I don't know if the balance is new but...

[Bugs Revenge]

The spas is a wayyyyy too strong,
I mean, atm , in the soldat now it's too strong in my oppinion,
making it faster and stronger would make it unbeatable,
I've tried it with bots, it's just nonesence.

about the autos - they'r fine even though I don't think bink should be changed.
and that's it overall

[Toumaz]

The Spas-12 may seem to be very strong, but the short trajectory and the slow makes up for it. Try using it on an open map against those skillful bots and you will see the odds change.

[Mr. Domino]

Though the shots do disperse and travel reasonably far, the Spas is pretty much a close range weapon. The Spas is just unique in that it has some side benefits beyond just simply using it as a weapon a la the M79 and Minigun. The knockback allows you to Spas boost for a little extra speed, and being able to bink, damage, and knock back enemies with it can prove frustrating to an opponent, especially for flag returns. Still, if you stay your distance as with all short range weapons, you'll see how to take the Spas apart. As always, pick the right weapon for the right map, route, and enemies you're taking on.

[O.R.I.O.N.]

The only time I use the Spas is in R/S, where it truly shines.

[Twistkill]

The only time I use the Spas is in R/S, where it truly shines.

Ha. All weapons do much more damage in realistic mode.

I think the Spas is fine. Although it seems impossible to stop in small maps, just play on a map like Shau and you'll see how it's not as strong as before.

[5th_account]

Them be fightin' words commin' from you, boy.

You claim to be an experianced M79er while running around with minimi in gathers. If you think the spas is that overpowered why don't you use that instead when it's Hammer Time?

I mean, atm , in the soldat now it's too strong in my oppinion,

With the default balance it tends to be an overwhealming weapon to face in the hands of an experianced foe in the right places, yet underpowered in your own. As a spas user myself I can safely say that it's too weak, damage-wise, but it can fire too fast to be correctly balanced in 1.3.1. It's neither under- nor overpowered, just unbalanced. Hell you even agreed on the change I made in the experimental mod. But you're at the recieving end of the Spas, and pretty much all of the Spas users are the experianced ones, because the autos are much better, which lures all the suckers... just look at newbies like twistkill!

making it faster and stronger would make it unbeatable,

Well not really. You're an experianced playah, if you remember 1.1.5 you'd know that todays autos are about 95% as lethal as back then. Compared to the semis which range from 65 to 80 percent. Basically all "pro" vets agree on 1.1.5 being the most balanced version ever, ignoring the barret. Even so, I'm not making it faster in the exp. mod.

I've tried it with bots, it's just nonesence.

Yey bots! When not walking and jetting in straight and predictable lines they're very haxy with the whole getting stuck thing. The only thing they're clever enough to dodge are nades lying on the ground. The Spas has the lowest bullet speed after the M79, which makes it very hard to hit agile targets, such as HUMAN PLAYERS.

about the autos - they'r fine even though I don't think bink should be changed.

Ya why is that... The high bink is really useful in the whole not-fixing-anything-that-low-bink-can't. It works in a horrible way and you should know it.


Oh yeah...

I just hope there won't be much changes done, the balance is very good right now.

<3 agreed.

¬_¬

But you wouldn't have admitted that when we were actually making the 1.3.1 weapons mod, right? Gave me a run for my money you did... barret will be ruined you said... knife'll be ****ed up you said....

*nag nag moan moan*

Hmm, so you think it's fine while beotchin' about overpowered guns. Nevertheless, you always seem to be wrong. Might be great to do the exact opposite of what you are saying? Woesh...

[Bugs Revenge]

Wow wow, let's go slowly on this one,
"You claim to be an experianced M79er while running around with minimi in gathers".
You've seen me using Minimi in one gather while I was on the main way, I can't use there m79 as you know and with the lags Des didn't seemed to hit so.. :\
that's not getting even close to the point I had.
I didn't talked about you as a player personaly, you shouldn't too. that's not a way admin should do, nieder a beta tester.

anyhow back to our topic,
I'm using spas in this version as well, I ain't talking about vets using it in the right situations, but I see how can it block people, I can see how it kill by one shot if it's very close, I see lots of stuff that you as a gun user can't see.

