Soldat Talk > General Discussions
Soldat 2020 feedback series, pt.2 - Maps
Aeronic:
CTF
Which maps get a lot right:
Ash, B2b, Laos, Maya, Ruins, Viet, Voland
Some that don't:
Blade
Gimmicky clusterfuck with no redeeming qualities.
0/5
Campeche
Super open bases, awkward and limited combat angles, no middle ground, not very fun. For advanced competitive players in 3v3 exclusively; I can't imagine this map being fun in any other scenario and even then it'd be nothing special.
1.8/5
Cobra
Spammy little shitbox. Always hated it; even in vods of top players I can't stand watching other people play it.
0.5/5
Crucifix
Gimmicky, spammy, tiny, super undynamic with limited gameplay variety
0.1/5
Death
Spammy, undynamic, simple, small.
I couldn't even remember the map it was based on until I heard about Death2, which sounded familiar somehow... and after downloading it, it all came flooding back. This may be the nostalgia talking, but frankly, the gaudy colours were the only thing the original map had that set it apart. The new version has nothing. It was a mess then, it's probably even more forgettable now.
1/5
Equinox
I'm not saying these maps are shitty just for being small as if big maps are automatically good, and this is the map that proves it. Equinox is a shocker.
The main route is ridiculously open. With enemies able to come from so many angles, it's literally just dumb luck if you're looking in the right place at the right time. As the bases are cramped as hell and as soon as someone is more hurt than another, they're immediately at a huge disadvantage due to the super tight chokepoints, and such contrast in advantage on such a long map is overly punishing. And yet if they canm somehow get in, they're almost likely to get out with the flag thanks to the ability to whore all the healthpacks. Once they're out, it's very hard to catch them.
Meanwhile, the lower route is the exact opposite: it's 20km of straight, narrow, unchanging tunnel; other than the short break provided by the middle cavern which doesn't really change how anything is played. Again, this tunnel just limits how you can engage another player so much that the contest is dumbed down to simple attrition, totally devoid of skill.
Not a good map for experienced players, terrible map for beginners. Equinox is more frustrating than fun.
0.8/5
Guardian
Ridiculously open, tiny, undynamic, spammy mess of a map.
1/5
Hormone
Gimmicky, tiny, unsophisticated, one-dimensional spamfest. Reverse CTF isn't even CTF. Just because it's possible doesn't make it a viable idea.
0/5
Icebeam
Of the gimmicky maps, this is the best, but it's still gimmicky and has limited gameplay depth.
2/5
Lanubya
It's fine if a bit plain for me, but IMO its terrain is awkward to navigate for new players and neither the combat or movement tech opportunities in the middle of the map are really great for experienced players either. It's overall a pretty bland map in public games for more experienced players, and one I can see being frustrating for noobs. Is somewhat similar to Mayapan in size and layout, just more geometrically complex. Also nothing special for competitive. The base areas are pretty cool though.
2.4/5
Mayapan
Bland. Broken AF bridge. Mayapan doesn't really offer anything interesting for players past the most basic skill level. It's like a spamfest map, only big. With plenty of more interesting maps, there's really just no point in this one being in the game.
1.7/5
mfm
I just find it bland. Don't have anything to say about it at all really.
3/5
Nuubia
Super simple, super repetitive, super undynamic. Was this map the beginning of the end of worthwhile map design in soldat?
1.8/5
Raspberry
There's something in the general layout that I think could be fun. That said, it falls into the typical pit traps of many of these new maps by trying to be hectic ahead of allowing the gameplay naturally flow - largely thanks to most of the action taking place close to the spawns thanks to the fact the bases are so close it only takes about 5 seconds to get from one to the other.
2/5
Run
Probably a bit too big, especially given each path doesn't really change how a player must approach any given section from the last. Movement superiority has an immense advantage.
2/5
scorpion
Gimmicky trash. Not even worth discussing, it's just utter tripe.
0/5
Snakebite
For a spammy map, it's actually just the right size, and can be fun. It's just bad for casual play, and the lower route is bad design - it's so long and plain, it's really only useful as an escape route. Even campers will hardly see enough action down there to maintain their interest, while the upper route is too open and with 99% of traffic going that way, is too much for new players to handle.
1.5/5 for casual play, 2.5/5 for competitive
Triumph
Gimmicky; the chain cap gimmick forces too much attention on the low route which ruins the rest of the map.
1.4/5
Wretch
Big fan of the flag areas in Wretch. Or at least I would be, if not for seeing how it's played by the best players: shooting the flag up and into their base. What a dumb, unfun, yet obviously powerful tactic. Easy to fix though.
Making the map larger and forcing a team to break defense before entering the enemy base would also be a huge benefit to overall gameplay, as the middle of the map is small, undynamic, and uninteresting.
2.3/5
x
X is so bad it's right up there with Factory, fighting for the title of being the worst map in the game. Tiny spammy disgrace of a map.
Fuckin' Zero.
Aeronic:
I'm just so surprised these maps became the norm. I know I'm not the only one who sees these maps negatively - similar sentiments were shared by a number of older players I've met, and many new players I've talked with about particular maps agree, too.
*Why* did Soldat go all-in on this style of mapping and gameplay? I think the core community just became too insular. As more people left, there were fewer voices of dissent to give any resistance to the status quo. In such circumstances, those that do go against the grain aren't united in their opinions, which is needed against a majority of like-minded friends. And ultimately, for whatever reason, the people in charge liked bad maps and got what they wanted.
Just a guess.
