M79 and Barret Unfair?

[hit]

I use the AK, when it comes to barreters i usually get as close to them as possible, it helps to run through them as that throws them off balance. With the m79 i just stay further away and try and stay above them because the m79s distance is pretty poor.
I have nothing against barreters, and i dont really care about m79ers that much, the only thing that annoys me about m79ers are the ones who run up to you and blow you up at short range, no skill involved at all.

[papercut]

It doesnt need to change, the people that use them all the time need to change. Why is the m79 the only gun that needs all these strategies to avoid? If the red guy were using any other gun, he could have been easily taken out by the blue guy, in either of the situations, gven the time to kill him.

"bleh bleh, blue guys an idiot, he did everything wrong, bleh bleh"

He doesn't exactly have a lot of options. I dunno if you noticed, but The blue guy doesnt instantly home into view every single guy with the m79 at that point he decided to make a quick turn around. Soldat doesnt let you do that fast enough. Thus he was trying to get out of range, and shoot at him at the same time. IT DIDNT WORK. Numerous times I tried multiple similar strategies. Half of them worked, half of them didnt. But as popsofctown claimed several posts ago, the guns are largely based on human error. They are hard to use at first, but if you can practice enough with them, they become unsurmountable.

[ZWZ]

I don't understand how the gun with one of the shortest ranges in the game gets critized for being able to win at close range. The further you are from the m79er, the less and less of a chance he has of hitting you, the more time you have to dodge, and so on. If someone point blanks you, the next person with an auto will have a much easier time killing him, if he doesnt kill himself doing it.

 Consider in your senerio the m79 misses, and you go right by him. What's the result? you have 0% damage, and he's probably near death. I'm sure that doesnt get factored in, because everyone has godlike aim with the m79 right?

[Horang]

Well the M79 does have an insane 'luck' factor to it which can't exactly be balanced 

[Zues120]

my only probelm is the fact that a M79er can run into me, and while like, not even a centimeter away, shoot, blow me to bits and him bearly takeing damage, now that might just be lagging, but if so, Damn i need to find better servers cause that ALWAYS happens to me. I aint gonna rant, but I will say this, Not all levels are one, flat plain... so to all you idiots who go "DUIUURRR donyt run into them L2P N00B" the only time i DO run in to them is when I go over a barrier, or a tunnel. same thing with barrets...

My only compilation to barrets: sniper rifles aint made for a 2D playing field, and you should change the barret name, cause the gun we useing aint a barret... barrets fire semi-auto, have fast reloads, blah blah blah...

Ok 13 year olds, go on and flame me.

[ZWZ]

From the beta changes, they are increasing m79 damage, so self damage should increase as well. It should decrease the sloppy point blank kills.

[popsofctown]

I don't understand how the gun with one of the shortest ranges in the game gets critized for being able to win at close range.

The gun can still kill people at mid range, and it doesn't have the attributes of a powerful short range gun.  If the gun was made to be the games absolute-closest range gun, and lost its midrange power, i would be fine with that.  but of course that doesnt make sense, because its a grenade launcher. 
The gun gets good one hit kills at mid-range and point blank.  it needs to pick one or the other.  The gun as it is, gives you the option of one hit kills at very close, no-miss range,  or killing people fairly well at midrange (note: the gun is fine as is or perhaps slightly weak at midrange).

The m79 is like being able to hold the saw and deagles at the same time. 

If someone point blanks you, the next person with an auto will have a much easier time killing him, if he doesnt kill himself doing it.

Splash damage is a positive factor for discouraging close range m79 shots, true.  i would like to see it jacked up. 
But remember, whenever you fight anything but a one-hit-kill gun, you usually are damaged anyway.  You have few engagements with autos and walk away 100% health.

Consider in your senerio the m79 misses, and you go right by him. What's the result? you have 0% damage, and he's probably near death. I'm sure that doesnt get factored in, because everyone has godlike aim with the m79 right?

yes, the barret and m79 are both balanced by a lack of second tries.  But the better players get, the less they need second tries. 
Anyway, ugly reload time/small clip, which make missing painful, don't affect whether a gun is short range or long range.  So that doesn't pertain to my personal vendetta with its best of both worlds.


Date Posted: January 15, 2007, 06:09:04 PM

From the beta changes, they are increasing m79 damage, so self damage should increase as well. It should decrease the sloppy point blank kills.

Sweet

[papercut]

Yeah the m79 can kill people at long range and mid range far faster than any other gun can because all it takes is a single projectile to kill someone with. I dont have a chance in the world of killing someone with any other gun, even if the both of us have 100% accuracy all the time.