"making it faster and stronger would make it unbeatable,"
you see? that's a point I'd like to show you and that's the MAIN REASON I didn't like the idea that you, unexperianced guy at weapon ballance try to do it.
making a weapon faster makes the shots a way stronger,
for ex. if u add +1 speed it means about +5 dmg to spas, which means u've added to it about 30 dmg?! IT'S A LOT! It's too much.!
I ain't sure you've even tested the spas out, and if you did you've ignored it for stupid reasons and I realy don't want to think it's because u'r a weapon whore ok?
You've been here quite a lot time as well, haven't been at the beta team tho.
Cabble for ex. was a weapon whore of the barret, that's why it was too strong until some time ago, it should NEVER happen again with any other weapons.
as an m79er I try to be at the most ballancing possition and even weak MY own weapon if I need it.
Look, personally I don't play much soldat if u can see it or not.. I'm becoming inactive and inactive, I STILL CARE ABOUT SOLDAT THO.
that's why I'm still reading those shits here and writing to you, coz I care, not because I'm a weapon whore or anything like that.

"I've tried it with bots, it's just nonesence."
I mean I've tried to use it against bots, and made them use it,
it's became too strong weapon for close ranges and affective weapon for far ranges, which it SHOULDN'T BE.

and why the hell do you think the bink is so unreasonable and doesn't fix anything?!
Do you have any IDEA how did it helped soldat, how much LESS spraying there is not?!
No you don't, coz you didn't work on this balance, you have no idea how hard we've worked on it and how good it was - still is.

as you've seen already and I've proved it to ya, this weapon ballance shouldn't be changed, just because some people in the beta team complaining about their own weapons don't mean it should be change, you don't like some weapon? change a gun. there'r too balanced now and there's no reason to change it.

and now after this, if you want to attack me personally, go for it, say whatever you want, whichever guns I use, how I use them or whatever.
I know I'm doing it just for soldat, and for not doing a "fix" after the next version released just because of some weapon unballance since of NO TESTINGS.
Thank you,
Buggy.

[-Vis-]

The spas is a wayyyyy too strong,
I mean, atm , in the soldat now it's too strong in my oppinion,
making it faster and stronger would make it unbeatable,
I've tried it with bots, it's just nonesence.

as you've seen already and I've proved it to ya, this weapon ballance shouldn't be changed, just because some people in the beta team complaining about their own weapons don't mean it should be change, you don't like some weapon? change a gun. there'r too balanced now and there's no reason to change it.

Am I the only really really confused person here right now?

[Demonic]

In the first quote, he means "too strong" as in "it has enough damage already". As you may have noticed, the Beta balance Shotgun disembowels enemies within seconds, and is much more easier to use then now.

You can understand Bugs too.. if you spend one year arguing with him about the Weapon Balance

[5th_account]

Wow wow, let's go slowly on this one,
"You claim to be an experianced M79er while running around with minimi in gathers".
You've seen me using Minimi in one gather while I was on the main way, I can't use there m79 as you know and with the lags Des didn't seemed to hit so.. :\
that's not getting even close to the point I had.
I didn't talked about you as a player personaly, you shouldn't too. that's not a way admin should do, nieder a beta tester.

Was mearly pointing out a suspicous case of double standards, which when you think about it is twice as pro as standards! So take it as a compliment :0

anyhow back to our topic,
I'm using spas in this version as well, I ain't talking about vets using it in the right situations, but I see how can it block people, I can see how it kill by one shot if it's very close, I see lots of stuff that you as a gun user can't see.

Yup, it can block pretty effectively in the right hands, one way is by creating a hailstorm of bullets to rain down or fill a route, which is tuned down in the exp. as a result of the decreased fire rate. And generally, no. The spas is not a 1-hit killer. This was something I took into great consideration to avoid when modding the balance. The percentual impact damage dealth to a player is based on 4 things - The pellets' damage value and their speed, how many that hit and what hitboxes those pellets strike. The damage value is static and never changes, but the speed is connected to the player's own momentum, which is added with the value from the .ini file. The impact damage is not effected by the target's momentum relative to the pellets, just to rule that out. I've tried many, many times to replicate a 1-hit kill by letting all 6 pellets stike the head while at full falling speed and running speed with spas boosting. At most I've managed to deal 91% damage in my own balance compared to the 88% in the default one. The only way to achieve a 1-hit kill is by having a massive boost from perhaps an explosion. To remove that posibility the damage value would have to be lowered insane amounts, which would make the shotgun a 3-4 hit kill like the deagles, but with less range and slower fire rate.

And by seeing things that I don't, I cannot agree. You said yourself you've been inactive, and I've noticed that during several versions. What can you see those relatively few times you've acctually played that I haven't..? And you always lull around with 100+ ping on clanwar and gather servers, which would question your views about anything that's related to lag, such as guns and gameplay! =)

"making it faster and stronger would make it unbeatable,"
you see? that's a point I'd like to show you and that's the MAIN REASON I didn't like the idea that you, unexperianced guy at weapon ballance try to do it.
making a weapon faster makes the shots a way stronger,
for ex. if u add +1 speed it means about +5 dmg to spas, which means u've added to it about 30 dmg?! IT'S A LOT! It's too much.!

