it a game that is not fun to watch. One of the reasons Soldat can still be a big, popular, monumental game is how simple it is to pick up and play and how it literally catered to every skill level. As a noob you dont need to know how to canonball to enjoy Soldat. If someone picks up the game and finds out it is extremely hard to kill someone due to high TTK and many other factors, he would just leave it straight away.

I was a young brat but i do remember the times and the reality back in when Soldat was released as a 0.something beta version. It grew to popularity because it was easy to learn and hard to master. Soldat was new, internet gaming was new, at least in Poland and in the central Europe as well. Everybody was bad. The gap of skill between newbies and active casuals to "pros" wasn't very big, and was easy enough to cross, simply because the general level of play was so low that the learning curve wasn't overtly steep. There was a natural "road of progression".

Now times have changed. Today there is a massive gap between newbies and veteran players, and even more massive between them and the top 1%. As the game progressed the skill curve became way too steep and the separation of player skill way too steep for a modern audience without a massive starting player base for matchmaking. There is no road of natural progression because the extremes have grown too far apart with little to no stopgaps in between. Either you make a massive dedicated effort to study, practice and learn standard of "basics" before you can even play technically the same game as your betters - or you spend your time getting hopelessly raped, and end up quitting the game having learned nothing and without having progressed anywhere. This problem can only be fixed with either a good WM - like we're having now, or the matchmaking system (an artifical substitute for "everyone is equally bad"). The easier WM is a total MUST anyways because we need to produce a gray mass of players to then create the matchmaking system. There is no other way because Soldat's player base is too small. This kind of WM should have been implemented long time ago, but its better late than never.

Now you may claim that the current WM is indeed good for a newcomer, but very bad for vets whose experience has been vanished. No, not at all. Skill and knowledge pays off over damage aka sprey and pray. This WM benefits newcomers on some occasions and other players on other occasions but in the long run, during the entire match it doesn't favor them because the better players will always end up taking a lead using the tactics newcomers have either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. Take a look at the SCTFL seasons. The skill gap is still there, it's just not that big, which is a very good thing.

Tactic is still a factor, and in cases where the players are otherwise close to, or totally equal, can thus be a determining factor, which is why in videos of pros like in HERE, it will often be the difference between who wins and who loses. This is true of the pros in a lot of games - there often is very little separating in their technical mastery of the game, and so strategy ends up being the deciding factor. Really then it's just a question of how much technique you like in your play on a certain map. Some people don't like to have to practice a bunch of stuff before they can even remotely get into the strategy, and don't want to lose to someone who they've got beaten strategically in cases where that simply doesn't give them enough of an edge to overcome their opponents superior reaction time etc. So the tactic and skill still makes the difference in the outcome, and so does superior aim, dodging in individual firefights on a certain route in the given map, and so the out-maneuvering aspect plays a larger role in determining the outcome and the communication between players like TS and stuff like that. WM is not the only factor that determines the result, so nothing anyone has said has thus far convinced me otherwise at all. Focusing on the pro-level, SCTFL playoffs for instance(where everyone's aim and movement is extremely good). If you took someone with excellent strategy, but average aim and dodging ability, and placed them against someone with excellent aim and dodging ability, but average strategy, who do you think the result would favour? I tend to think it's obvious enough, and this highlights my point; strategy is STILL a more major factor in determining who wins in one case than another.

And therefore i do believe that this is the right way of developing the WM. Yes it boils down to "click the other guy before he clicks me" but we need that now for the playerbase to grow. Low TTK means that the game becomes powerful as players have little chance to react. Magazine size matters less, as you can kill enough targets in a single magazine. Spray&pray become more important than accurate firing because lucky hits can net you a kill already, meaning sprey weapons are overall the best to mow down enemies. This is the type of gameplay we should stick to to make everyone, ESPECIALLY THE NEWCOMERS, feel powerful, as anyone can get lucky and accidentally murder a few dudes. Does it vanish the experience? No, not at all as i explained above.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:04:15 pm by Petterkowski »