As more and more play soldat and adapt to the way the game is played, almost everyone maintains the same accuracy. But M79s/barrets get the job done faster than any other gun.

[ZWZ]

Midrange shots aren't 100%, unless they are above you and you sit there and take it. even further, it gets harder and harder. The spas has no problem in midrange either, in ctf it's knockback is invaluable, boosting teammates or slowing down the efc.  The m79 is far from replacing the spas in any way, they both have their uses.

Autos are very strong when used properly, m79 can potential kill faster, but autos are more consistant, versatile, and unlike the m79, increases in power exponentially when more than just you on your team use it.

If you just look at how many shots / kills, any one hit kill gun would be terribly unbalanced

[popsofctown]

i agree, they both have their uses, and are both balanced when all ranges and situations are taken into account.,  i simply believe the spas should win the most at very close range.

As it is, m79 is like 95% chance of a hit at close range and 50% for the tougher midrange shots.  I think the m79 should be at about 80% even for tougher midrange shots, and 0% at point blank

i beleive the gun currently is balanced, i just hate the way it is balanced.

[1010011010]

Everyone who says the M79 is a newb weapon has probably never (extensively) played R/S, because you can hardly get any good M79 shots off in R/S, depending on the players, map and server. Nobody factors in the skill of the players when they do this. I use the M79 in R/S servers, and it's a whole lot harder than playing with an AUG.

For example, let's say for me to kill you, (I have the M79 and you have the Steyr) starting stationary, on an even plain,  same height and skill level, I have to;

(Times are just for example. Most players can do all the steps in less than one or two seconds and not all of the steps apply for all situations.)

Gain height (roughly 1, 2 seconds for decent height)
Build momentum for range (roughly 1 second)
Be ready to take out a secondary/grenade if it misses (reaction time)
Take cover if all else fails (depends on map, situation)
Aim (while calculating distance, cursor, speed, height and possible outcomes) and fire (1, 2, 3 second)

You need to;

Back up (roughly 1 second)
Aim (while calculating cursor and distance) and fire (reaction time)

That's it.

Not to mention the Steyr has decent accuracy and low arch. The M79'S arch, while always the same, takes time to learn in every separate situation. There's no "Okay, I missed. I need to adjust my next shot." That's for automatics. Single-shot weapons can't just adjust to the aim.

Targets (and yourself) are always moving, and even moving slightly slower or faster than you were during the initial shot can break aim and make you miss. You can't stand still when you're using the M79, unless you're camping. You're almost always taking shots from places you can't reach with the low range weapon.

Speed is everything. No speed means no momentum, and no speed means no range. Saying a grenade launcher shouldn't kill at point blank. We just need to factor in SELF damage.

[Mr. Domino]

It doesnt need to change, the people that use them all the time need to change. Why is the m79 the only gun that needs all these strategies to avoid?

Every gun has strategies to avoid it. You're obviously just way too dense and stubborn to realize that despite FIFTEEN PAGES of people telling you otherwise. Instead of being a smart player, instead of striving to be a better player, you choose to whine... and whine... and whine... across some FIFTEEN PAGES of moaning and crying in an Internet forum. Every example you have brought up in this thread just show how poor your playing is -- you choose your weapons poorly, you don't approach enemies intelligently, and you just lack the skill to play well. You will never learn because, if after some FIFTEEN PAGES of whining you can't even begin to reconsider... "Hey, perhaps these dozens of people are right, and I am playing like a 'noob,'" then you would at least realize that your approach to the game is completely and totally wrong, and your arguments baseless to a fault.

Do not think I am attempting to insult or offend you exactly, but your argument, again, over some FIFTEEN PAGES of whining, is beyond dense and stupid. You are the George W. Bush of Soldat. "It can't be me! The overwhelming majority of players must be wrong! Surely, for I am a '1337' player incapable of making poor decisions or dying at the hands of another... unless there is something wrong with the game balance! Eureka! That's it!"

[1010011010]

It doesnt need to change, the people that use them all the time need to change. Why is the m79 the only gun that needs all these strategies to avoid?

Every gun has strategies to avoid it. You're obviously just way too dense and stubborn to realize that despite FIFTEEN PAGES of people telling you otherwise. Instead of being a smart player, instead of striving to be a better player, you choose to whine... and whine... and whine... across some FIFTEEN PAGES of moaning and crying in an Internet forum. Every example you have brought up in this thread just show how poor your playing is -- you choose your weapons poorly, you don't approach enemies intelligently, and you just lack the skill to play well. You will never learn because, if after some FIFTEEN PAGES of whining you can't even begin to reconsider... "Hey, perhaps these dozens of people are right, and I am playing like a 'noob,'" then you would at least realize that your approach to the game is completely and totally wrong, and your arguments baseless to a fault.