Where the bloody hell did you get that value from..? While riding piggyback on a faerie across the rainbow to Narnia?! The speed and damage values are relative to eachother, but cannot be moved around with made up ratios and expected to apply on all ranges. If we follow that crazy pattern for the default mod, all pellets from the spas combined does 1417 units in damage, while a single bullet from the minimi does 1436 units, and it's range it pretty much unlimited compared to the spas. Doubting your formula yet?

Ah, and it's ironic you use my lack of experiance as a reason since I'm making the exp. mod based on what works and what used to work, and after taking in lessons of previous versions and the mistakes made.

I ain't sure you've even tested the spas out, and if you did you've ignored it for stupid reasons and I realy don't want to think it's because u'r a weapon ***** ok?
You've been here quite a lot time as well, haven't been at the beta team tho.

Well, now you're closing in on personal attacks which you just lectured me on... Spas might just be the weapon I've done the most extensive tests on after the autos. But what does being a part of the beta crew for a long time have to do with anything? Of the few ones of you that are active, about 80% seems to be map makers and various admins. Of those who acctually play soldat actively and on professional levels, I could count them on my hand.

Cabble for ex. was a weapon ***** of the barret, that's why it was too strong until some time ago, it should NEVER happen again with any other weapons.
as an m79er I try to be at the most ballancing possition and even weak MY own weapon if I need it.
Look, personally I don't play much soldat if u can see it or not.. I'm becoming inactive and inactive, I STILL CARE ABOUT SOLDAT THO.
that's why I'm still reading those ****s here and writing to you, coz I care, not because I'm a weapon ***** or anything like that.

I can't speak for Cbble, but how dare you even accuse me of being baised? Of course I wouldn't want my favourites to be useless, but I respect MM and his creation too much to prioritize myself over all other soldat players. I didn't play this game for 4 years just to **** it up. Some of the best games I've played were where everyone had different weapons, too bad that's pretty uncommon. I would want nothing else for 1.3.2 than completely balanced weapons, and I believe I can do that.

"I've tried it with bots, it's just nonesence."
I mean I've tried to use it against bots, and made them use it,
it's became too strong weapon for close ranges and affective weapon for far ranges, which it SHOULDN'T BE.

Acctually I think it's the reverse. I'm fed up with enemies surviving two solid hits from close-mid range and the pellets doing barely nothing on far range. But it's kinda hard to describe how I feel in words, so blah. Yet to please you, an X-hit kill with the exp. mod takes longer than the same X-hit kill in the default mod due to the added unit in fireinterval.

and why the hell do you think the bink is so unreasonable and doesn't fix anything?!
Do you have any IDEA how did it helped soldat, how much LESS spraying there is not?!
No you don't, coz you didn't work on this balance, you have no idea how hard we've worked on it and how good it was - still is.

Ye, there's slightly less spraying than before, but the spraying is related to so much more than just the amount of selfbink. Look at the minimi! It got colossal selfbink and it's common knowledge that minimi is the last resort in clanwars where you put morale, fair play and reputation aside and go nuts with spraying for the sake of winning. Everyone makes fun of and dispites most of the cze and polish clans that aren't that good, but since they all use autos and spray, go far in leagues and regulary beat the best clans. For example the reason there practically were no spray in 1.1.5 was due to the semi users being rewarded for high skill, resulting in an efficiency that could beat spraying. But autos were still effective without having to spray, and could not be considered an underdog. The majority of the vets agree on 1.1.5 to be the best version ever. Today, a great reasons why spraying exist is because the "maximum efficiency" of the semis aren't much greater than the "normal efficiency" of the autos. One must have a great day to be able to take on top class spray. It's very easy to go far with an auto, but utterly impossible to win SCTFL or TNL-A by not having both the main routers use autos.

As for me not working on today's balance, I can't really see what it matters since I've played several hundred hours on it I'd bet. Since you yourself claim to be very inactive I believe it's safe to say I've played a lot more and is damn more informed in the current situation than you.

as you've seen already and I've proved it to ya, this weapon ballance shouldn't be changed, just because some people in the beta team complaining about their own weapons don't mean it should be change, you don't like some weapon? change a gun. there'r too balanced now and there's no reason to change it.

