Author Topic: Dear MM  (Read 10360 times)

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Offline Farah

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2018, 09:34:01 am »
coming out of the woodwork for this goddamn shit

i don't know the details of this current drama enough to make judgements but honestly i don't really care. the core root of why the community always seems to have an uproar against developers to me seems to be because this game is treated like a propietary product that MM wants to cling on to for dear life. what do i mean by that? think about what soldat is kept alive by - the efforts of developers in all fashions from the community facillitating its continued existence. from the creators of gatherbots, the tournament infrastructure, the community forums and instant chat places(lol so inarticulate). its a fucking labour of love, but anyone who wants to actually participate in the labour of love of developing the actual game has to navigate this weird circle with MM at the goddamn centre. it requires a direct line to somebody who has long lost any investment in this actual game and while it might not require his friendship, it requires his goddamn approval and for somebody who has clearly not given a goddamn about this game for more than a decade(which is fair tbh, ive grown out of judgement for it), it is absurd.

now i don't know exactly how much shoozza is to blame but lets assume for a second he's not: the human capacity to work on something out of love in a world where most time-investment is profit-driven is incredibly limited. why do we have to go through these cycles of drama when the community start to perceive that their devs aren't entirely invested in at least trying to keep the game alive? or letting the only people who care about this game know what's happening? in my eyes, the answer is simple - soldat is not open-source. to develop the game, one must get access to the source by contacting and communicating with a person who is actively distant from the game and would rather it have probably never existed(i might be being unfair here but its annoying tbh).

open-source the goddamn game already your excuses for not doing it were bullshit 10+ years ago and they're bullshit now. give the people and yourself a break holy shit. you'd have saved yourself so much goddamn trouble if you'd listened all those years ago. can you learn from history for once?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:52:33 am by Farah »
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Offline L[0ne]R

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2018, 02:19:36 pm »
There are plans to open-source the game after it's released on Steam (which was supposed to be this month, but it may be delayed a bit more). Once it's open-sourced - hopefully the process of community involvement will be much less contrived, like you said.


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Offline jrgp

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2018, 02:37:04 pm »
There are plans to open-source the game after it's released on Steam (which was supposed to be this month, but it may be delayed a bit more). Once it's open-sourced - hopefully the process of community involvement will be much less contrived, like you said.

I don't really think open sourcing the game will make problems go away or become an instant positive contribution to the state of things. Something tells me the eventual GitHub PRs will be few and far between, and will likely mostly be 2 line trivial changes.

It's an ancient (a lot of files have (C) MM 2002 at the top) large codebase which can be a struggle to work on, written in a language that few people use and even fewer like.

And when someone does show a strong interest in contributing code to Soldat, it usually isn't hard for them to join the dev team, which is why there have been so many devs. Part of the turnover rate of Soldat devs (all the "former" ones there are) likely stems back to the language it's written in, instead of just politics and IRL time constraints.

Given all that, I think a Steam release would have the most impact. Even just the current version in it's current state.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:48:13 pm by jrgp »
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Offline helloer

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2018, 04:35:33 pm »
There are plans to open-source the game after it's released on Steam (which was supposed to be this month, but it may be delayed a bit more). Once it's open-sourced - hopefully the process of community involvement will be much less contrived, like you said.

I have asked Shoozza about that plan some time ago and he told me that he won't allow to open source soldat until there will be proper anti-cheat or reworked netcode and we all know what that means :)

Quote
I don't really think open sourcing the game will make problems go away or become an instant positive contribution to the state of things. Something tells me the eventual GitHub PRs will be few and far between, and will likely mostly be 2 line trivial changes.

It's an ancient (a lot of files have (C) MM 2002 at the top) large codebase which can be a struggle to work on, written in a language that few people use and even fewer like.

And when someone does show a strong interest in contributing code to Soldat, it usually isn't hard for them to join the dev team, which is why there have been so many devs. Part of the turnover rate of Soldat devs (all the "former" ones there are) likely stems back to the language it's written in, instead of just politics and IRL time constraints.

Given all that, I think a Steam release would have the most impact. Even just the current version in it's current state.

Few PRs in open source soldat > 0 PRs in closed source soldat = open soldat wins, quick maths.

1. Read this topic https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=39129.0
2. Look at changelogs and devlogs from 1.5.x to 1.7.1 version
3. Read about soldat dramas that happened in 2010-2018
4. Read open source petition: https://www.change.org/p/micha%C5%82-marcinkowski-make-soldat-open-source
5. Draw conclusions or if you are friend of Shoozza or MM: tell community that there are some positives of current state of things and everything is going to be ok because soon? soldat will be on steam

Soldat as Open source project is the only way to go.