Do not think I am attempting to insult or offend you exactly, but your argument, again, over some FIFTEEN PAGES of whining, is beyond dense and stupid. You are the George W. Bush of Soldat. "It can't be me! The overwhelming majority of players must be wrong! Surely, for I am a '1337' player incapable of making poor decisions or dying at the hands of another... unless there is something wrong with the game balance! Eureka! That's it!"

Bear/bare my children. Depending on which bear/bare you want.



Date Posted: January 15, 2007, 08:40:02 PM

okay well let's have a look. Because the players arent color coded by their weapons like in my example, It isn't very likely that I will know instantly that that guy was an m79er. He could have easily been handled if he were using an ak74 (which are both similar colored guns btw.)

However let's revert back to the same situation. Suppose I did see he was an m79er, and decide to quickly make a turn around.



Oops. That plan didnt work either. Didn't even hit him that time. You got any more elaborate plans? or is "playing smart" the only information you can give me?

Seeing as you're controlling that situation in the image, we can assume a good player would have retreated, and then after gaining distance, fired on the enemy. It's human error, and nothing is wrong with the game.

[papercut]

@Mr. Domino - Then explain to me after 2 years of playing soldat, and 15 pages worth of "whining" and replies, what I should do? Take that pic in my example. Just look at the terrain itself. If that m79 guy has good aim, then you are shit out of luck. You dont have a chance. If you can take that example, and find a decent way for any other gun to kill that m79 guy without dying, then please do so.

-- you choose your weapons poorly,
How are my weapon choices poor? Are you insinuating that the mp5 is a bad weapon choice and an m79 is not?

-- you dont approach enemies intelligently
If you would like to edit that image, and show me how i should have approached my enemy any more 'intelligently', no one is stopping you. I dont see any other options than trying to get through as fast as I can and praying I dont get shot, or running away.

"Dodging", "Playing Smart" "Getting away" are incredibly vague strategies.

I'm not gonna settle for "hey maybe im playing like a noob" because I dont learn anything from that, other than supposedly being a bad soldat player. That's like trying to learn to skate, and just saying "hey I cant do it" and not try to learn. Thats stupid BS and should not happen.

"It can't be me! The overwhelming majority of players must be wrong! Surely, for I am a '1337' player incapable of making poor decisions or dying at the hands of another... unless there is something wrong with the game balance! Eureka! That's it!"

Again, Feel free to tell me what the right decision should have been. I saw two options, and neither of them worked. Do you see any other options?

[ZWZ]

I whipped this up in a few seconds, so bear with me.

Since the m79er just quickly changed directions, his arc won't be assisted by speed by much. Since you saw him coming, and in this scenario we assume he has god like aim, you can do the best possible choice = while firing back at him, you go as high as you can, and as far to the left as you can. Even with godlike aim, he can't overcome the arc of the m79. Even though the bullet could potentially go half and hit you, his arc has to apex a lot lower so he doesn't just explode the grenade on the ceiling of the cavern.
With experience, you know what this arc is , but the easy way would just be to go up and away. The m79 grenade misses you, and you are counter attacking at the same time.

Any questions?

EDIT: yellow line is arc of m79 grenade, light blue is bullets from mp5

[Mr. Domino]

You are not listening and considering opposing viewpoints. Let's go through with the examples to show how stubborn and/or blind you are:

-- you choose your weapons poorly,
How are my weapon choices poor? Are you insinuating that the mp5 is a bad weapon choice and an m79 is not?

I wrote on page 14:

This is hilarious. This is why you fail. Any player just mindlessly charging into range deserves to die -- you're not playing smart, you walking into a player with a height advantage, and you're racing into an enemy using a close range weapon. Think before you play. You'll find yourself whining a lot less about the M79.

So, as clearly stated, you fail here in part because "you're racing into an enemy using a close range weapon" while he wields one as well. I'm not the only one in this horrible thread pointing out how stupid it is to use an HK against the M79. Yet, you continuously overlook such advice and continue to whine in circles, here again asking, "How are my weapon choices poor?" We've told you why. You continue ignore the advice.

-- you dont approach enemies intelligently
If you would like to edit that image, and show me how i should have approached my enemy any more 'intelligently', no one is stopping you. I dont see any other options than trying to get through as fast as I can and praying I dont get shot, or running away.

