M79 and Barret Unfair?

[popsofctown]

I'd also like to say for record that binking barreters rarely ever works. Far too many times in the past I hit a barreter with multiple (4-8) mp5, steyr, or ak47 shots, and he still got a direct shot. It seems like I have a better chance killing him if I don't try to bink him. However if I try to stay far away, I still run the moderately high risk of still getting shot.

I like the idea of tossing the barret and m79 for new weapons. I don't wanna say I am completely for it, because I will always be open to new suggestions. However, tossing the barret for a sawed-off shotgun is certainly a working solution IMO.

Again, the chances of that happening aren't likely. Maybe in your experiences you believe the gun is overpowered becuase of those lucky shots, but you cannot say that for the swhole Soldat community because of what happened to you. Either the people who got those good shots at you were either hacking, or they simply got lucky. Bink is definitely a balance to the gun even though it's not guaranteed, cause the shots go in random directions, and there is a chance that the shot will still go on target. Try it yourself, and if your shot misses when you get hit with one bullet, then you know bink does work. MofoNofo has the right idea of trying it out for yourself instead of needlessly complaining about its one-hit kill. And there is already high movementacc, so even if you barely move with the cursor virtually straight on your target, you can still make an embarassing miss.

, says the barreteer.

You know, barrets don't have to stay constantly moving.  it's easy to make the movement acc a nonfactor by proning or slowing down. 

papercut paints his scenario of an auto pumping 6 bullets into a barret who still hits him.  You (twistkill) paint a scenario of a stray bullet hitting you and instantly making you miss. 

papecut's scenario is simply closer to the truth.  i used to love the barret.  bink never caused me any trouble.  if i realized i was getting binked, i would often simply move closer (a strange action for a sniper holder) to ensure the bullet hit.  I was limited only by my own skill, and that limit got weaker every day.  i floated up to the top of the scoreboards in pubs, even though it was the early days of my soldat experience. 
Then i took a break from soldat for about 4 months and played C&C, and my barret skills disappeared.  i've mispelled barret about three times by now. 

[Twistkill]

, says the barreteer.

You know, barrets don't have to stay constantly moving.  it's easy to make the movement acc a nonfactor by proning or slowing down. 

papercut paints his scenario of an auto pumping 6 bullets into a barret who still hits him.  You (twistkill) paint a scenario of a stray bullet hitting you and instantly making you miss. 

papecut's scenario is simply closer to the truth.  i used to love the barret.  bink never caused me any trouble.  if i realized i was getting binked, i would often simply move closer (a strange action for a sniper holder) to ensure the bullet hit.  I was limited only by my own skill, and that limit got weaker every day.

Well you and papercut believe what you want. I'm done trying to argue with you guys who will never come to an agreement on some 1 hit kill weapons which are part of the game.

[JaMeS]

I beleive that m79 is indeed unfair, as it reloads about twice as fast as barret, and generally is more effective as it can push your enemies further back, or even 1 hit K-O them
However, i dont beleive barret is unfair, as is very slow, and although its accurate, if you miss, youll probbaly get killed in the reloading time

[papercut]

, says the barreteer.

You know, barrets don't have to stay constantly moving.  it's easy to make the movement acc a nonfactor by proning or slowing down. 

papercut paints his scenario of an auto pumping 6 bullets into a barret who still hits him.  You (twistkill) paint a scenario of a stray bullet hitting you and instantly making you miss. 

papecut's scenario is simply closer to the truth.  i used to love the barret.  bink never caused me any trouble.  if i realized i was getting binked, i would often simply move closer (a strange action for a sniper holder) to ensure the bullet hit.  I was limited only by my own skill, and that limit got weaker every day.

Well you and papercut believe what you want. I'm done trying to argue with you guys who will never come to an agreement on some 1 hit kill weapons which are part of the game.

If god mode was a part of the game, would you use it? "Awesome! the ability to not die! the game is so much better now!" Don't you think it makes the game a little more exciting to put yourself more at risk? Doesn't the tension of getting sprayed at with bullets and figthing for your life make the game fun? Is it really necessary to find the best way to win?

[Twistkill]

If god mode was a part of the game, would you use it? "Awesome! the ability to not die! the game is so much better now!"

This is an extreme situation that is not clearly plausible or relative to the topic, and I already said I'm done arguing. I never intended to start an argument about it, I was just offering what I thought of the issue, and now you're continuing to egg me on. Please, everyone continue on with the topic and disregard my posts with papercut here.