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Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2017, 09:58:26 am »
I'm just gonna make it a huge quote, because there's no good way to seperate lines with these old board formats.
>Often times it is both about reading and reacting to your opponent.
No, it's not. Since the TTK is so low, all you have to do is spray or "aim" in the direction and you get the kill.
>So honestly I don't see why it would come as a surprise to people that it is a little more offensively focused.
I'm very "offensivly focused", and the game is just really bad now. It's really not that "offensive", it's just brute force. You throw bodies until one lucks out with lag and get a cap, that's really what makes the difference now. Tactics are gone.
>there were just too many newcomers that absolutely loved this game but left it several times due to the insanely high TTK.
Then they didn't love the game, did they? If they thought the TTK was too long they could play realistic. Or a server with a weapons mod.
>as any 1v2+ will almost undoubtedly result in the 2+ players finishing off the single person.
With a high TTK yes, that's true.
You know why that's good? Because that means teamwork is highly important. With proper position, and catching other players off posisiton, that may mean you can actually win that 2v1. It meas better strategy and tactics, with better teamwork wins.

With this low TTK it means that it really comes down to eats. You ate a nade, so now you freely get that 1v2 win, and you get the cap.
>Yes, some unexperienced newbie could occasionally take out the better opponent, but it was a very niche, and this shouldn't be a crucial part of the metagame. Currently, for a newbie the skill gap is not that huge, which is a good thing.
Somehow you believe it's a bad thing that skilled players dominate unskilled players... I really don't understand you. This is why you should never have been in the beta team, and why you really shouldn't have any say in anything about soldat.

Newbies don't play with veterans, it's never going to happen. Veteran players will not find any enjoyment to play against newbies, and newbies won't find it fun to play against veterans. Making the skills a veteran has obtained pointless will just make the veteran player quit the game.

>We shouldn't be aiming for a WM that succesfully eliminates the importance of aim and leaves movement abilities as the only differentiating factor between players because we already had it and it was a borefest for any new player.
That's what's been happening though, spread, and low TTK. Basically, aim doesn't matter that much anymore.
Movement SHOULD play a huge role, so should should aim, positioning, strategy, and being able to read the game flow.

At the moment, the only thing that matters is to have a bit better aim, and eat more, more or less at least.
>I don't think the upcoming big 1.8 version will catch on with any WM with decreased damage because it's defensive nature will likely render it a game that is not fun to watch.
And with that the game completely dies, no newbies will really play it, and veterans will completely drop the game.
>Now you may claim that the current WM is indeed good for a newcomer, but very bad for vets whose experience has been vanished. No, not at all. Skill and knowledge pays off over damage aka sprey and pray.
You sound like you're trying to tell the working class that it's a good thing they pay as much taxes as those who make 100 fold their salary.

The WM is bad for everyone. Every newbie still just play barrett and m79, and pros are left with a horribly bad WM.
 
>Tactic is still a factor, and in cases where the players are otherwise close to, or totally equal, can thus be a determining factor
It's not.
There are no tactics anymore. The only tactic is "LETS SMASH THEM AT UP INSTEAD OF MID!!!!".

There's no med pack and nades stealing, there's no defense that requires proper positioning, there's just no tactics involved at all. It's just rushing and hope you get a double kill and eat some nades so you can boost out with the flag.
>So the tactic and skill still makes the difference in the outcome
As I've said... No, the difference in the outcome is lag, primarily. Whichever side gets the more important eats wins.
>If you took someone with excellent strategy, but average aim and dodging ability, and placed them against someone with excellent aim and dodging ability, but average strategy, who do you think the result would favour?
The person with excellent aim and dodging ability would win 10-0. Strategy and tactics are dead.
I'm very much into strategy and tactics in this game, it was one of the things I loved the most... There's a reason we could get out wins with only 2/3rds (like 70vs110 kills) of the kills of the opponents was because of movement and strategy ( https://youtu.be/dYKYD1YITZ0?t=2m18s  (2min 18s) you think these law shots were a fluke? These were practiced, to time the law travel time for capper to be able to take flag as it drops... I did this both with PR and /MB/).