To wrap up here though, let's outline features future default maps should strive to implement.
DM:
* Every map needs multiple "areas" with their own 'best' way of being played, and which are viable enough to be sought depending on preference, weapon selection, skill, etc..
* Spawn locations that encourage use of the entire map, i.e. having at least one in each "area" and spreading them out so it's not just more efficient to camp one area.
* Controlled bounds for how many directions a player in any area of a given map has to account for.
* Escape routes that can be countered, not be free passes.
CTF:
* Be large enough to have control points that allow players outside their base to have some level of advantage when used right. If they're left with less health and no refuge, it's too close to being a guaranteed kill for the enemy, and the gameplay revolves too heavily around dumb attrition.
* Be large enough to afford new players the space and time they require to learn without being totally destroyed.
* Force new players to think beyond the most basic moves.
* Have clearly defined routes. Forcing players to guess where the enemy will come from when given too much space is not fun, e.g. top route Equinox.
* And all maps should strive to push players to use a variety of aspects of Soldat's moves set.
P.S. Let it be known that I have been critical. Please feel free to offer your own analysis of a map I have made recently, ctf_Blood: an attempt to create something that preserves high speed gameplay while offering opportunities to control areas of the map, have multiple viable routes without becoming a total clusterfuck, and potentially enjoyable in public servers by new players.
jrgp:
It looks like you've given a great deal of thought into your feedback and this (as well as your other topic) have made really enjoyable reads for a longtime soldat fan.
What are your thoughts on maps like Blox, Island2k5 and ctf_Kampf? Would you be willing to do a review of Inf maps as well? Inf is my favorite game mode and I had so much fun in maps like Rise, Moonshine, Outpost back in the mid 00s.
Also, what are your thoughts on using ctf and inf maps for deathmatch? I run some servers and I enjoy DM in maps like Ash and Belltower.
As for the decline in map quality, I think it's due to almost all mappers working in isolation and preferring to focus on good graphics rather than gameplay.
Aeronic:
Hey, glad some people are appreciating them!
* My thoughts on those maps:Blox: I'm not the biggest fan personally, but it's ok. I find the spawns funnel players too much into a large vertical corridor running from the lower left platform to the roof just left of the large top platform. Too much gameplay is centred around that area, and the sheer vertical size allows a lot of opportunity to get flanked out of nowhere.
Island2k5: I haven't had much of a chance to play this one, with just a handful of plays. Initial impressions are that it's very big. The whole ground level seems the most efficient area to patrol, and it's pretty easy to get sniped by players who aren't interested in getting in amongst the action. I'd prefer players to be able to have more control over how exposed they are, without compromising their capacity to frag. Doesn't really feel like it fits as a default map to me, either.
Kampf: I have so much nostalgia for this map it's very hard to separate that from how it really plays... but, I can try. This map was hell in large public servers, but I still managed to have fun, and I don't entirely know how that is? It was near impossible to get the flag out of blue. It's a clusterfuck, but it's a focused clusterfuck, and I think anyone's capable of enjoying it as long as they aren't expecting a totally balanced experience. I think part of it is that while it does revolve around attrition similarly to the above ctf maps I disparaged, it's so focused that not only do new players find it easy to grasp what needs to be done quickly, the fact it's such a meat grinder forces them to embrace the notion of pushing themselves to break through, which can be a good learning experience in the right environment. Good public server map, I think, but unworkable for competitive.
That stands in contrast to the likes of Guardian, for example, in that that map is just so much more random, and even faster. Guardian is less about breaking through and more about getting lucky using the huge area you could appear in at any time while still being able to attack 90% of the map, simply resulting in plain frustration for new players.
* As for Inf maps, I won't be doing a review of them. I haven't played any of the maps new to me with other people at all; there are simply no active Inf servers currently. It's a shame, as I also had a tonne of fun back in the day in Inf; some of my clearest memories of Soldat were from that mode. But an important part of making Inf fun was large numbers of players, which is obviously a huge problem for the game right now. I think it makes a great complementery piece to the meat & potatoes of Soldat: CTF & DM. When even those modes are struggling though, there are more pressing concerns that need to be put forward before worrying about how Inf might fit in.
* DM in maps made for other modes: really depends on the map. Generally I think it probably wouldn't be that great, especially for large Inf maps, but I'm sure there are plenty which would work. Some people might even really like it, but I don't think it's something that should be given any kind of development attention going forward. The option is there for people who can think to try it, and that's probably enough.
* Map makers typically look to what makes the default map list to serve as inspiration for what they make, as well as the feedback they come across on their own and others' maps. I think it's very rare to have community mappers truly operate in isolation. It's whoever is responsible for what makes the default map list who is/are responsible for the style and direction of current & future maps, in a big way. The issue is that it appears that, over a long period of time, they've ignored all criticism of their preferred style of map.
With such a small and dwindling overall playerbase over the last decade, I find it hard to imagine there are many map makers who have truly produced something outside the scope of community expectations.
And while I don't doubt some mappers focus on graphics above gameplay, from what I've seen either the graphics aren't good enough for that to be obvious, or there are still mappers who try to address gameplay as well.
machina:
--- Quote from: Aeronic on July 10, 2020, 04:22:02 am ---Nuubia
Super simple, super repetitive, super undynamic. Was this map the beginning of the end of worthwhile map design in soldat?
1.8/5
--- End quote ---
lol this map used to be a frequent pick on gathers and I definitely do not recall it being "super undynamic". Besides, who did you play with on these maps to assess them? Bots?
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