[MofoNofo]

Pfft stop going on about those weapons.
What about the ? What a hax weapon, it should be taken out of the game.
You're trying to someone then like  and then like  falls out of my hands, i switch to    , but he steals it with a  and kills me 

[M.rSnow]

I though about it some, and sniper (in case of mod) and m79 are both good in tunnels. Like this, i created a tunnel system map whit bots, (2 floors) and wen i use m79 or Barret every1 was just dieing in front of me (insane bots i modded them to the highest imaginable) because in narrow tunnels (whit out Realistic of course) all shots bounce, and the m79, well it shoots over cliffs and gives u a huge advantage of ur enemy. The odd thing is that sniper don't collide as easy as etc mp5. Whitish means that u can kill about 3 players in 1 shot. (whits i did, whit luck of course) The m79 can only... Well it can take about 10 players if there all in the same place. But why ain't mp5 better than barret in tunnels?! Short distances are what they made for so instead of making Barret and m79 weaker i think that the other weapons shall be better.

[Cappy]

Only weapon I think is unfair is the M79. But still, I hardly complain about it. If your good, you know how to beat it. Otherwise...stop complaining.

[papercut]

Only weapon I think is unfair is the M79. But still, I hardly complain about it. If your good, you know how to beat it. Otherwise...stop complaining.

I heard that like a hundred thousand times. This isn't a "wahwahwah make the barret and m79 suck so i can win wahwahwah" thread. I'm just saying that because people who get killed by an 'easy to get killed by' weapon, they use the same weapon on other people. Then the popularity shoots up to about 75% of people using it. It's ridiculous. People gotta start varying their weapon choices to make soldat a little more exciting.

[popsofctown]

Look, my big problem with the m79 is its role. 
In a shooter game, you try to make all the weapons be better in specific situations.  There's a slight factor of "gun that kills many people" against "gun that kills one guy quick", but generally you focus on ranges. 

You have the sniper rifle as the longest range gun.  You make the wep only good at very long range.  The barret is pretty much like that.
Then you have various forms of longer range guns.  Soldat's got the ruger, steyr, ak, minime there.  Those guns are supposed to give you an upper hand if you are far away from a closer range gun.  When a barret isn't camping, it falls in this category too in soldat, because the's guns are limited by screen size.  The guns slightly vary their range, clip size, etc to keep it interesting.  That's what shooter games do with guns in the same range class.  You vary them a bit.  The steyr can survive in shorter ranges a lot better than the ak can. 
Then you have the guns that fall just below that.  If one of the longer range guns stay to far away, they need skill and maybe luck to win.  In their prime range, bink and bullets brings them victory.  In this category, soldat has the deagles, m79, and mp5.
And then you have the shortest range gun.  The crazy killing gun, the shotgun of halo, the trenchgun of call of duty.. you get it.  It's usually a one hit kill shot gun.  Maybe two hits.  When you can smell eachother's breath, no one has a chance.  For soldat, that primary is the spas-12.
(mini-gun skipped, because its currently nerfed)

Sounds pretty good right?  Soldat is a good, varied shooter. 

But then, two seconds after release, someone figured out that at closest ranges, the m79 kills faster than the shotgun.  The freakin' nade launcher!  So a gun from the level 2 range can beat range 1 in its own territory.  Time is pretzelled, the m79 killed its own grandfather, and now it is a shotgun and a grenade launcher. 

Is it balanced?  Well, yeah, it is.  But it's not balanced by a lack of ability to kill outside of it prescribed range.  It's balanced by clip size and reload time, and (some) self-damage.  These are both things that should be used to shake up the weapon set a little, but its should NOT override a gun's appropriate range. 
The nature of the m79's limitations (as compared to spas's) are inappropriate.  The spas can kill more people at short range but the m79 can kill one easier.  The m79 has been told "ok little guy, you can be a god-weapon even in the spas's golden range, but you can only do it once every three seconds".  If you really read this whole thing, us the word killz in ur post.  If a game has fewer people or more people, balance should remain the same.  As it is (mostly) the only reason to use the spas instead of the m79 is so that you can kill several people before reloading, or because you want to be able to miss.  addendum:(spas can also sometimes function in slightly longer ranges than spas)  And being able to miss becomes less important once you improve your aim.