Offline jrgp

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2018, 05:09:03 pm »
Few PRs in open source soldat > 0 PRs in closed source soldat = open soldat wins, quick maths.

1. Read this topic https://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=39129.0
2. Look at changelogs and devlogs from 1.5.x to 1.7.1 version
3. Read about soldat dramas that happened in 2010-2018
4. Read open source petition: https://www.change.org/p/micha%C5%82-marcinkowski-make-soldat-open-source
5. Draw conclusions or if you are friend of Shoozza or MM: tell community that there are some positives of current state of things and everything is going to be ok because soon? soldat will be on steam

Soldat as Open source project is the only way to go.

I don't disagree with any of that.

My point is a steam release would have a more immediate impact on the community from a player point of view, and trying to coordinate multiple things at once (OSS release vs steam vs everything else in the gargantuan TODO lists) without clear direction as to which should take priority is likely why we're stuck in a limbo state.
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Offline Guil TheDamned

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2018, 08:38:11 pm »
I also think open source is only way to go.

You have complainers on both side and they will stick to their side whatever happen.


Just see open source like a competition:

Red corner : MM + Shoozza

Blue corner : All the others that think they would do better.


Also, it seem there is some people with decent knowledge and passion in blue corner, how come none of them is willing to group and build their own project?

Offline darDar

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2018, 08:54:49 pm »
Also, it seem there is some people with decent knowledge and passion in blue corner, how come none of them is willing to group and build their own project?

we don't want a new game,.. we want soldat to be developed, grow and be improved.

PS: I'm really looking forward for a reply by MM & Shoozza regarding what has been discussed/mentioned here.
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Offline Guil TheDamned

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2018, 10:36:23 pm »
I do understand your point of view on that.

On the other side, if all those people really fought for 8 years to make soldat better with no improvements, I guess a better "soldat" project would came to life if you all joined forces.

As an example, I was playing frets on fire a lot before and my brother asked me why I was wasting my time on a game like that. With all the time I wasted I could be good at guitar. It was making sense and I bought a guitar so now I am playing the real thing, have more fun and get skills.


Btw, sorry for my english, not mother tongue.


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Offline Akinaro

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2018, 03:57:42 am »
I dont understand what you expect from Steam release? Its in the same position or worst than open-source it.
You really believe that putting Soldat on Steam will make it better and popular just like that? Especially that this release will not have any significant changes from player perspective?

It will literally drown in list of games that steam have. It will get initial week or two hype made by old player checking it after long break... and then they realize that its still the same but just available on steam... I can bet my car that Soldat will get back to its stagnation after month, when new players will check it, play a bit, realize that those MASSIVE eats and lags, crappy look is actually feature in this game, and they forgot about it after that...

What are devs initial assumptions about player base after release? Anyone actually gather any statistic and informations about this game? This if first fricking thing you do with product: you make sure that you fallow your own game and gather opinions and statistics. Oh wait, what Im saying... there is no one here who even deal with advertising and promotion of game... sorry my bad. -_-


But honestly how much do you think steam release will give you in terms of player increase and popularity? Especially when it will be release purely made just for Steam, nothing more in it will be made.
Looking at last "big release" , we had exactly the same situation, even if this release had some visible improvements and changes.
It was big hype made purely by community members who actually spread the words about it, there was moderate bump in player number during first week, then decrease in next few weeks, and after months average player number in lobby between 8-22(UTC+1) was again just 30-70.


Now Open-source IS ALSO NOT A SOLUTION. It need also work on game and strategy with dealing with lobby, servers and compatibility. Because it will create initial chaos, of bunch of weird almost hacked versions of game, but trick with open sourcing game is that after some time, it will all calm down, this strategy of open game is made for long term work. It will take maybe half of the year before this chaos will slow down, and we end with maybe one or two repos that have bright feature. Some people will get annoyed by that long delay crying that "eeee! Open sourcing didnt work! eeee, you ruined this game!" but such projects always work like that.

And even after open-source Soldat there is still lots of responsibility in hand of devs, MM as owner and this site and discord, because there need to be place where people can gather and discuss all those repos and gather resources and ideas. Open or not, game need central place where people can meet and talk.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 04:00:42 am by Akinaro »

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2018, 05:47:34 am »
The truth is we will never get an ideal version of Soldat which we all want. We can't expect that things which should be done +10 years ago will somehow appear in nearly future. These improvements you talking about would never come true. We can only agree with it and put this game to steam like it is. It's the place to which Soldat was going for whole its life so let it die there slowly. I want to believe that I am wrong with this pessimistic vision.