"Dodging", "Playing Smart" "Getting away" are incredibly vague strategies.

I'm not gonna settle for "hey maybe im playing like a noob" because I dont learn anything from that, other than supposedly being a bad soldat player. That's like trying to learn to skate, and just saying "hey I cant do it" and not try to learn. Thats stupid BS and should not happen.

You haven't learned anything from this thread. As mentioned above, there are DOZENS of people giving you advice, and all you continue to do is whine at them. For the nth time, you beat close range weapons with long range ones. You don't make stupid choices such as blindly running into a short range weapon with one-hit kill potential and think the odds are in your favor.

Wow. That sounds so familiar. Why, yes, in fact I said THE SAME EXACT THING way back on PAGE 6 of this trash heap:

No M79 is frustrating because if you run along towards the enemy's base in ctf and you come across an m79er, there is no time for you to get away from the m79ers range and its like a free shot for the m79er.

Don't run across the map blind. If you're that careless of the enemy and surroundings, you deserve to die. It's a war game, and thinking you should be able to dash across the map so quickly and easily without any threats waiting for you just doesn't make sense.

Ah, but my Spidey Whiney sense tingles! I picture a response: "Wah! But why can't I just charge blindly into an M79 and win!? It's sooooooo unfair!" Deal with it. EVERY GUN HAS WEAKNESSES AND STRENGTHS. The fact that you continue to insist on using the MP5 tells me you have no experience learning what those advantages and disadvantages are and will not adjust your gameplan accordingly. As you yourself said way back on page 5:

@Mr. Domino - I can evade them every once in a while but its not guaranteed.

That's right. You CAN do it. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. That is the game. You obviously cannot handle it, else you would have listened to all of the people offering advice instead of regurgitating the same whiney spiel. All we can do is offer advice on the best general way to take on threats, but that's not going to grant you the skill needed alone to be able to improve your skill at evading, targeting, and decision making. Instead of going on and on and on and on and on moaning "Why for this gun so unbalanced!?" you should point the finger at yourself and instead ask yourself "What am I doing wrong? How can I handle situations better?"

[popsofctown]

did that show up?  (im not tech savvy)

Date Posted: January 16, 2007, 06:17:17 PMi tried to post a picture, it didnt work

Date Posted: January 16, 2007, 06:17:53 PMhow do u draw an edit to the dot picture?

Date Posted: January 16, 2007, 06:21:27 PMnvm, forget pictures, i'll just tell u wut i drew. 

To play devil's advocate, in the most recent picture submitted, the m79 could go down and left a little and get a clean shot, but get shot up.

But as i said i was playing devil's advocate.  the mp5er (who, yes, papercut, ought to have gotten a steyr or minime if he hates m79's) could've flown up and left for the perfect solution. 

I am not worried about situations like that, im concerned with close-range m79ing. 

I adapt to the game, and actually don't have issues fighting the m79. 
I just oppose it in a weird, theoretical way.  Thus, it doesn't upset me enough to use caps lock as much as most of ya'll seem to.

[1010011010]

Papercut, by your logic, I should always win against you if you use a M79 and I use a MP5, simply because you're using a M79. Deal with it. You should get this worthless thread locked before you further humiliate yourself.

[popsofctown]

Papercut, by your logic, I should always win against you if you use a M79 and I use a MP5, simply because you're using a M79. Deal with it. You should get this worthless thread locked before you further humiliate yourself.

thats pretty harsh.  you should respect people's right to express an opinion you disagree with.  each of you just have different opinions.  you can't demand that someone agree with you just because you and a majority of posters can have ganged up on him. 

He isn't stupid or inferior because he has a minority opinion.  And he isn't humiliating himself by expressing it.  alienating himself? maybe.   Until you build a computer that can calculate possibilites and show hard evidence that you are right and he is wrong, he has equal rights to call you wrong and himself right.

[Mr. Domino]

you should respect people's right to express an opinion you disagree with.

Tell the OP that. He not only repeatedly ignores all of the advice given to him, but he demands that other players change their weapon choices and strategies to suit his inability to cope. Instead of learning to play the game and play it well, he wants the public at large to cripple themselves when he can't handle certain situations. He has no respect for the game's balance and for everyone in the world playing Soldat capable of killing him. He does not give one second of thought to everyone wasting time trying to help him understand how to beat the weapons which give him trouble, instead whining the same whines over 15 pages and telling those people who took the time to offer advice that they're wrong.

each of you just have different opinions.

This isn't a subjective opinion here that he's whining about. It's just page after page of excuses as to why he cannot handle certain weapons and certain opponents.