I was even the only person in the top 10 with a K/D below 0.9, the next ranked player with such a low K/D was below top 50 (Even lesonen had a higher K/D).
>I tend to think it's obvious enough, and this highlights my point; strategy is STILL a more major factor in determining who wins in one case than another.
No? It completely failed it? Reading through it, I was pretty sure you'd say that aim and dodging is the determining factor.
Strategy and tactics has no place in soldat at the moment, and probably never more.
>And therefore i do believe that this is the right way of developing the WM. Yes it boils down to "click the other guy before he clicks me" but we need that now for the playerbase to grow.
You believe the best way to make a wm is to eliminate tactics, strategy, movement, and aim... Because you want veterans and newbies to be on the same skill cieling. You're practically suggesting that CS would be better if NGEV had AWP dmg.
>Low TTK means that the game becomes powerful as players have little chance to react. Magazine size matters less, as you can kill enough targets in a single magazine. Spray&pray become more important than accurate firing because lucky hits can net you a kill already, meaning sprey weapons are overall the best to mow down enemies.
Yes, low TTK means that there's less skill invovled, it's just mindless killing... Like DM, which you so much like.
That's not a good thing.
>This is the type of gameplay we should stick to to make everyone, ESPECIALLY THE NEWCOMERS, feel powerful, as anyone can get lucky and accidentally murder a few dudes. Does it vanish the experience? No, not at all as i explained above.
Why don't we just make official aimbots? So newcomers can feel powerful.

Newbies playing other newbies will occasionally feel powerful no matter the WM.

You're full of bullshit, and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. This is why soldat is dying, if the game had remained fun people would've kept playing it, at least occasionally.
Still a few people in #soldat, but I quit many years ago, really only participating in sctfl because I thought it'd be the last one ever (which this time probably was).

Offline Herleck

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2017, 01:38:33 am »
Quote
Chapter 1
Good players vs The Pubs


[Too much bullshit...]

Chapter 2
The current WM is very good for the game to progress


[Too much bullshit...]

It is so stupid HAHAHAHA Chief I have idea for the next part!

Part 3
I took my meds and everything come back to normal
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 01:55:59 am by Herleck »

Offline Petterkowski

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2017, 06:02:58 pm »
Chapter 3
In-depth clarification; LOW TTK vs HIGH TTK

Somehow you believe it's a bad thing that skilled players dominate unskilled players
I never said that. I am not saying that higher skill players don't dominate, what I'm saying is that with the current WM the conditions for success are much easier to attain for beginners. Skilled players will always have an advantage in any WM system over unskilled players. Indeed they have a slightly higher advantage in high TTK systems, which you promote so much, because the effects of randomness and surprise are reduced. I also agree with you that with a low TTK a given player is much more instrumental to a team's success than the team as a whole. The game is about reactions and predictability, which is again a good thing in my eyes. Let's go through it:

To push it to extremes, in a REALLY high TTK a random Major would have a (small) chance against the best CTF player only if they both have 1 health remaining. On the other hand, he would have zero chance if they both had 100 health because all of the ways he could have won in the first scenario would end up washed out by the huge skill difference during a longer confrontation. This is the extreme you are hoping for. Currently Soldat is situated somewhere in the middle with overall of a medium TTK(yes it used to be higher, but currently it's also not that low) where the balance between the two definitely makes some dynamic fights in the game, where there's fast paced gun fights, as well as boring waitup battles. Currently the newbie has slightly bigger chance of killing the pro, but it's still a small chance. I say it works really well right now when lower skilled players are matched with higher skilled players(yes it happens all the time), at least giving them half a chance to get some kills. It's still near impossible for new players to win against higher skilled players, as they'll lack the coordination to effectively attack a well defended site or effectively defend and rotate against a well executed attack. Further, due to their relationship to movement, there are lots of options for making yourself harder to hit, which often leads to fairly long shootouts(at least at sub-pro levels.) If you're thinking otherwise take a look at the SCTFL titles section. For the past few years each season was dominated by the exact same players and the exact same 3,4 clans(out of 30 that were participating highly active). Don't you think that if skill and tactics were really not here anymore, we would have had by now a different finalist/winner each season? Who has more skills and better tactics will still get more wins. They might not get that 10-0 rampage, but their skill is still reflected on the final outcome. There will always be a skill gap that's just simple unreachable for a new guy who's just picked up the game for the first time. It's just the learning process goes faster now and its easier for the newbie to progress.