The m79 should not murder people in shotgun range.  The shotgun should murder people in shotgun range.  I believe these guns each need to move to their roles.  The m79 needs weakened short range damage, and the spas could really be more of a short-short range gun if its damage was turned up and its shot speed was turned down.  (+plus some fire rate too.)




If you read these whole thing, i'll applaud u.

[MofoNofo]

If I ever see you in a server, I am so switching to M79.

You have to admit... M79/Barrett is awesomely good on all lower paths in clan wars...

[Veritas]

Here's the thing:
The m79\ret could be conceivably be called unfair if it marginalized skill, that is to say, a player with the m79 could beat a player with an aug of equal or greater skill consistently.
To test whether this is true, do the following:
1. /join #sna.gather and !add
2. Pick up your m79 or ret and play.
Chances are, assuming you are the average m79 pub user, you're going to get completely wiped out. You're likely to find that your concept that the m79 > Spas is wrong as well. Indeed I would say that the Spas >>> m79 in most situations, and needs tuning down if anything.

The point is, coming from my experience with the NA clan scene, there is no imbalance with the m79 or ret (unless you're hacking, but thats another story.) I can't really speak for the balance for public or r/s matches.

[popsofctown]

its clear that you didnt read all i said.  i said the m79 is equal to the spas.

Date Posted: January 14, 2007, 07:26:45 PMu dont have to read that long post, but dont refer to it if u didnt.

[papercut]

I read the whole jawn piece.

The spas can kill more people at short range but the m79 can kill one easier.

Absolutely true. It's also very common that you come in contact with one enemy at a time anyway, rather than a group of 3 or 4, in which the m79er/barreter that has to kill all them is screwed.

But even if I were to come in contact with 3 or 4 other guys, while using any of the other weapons, I'd be in a lot of trouble too. It bothers me how an m79 and barret can make their enemies carefree one hit kill targets, and just walk down the street taking down everyone one by one. Where as with just about any other gun, Your put in a duel arena where you are in the suspense of "who's gonna win this fight?". Coming in contact with barrets and m79s are just simply click, boom, dead.

I dunno if I mentioned this already, but I drew up a picture of an unescapable situation concerning the m79.



I think non-m79ers are very familiar with these types of situations.

poor mp5 dude only got to hit the m79er once. (cheap)

[Mr. Domino]

I dunno if I mentioned this already, but I drew up a picture of an unescapable situation concerning the m79.



I think non-m79ers are very familiar with these types of situations.

This is hilarious. This is why you fail. Any player just mindlessly charging into range deserves to die -- you're not playing smart, you walking into a player with a height advantage, and you're racing into an enemy using a close range weapon. Think before you play. You'll find yourself whining a lot less about the M79.

[papercut]

okay well let's have a look. Because the players arent color coded by their weapons like in my example, It isn't very likely that I will know instantly that that guy was an m79er. He could have easily been handled if he were using an ak74 (which are both similar colored guns btw.)

However let's revert back to the same situation. Suppose I did see he was an m79er, and decide to quickly make a turn around.



Oops. That plan didnt work either. Didn't even hit him that time. You got any more elaborate plans? or is "playing smart" the only information you can give me?

[Apocalypse]

wow your a complete idiot.... the barret is a sniper rifle, you got shot cuz you didnt keep your head down.. and you died to a m79 cuz either A. you rushed him. or B. you let him run up to you.

dont touch my  and dont touch peoples  cuz you cant duck/run away.

[ZWZ]

lol blue = nub, he'll get killed by that m79er every time if he plays like that.
 If he saw the m79er coming for him, he could easily get out of range WHILE shooting back at him. This scenario is user error, not gun imbalance.

post a demo of you playing, it'll be easier to fix your game that way.

EDIT: this image applies:

[M.rSnow]

nice gifs and pics but ain't this tread for solving problems and not showing them? Anyway why don't replace em if they are so unfair.. (i know they are but i don't care so much i play R/S) any way u can always making the other weapons better against just particularly those.. an AUG can shoot m79 shots.. and so on... (the point of this message is to make u come on right trace again)

[ZWZ]

nice gifs and pics but ain't this tread for solving problems and not showing them? Anyway why don't replace em if they are so unfair.. (i know they are but i don't care so much i play R/S) any way u can always making the other weapons better against just particularly those.. an AUG can shoot m79 shots.. and so on... (the point of this message is to make u come on right trace again)

The point is the m79 is completely fair and doesnt need a change. Most "problems" with the gun are observed from poor players (even if you played from beta or whatever, you can still be a bad player)