Offline ginn

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2018, 09:33:25 am »
Also, it seem there is some people with decent knowledge and passion in blue corner, how come none of them is willing to group and build their own project?
This is really the only way to go.
Soldat does not have a future, even if it's released to steam I doubt there'll really be any change in player numbers after the initial week, if anyone even notices it.

I suspect the time investment to implement everything that needs to be implemented to make soldat modern will take a longer time to do than to make a new game on a modern 2d engine.

Anyway, the only reason I'm concerned with the steam release is because of the wm, and the nade/med-kit situation. This is something I've wanted to make sure gets fixed, but I'm continuously denied to join the beta team. So, there's just a bunch of people who hadn't even noticed the med/nade-kit spawn changed who got access to it... And same happened with wm.

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2018, 10:58:31 am »
I forwarded your message to MM on the same day it was posted. Adding that I would accept any action he had to infer from it.
Since he didn't reply here on his own, I'd like to update you on his decision he gave me personally:

--
MM encurated me to continue working on the game and improve focus.
He said I shouldn't let the negative 0.1% of the community bring me down.
--


I infer that attack posts of such kind are not working in the way people expect them to.


About the post:
The fact that you choose not to message me about your concerns and rather write an inaccurate, one sided hit piece about me is very disappointing.
Such posts have no place in a healty community and therefore won't get a detailed reply on my side.

If you are not locked in this kind of thinking but rather an open minded person interested in the actual reasons for this, feel free to open a new thread which allows for a civil discussion and potential improvements.

Anyone attacking MM or any developers in a similar or even worse way should reconsider their actions.
Developing this game is already mentally taxing and time consuming - it shouldn't be unrewarding, depressing and hurtful.

As a community we should be better than this and treat people with respect.


BTW: If someone else wants this discussion - feel free do create a new thread.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:27:08 am by Shoozza »
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Offline ginn

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2018, 11:06:23 am »
He said I shouldn't let the negative 0.1% of the community bring me down.
Does he believe the game has a community beyond the sctfl/gather community? This is more like the negative 60-80% of the community.

The community consists of at most 100 people, where maybe 40 are active.

Offline Savage

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2018, 11:41:45 am »
Shoozza if developing Soldat is depressing You then why not end it and just open source? Please show Us some signs that You enjoy coding/playing soldat. If You won't have free time for longer period then tell it to community - from player side it looks like You're hidden somewhere in some weird depression about Soldat. If You would team up with helloer things would go faster, think about what players will like not Yours or helloer's imagination. Overall this is all fuc**** up, thanks.

Offline Akinaro

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2018, 11:57:08 am »
He said I shouldn't let the negative 0.1% of the community bring me down.

If this is 0.1% Im a pope.
No wonder MM dont care if he dont even realize how many people actually are active/play this game...


I infer that attack posts of such kind are not working in the way people expect them to.
All we expect is to make this game better. And Its not really our fault that more and more people are tired of lazy develompent that we had for past YEARS


The fact that you choose not to message me about your concerns and rather write an inaccurate, one sided hit piece about me is very disappointing.
Such posts have no place in a healty community and therefore won't get a detailed reply on my side.

This is public matter, lots of people think the same. Dont try hide it behind PM. Also Healthy community would have healthy development and clear communication between players-devs. Right now we have: "No one know. No one care. No one listen."

It was obvious for everyone that sooner or later this fake magic bubble will break and all people start saying what they always wanted. Game was under your supervision, you should be first to see that.


If you are not locked in this kind of thinking but rather an open minded person interested in the actual reasons for this, feel free to open a new thread which allows for a civil discussion and potential improvements.

Point is that any negative comment will be treated by you and MM as "drama", you just cant handle and really defend all those opinions that we had for 3 pages.

If you though that people still be prising everything you do, just quit. Half of work with anything starting from cleaning dishes to creating space rockets is about dealing with your mistakes and omissions and defending your own work. Not hiding behind "Dont be mean to me". If you screw something and people are angry: deal with it like men.

Anyone attacking MM or any developers in a similar or even worse way should reconsider their actions.
Developing this game is already mentally taxing and time consuming - it shouldn't be unrewarding, depressing and hurtful.

As a community we should be better than this and thread people with respect.


Its not attack, most of we had in this topic is hard truth and personal opinions, if you cant handle it just quit. If its mentally taxing for you: ask for help or quit.

As a community(by looking in all those comments not only here but in other places) we are really tired of dealing with lazy development and lack of any progress for past YEARS.