Due to low ttk strategy and tactics has no place in soldat at the moment, and probably never more. there's just no tactics involved at all. It's just rushing and hope you get a double kill and eat some nades so you can boost out with the flag.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're exaggerating. Counter-Strike has one of the fastest TTK of any FPS and proves otherwise. What would you say are some of the most skillful games from both of those categories(high and low TTK)? I'm having some trouble thinking of the best high ttk games. They seem to be fairly uncommon these days because they are not fun to watch due to high TTK being very frustrating for everyone involved as it's too easy for players to call in backup. 2 on 1s usually look horrendously bad in a high TTK game, while in a short TTK game you can still maneuver and use skill to kill both enemies. And please don't bring up eats in here because eats do happen in Soldat indeed, but do it happen consistently to the same person? Probably not so in the long term, skill and knowledge pays off over luck. Luck do exist in every game. Randomness benefits a particular player on some occasions and other players on other occasions but in the long run, during the entire match randomness doesn't favor anyone. Everyone will get lucky and unlucky, but the better players will always end up taking a lead. One lucky situation will never be the determinant of the final outcome. There are many other factors that make a greater contribution to the final result.

To sum it up, I think the biggest problem I have with high ttk is that I feel like I can get the great position on someone, have the advantage, play the map well, but the fight is only slightly more in my favor because the other person has so much more time to react. Basically what I am saying is that it reduces the need for strategy and understanding the map and how it will give you an advantage over the other player. The advantage map knowledge gives a player in a low ttk is much greater than a high ttk. I'm sure you will start arguing that isn't the case but this has been my experience and makes intuitive sense. Why would you be afraid to run out in the open when you know you can absorb more bullets? For me this is how I see it.

On a sidenote; You should learn to respect other players opinions, ginn, because it's a matter of preference, because the difference leads to different kinds of gameplay. If you can't shoot you are going to get slaughtered in high TTK, and if you don't play smart or have slow reactions you are going to get slaughtered in low TTK. Neither game takes more skill, it is just a different skill set to master. Soldat offers somewhat medium TTK that combines both features. Yes it still needs few obvious and smaller damage adjustments that we are all aware of, but i do believe we're on the right track.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 07:09:33 am by Petterkowski »


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Offline ginn

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Re: A new art direction for 1.8
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2017, 09:41:00 am »
CS is primarily a reaction and aim game, there's obviously strategy involved, but the main part is reaction and aim. A team with the best aimers and with the best reaction time will crush teams with not as good reaction times but with tactics.
Q3 is an example of long ttk game, and it's way more interesting to watch then CS, it also involves way more tactics and strategy. While aim still gives you a good advantage, knowing the map, the timings, and using good tactics, you're more likely to win.

I'm not sure why CS has so much popularity, it's probably for the same reasons as LoL/DotA. Not so much how good the game is, but because most ADHD 13 year olds play them.

Yes, eats happen more consistently for some people, long term. You're one of them, that is why generally people won't throw nades at you, as it's proven pointless over the years (I've actually had those conversations with people, throwing nades at you only messes up our own aim, but has maybe a 20% chance to damage/kill you).
When I tried to not cap my FPS in game I got a lot more comments on eats, and I saw them happening at a much higher rate than I've seen before.

If you can't use a positional advantage then you're just bad, if you're doing it right you can even do 1v3 defenses. Well, used to, now you just get killed in less than half a second by guns only. It's pretty much realistic mode at this point.