I'm sorry, after I discredited your crazy claims there were nothing left, so where were these proffs? I've must've missed them. >_>
But it still doesn't explain why you think it's fine, ignores M79 overusage, ignores spray, argue about overpowered weapons, then say it's all fine again. Why do you keep contradicting yourself? I can't tell if you want things to be changed or not.

[SDFilm]

it's common knowledge that minimi is the last resort in clanwars where you put morale, fair play and reputation aside and go nuts with spraying for the sake of winning.

Excuse me!? You are implying that I use a 'last ditch' weapon that has no moral standards? Go over to the M79 if you want a true noob (ok, beginners) weapon. You don't see hoards of Majors picking up the Minimi and getting easy kills even when they do find out that you can tap the mouse to lessen the self-bink affect, although by tapping the mouse you could say its already having an effect. Unless you're talking about R/S, spraying is a dangerous tactic for the sprayer as well, because you leave yourself very vulnerable when someone inevitably rushes over while you may be reloading which is why  the Steyr is arguably better to use if you ever spray in a serious match. I find it much better to keep loaded and not giving my position away which will leave me vulnerable to rifle fire, LAW and other counter-spray.

People use the Minimi for fighting as well, not just as a 'support' weapon. Supporting fire is only really usefull in R/S.

[:.shadow.:]

Uh.. i think this discussion is a little weird. Theres a guy arguing with 2 mods. Who were the ones who balanced the game in the first place... (weird fact number one). Weird fact number two is why are we talking about the spas. The spas is only useful when no one is using the m79. And also. If you play the spas right you can defeat it with any weapon. Excluding the Socom . Anyways i think we should be arguing about the overuse of the m79 if anything.

Peace

[5th_account]

SDFilm, it's vastly different between clanwars and public. That's why I mentioned it applied for clanwars. In clanwars minimi isn't used for much else than high-damage spraying, in public with a lot of people it doesn't turn as many heads, sort of speak.

[SDFilm]

Apart from the Majors, when did I ever mention publics?

If spraying is that much of a problem, then the bullets of all weapons should loose power when over a certain range (like more than a screen away). Infact I think something like that was introduced in 1.3 or 1.3.1 . If people can't 'profit' from long range shooting (apart from barret) then they won't spray as much. I don't think that the Minimi's (or any other weapons) normal fighting power should be compromised to reduce spraying, weather its large blanket spraying with autos or more powerful but less coverage spraying with the Rugers long range.

[Gold]

I like the spas how it is, it might need a bit of a touch up but its quite alright now and rather easy to get away from with its bad aim.

[5th_account]

That wouldn't solve the on-screen spraying and triple autos on even small maps like death, SDFilm.

[SDFilm]

On-screen (short/mid range) spray is just bad aiming. You might be able to injure multiple people with spray, but you can't win unless you kill them, 5th_account.

On topic: I agree with gold. It could do with a small touch up, but nothing large.

[5th_account]

Not sure if you got my drift, but spraying in clanwars is ment to prevent enemies from passing you alive. And of course it can kill, that's the point of on-screen spraying since it's much more accurate than randomly shooting outside the screen.

Hmm, what's the on-topic issue? Spas or the balance in general?

[O.R.I.O.N.]

Nope, it was just about the Spas being too strong.  Key word "was".

[Bugs Revenge]

Look, again, there's nothing against you or ur unexperiance at the beta team.
I've mentioned it just because of the implications of the gamethat our last weaponmod has made.
I've mentioned that +1 speed = +3 dmg ONLY ABOUT SPAS.
there's a huge difference betweet the way Minimi works and spas does.
Spas shots about 10 shots of Minimi at one bullet,
and the fact that you'r making it a way stronger, while adding one point to fire interval realy doesn't helps, it maybe makes it  a bit weaker, but the adding dmg making a way stronger with or without this 1 fireinterval.
I think, as i've said already spas is already fine and even overpowered, there's NO REASON for changing it, and as u've already said "isn't not underpowered, but just strange"
I mean, wtf?! just because of weapon is a bit strange to one man he's gonna change its whole way of working?!

and again, you can't talk about me playing with 100 ping as you see me coz i've played already and still playing on Israeli's servers as well, and I know exactly how is playing with 33 \ 16 ping, and it's great and bla bla but, there's nothing it can do about my ways of view to the game.

and about the autos, so as u've already said it's helped it,
People avoid spraying as much as they did,
the weapon is absolutly useable and again, THERE'S NO REASON FOR CHANGING IT.

I'm fed up with it and have not the power and nor the time to argue with you about it.
you can say whatever you want but I advise you to think once again, to test it with more ppl and see their oppinions as well, I've said mine.