Because we talk here about YEARS of development that for 90% give Soldat really nothing. Now when MM showed up just like that, and said game will be released on Steam literally in the same state as its now is just hilarious.
Its his game, thanks to this game he managed to move forward, and he literally pissed on it for all those years. There was no one here to keep that game up to date. For you and for rest of those "devs", it was just a playground that you did for weekend.

If you or any other person that handle Soldat was "open minded" like you said, we would have proper team with people responsible for promotion, communication, we would have proper community input that would be used and most of features needed by new generation of players.


Dont expect anything more than 50-70 tired and angry players that for all those YEARS post ideas, opinions, help suggestions, ready to use assets, concepts arts that no one from devs consider to use, even if all other people liked them and wanted them. Its actually miracle that some of them are actually still here and post their opinions here!


We talk here about YEARS, so its not like it could not be made, we could make even second game in that time period, and most of that time was under your development, so please dont try to tell us that its "mentally taxing and time consuming". You and MM had YEARS to deal with it. You cant really cover all that wasted time with idea of putting game on steam hopping that it will help the game.

Offline Savage

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2018, 12:30:25 pm »
Dont expect anything more than 50-70 tired and angry players that for all those YEARS post ideas, opinions, help suggestions, ready to use assets, concepts arts that no one from devs consider to use, even if all other people liked them and wanted them. Its actually miracle that some of them are actually still here and post their opinions here!
Yup, don't dare to think You're only 1 "hardworking" on Soldat, there has been made thousands of maps, scripts, modes, graphics, servers. Many people used lots of hours to do great stuff, please don't tell to community Soldat is mentally taxing and time consuming for fu** sake

Offline vinteek

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2018, 02:36:15 pm »
Shoozza, if you trully believe that we are 0,1% of community you must be living in 2012. Whenever I join discord I can see no more than 100 people, half of which have nothing to do with Soldat or just played it few times like decade ago and another half of them are old players like me. I am not active these days because there are no reasons for me to return. The things that made me want to quit this game are still here for over a decade. Furthermore they are the things that led MANY of players to leave this game and still in the light of it you're not fixing this. Can someone that actually have knowladge about Soldat code explain what is so hard in fixing the netcode so we would experience hit's occasionaly? Because in my prime time in this game I was really surprised by killing someone with 1 grenade.

Over past YEARS the only things that has been done in my eyes are deleting bug with nades going through thin walls and upgrading graphics. Whereas your entire devlogs and patchnotes are filled with almost irrelevant, in players eyes, things. You gave power over weapon mode to darDar who (no offence) has no idea of what Soldat has been and what it needs to be. Weapon mode itself became easier and easier each verion, some might say he did it for himself to actually get better in the game. However he was able to work with Ginn to work out new weapon mode that will be better than one we have now. If he could accept the help and if what coco said about helloer and other people wanting to help YOU why couldn't you accept their help? Especially if their work gave actual results in another banhammer for hackers?

As it was said above, you will never succeed if you dont treat this game as a monetary project. Also take note that almost all of our posts, despite the community tendency to be toxic af, are actually filled with substantive thoughts, they are not the hate speech like: you suck because you suck.


Offline koooka

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2018, 02:57:52 pm »
I don't know if you are dumb Shoozza or you just act like that :D 0.1% of community... Nice joke :D

Offline Shoozza

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2018, 03:24:32 pm »
Closing thread, since people have a hard time reading my reply.
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Offline darDar

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Re: Dear MM
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2018, 07:28:04 pm »
Closing thread, since people have a hard time reading my reply.

unlocked this topic.

 The community has provided large feedback and is seeking for a plan on Soldat's future and an update. Locking the thread for no reason won't help.

no one posting here is trying to personally attack you or MM. What has spoken out their thoughts,.. isn't a 0.1% minority. It's the overall opinion from the most experienced and loyal members of our community.

These have to be taken serious.

Dont expect anything more than 50-70 tired and angry players that for all those YEARS post ideas, opinions, help suggestions, ready to use assets, concepts arts that no one from devs consider to use, even if all other people liked them and wanted them. Its actually miracle that some of them are actually still here and post their opinions here!
Yup, don't dare to think You're only 1 "hardworking" on Soldat, there has been made thousands of maps, scripts, modes, graphics, servers. Many people used lots of hours to do great stuff, please don't tell to community Soldat is mentally taxing and time consuming for fu** sake
Also, yes I agree on that.
We have dozens of members in our community who have put a lot of wok to keep soldat alive.

Everything people ask for is an update of the current state of development.. Also, if MM doesn't reply in here, that'd be just very disappointing and confirm what has already been said in here.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:16:19 am by darDar »
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