M79 and Barret Unfair?

[Mr. Domino]

I think it should be locked and the key points put into the/a rules topic to stop some newbie coming in and starting the arguement all over.

I requested this be locked after papercut bumped and linked his own whiney thread (this own) from within yet another whiney thread about a month or so ago. Doesn't look like that's going to happen.

[papercut]

Not reading any of these posts, my opinion is that those two guns are very unfair.

An opinion is never wrong or right. So he can't possibly be stupid for having an opinion. Soldat has 100x more information than this thread does. He can't be stupid or wrong for using the strongest source of info, and not it's competitor.

i think this thread goes around in circles...

It definitely is. I keep provoking the argument to make the ending post for this thread go like:

"Hey maybe he is right. maybe the gun really is unfair"

So that m79ers will see this thread and see that it may be a bad idea to use the m79/barret over and over, which was my goal since the beginning. I have an intention for this thread, but all these guys who are so persistent in fighting against me aren't getting any other benefit than "appearing right". I dont care if you think I am wrong, because finding all these ways to prove that I am wrong is just making my goal incredibly hard to achieve.

I know how to take on M79ers, so don't think I'm another one of those random majors that whine because he can't put together the brain cells to counter them; I was just explaining how the M79 can be annoying, even to a decent player.

Yeah, I am sure we all know how to take on m79ers, but you have to admit that the m79/barret certainly puts you in far more "high risk" situations than any other gun does. It will drive me crazy when an m79er/barreter can shoot me at the same time as I shoot him, but I still lose. I could simply use the m79 or barret to give me the same hand as them, but that takes away the more enjoyable situations, of a steyr vs ak74 fight, or a desert eagles vs. ruger fight, or an mp5 vs minimi fight. It would be nice if I used the m79 or barret to be in par with everyone who uses them, but I dont enjoy using the guns at all. And my common desert eagles, and mp5, and steyr just doesn't keep up with killing m79ers/barreters like m79s and barrets do. I dont want to have to quit the game if the only way I can have a better chance at competing is I have to use a gun that I particularly do not enjoy.

So here I am with my topic, and my theory of why it is not a good idea to use barrets and m79s, so that people may be convinced (as opposed to whining, complaining and demanding, as most of you so crudely put it) to use more enjoyable weapons like the rest of the soldat arsenal, and we can all have a good soldat experience, without having to use weapons that are so frustrating to beat.

I was convinced to make this theory after a long time of playing soldat, and I tried to convince people to use autos, or at least any gun other than barrets and m79s. And quite a few times, I would get replies like "no I suck with the other guns, m79 is the only gun I can get kills with", and "but then they will kill us all with their m79s and barrets"

The guns in soldat rely on who can get rid of each other the fastest, but with guns that are built to kill people faster than the others (m79 and barret), the other guns dont stand a chance. All the other guns rely on "whoever can hit each other with the most shots wins", but the barret and m79 rely on one single shot to win the entire battle.

This particular style of gameplay can near infuriate me when the other guns cannot compete with the m79ers and barreters. This happens to be the same feeling with many other m79 and barret haters, but they disguise it by simply saying that the guns are unfair, and cant follow it up with decent evidence. After thinking about it over and over again, in just about every one of my posts, I have put into words what most m79 and barret haters are realising what they hate most about m79s and barrets.

I keep trying over and over to win this argument so that die hard m79ers and barreters will see to understand that the gun may seem to be unfair to the people they kill with it. And to understand, they need evidence. They dont want to hear "m79 is gay and unfair dont use it". That doesnt convince anyone. Thats like if I point to someone and say he's a murderer. No one believes it. No evidence. So no one suspects them of being a murderer. I fit in as much evidence as I can to persuade these m79ers and barreters that the guns are unfair, and that you should vary your weapons choices.

Now I am totally exposed. Seems thats what you guys that keep arguing with me needed to understand, even though I hinted at it over and over again. So I'd just like to congratulate you guys on what a phenomenal job of pissing me off over and over and over again, without realising what I am aiming at. I thought it would be an easy job. The guys over at soldatmods.tk got it. I tried soldatforums to get a larger audience to see. But most of you guys just couldnt get it. Well done.

[Hiro]

I didn't say he was wrong, I said he was stupid for not reading the topic and basing his opinion on the facts.

You are provoking argument over and over just so that people will give up? That's stupid. You would create separation and hate just to get your end? "see that it may be a bad idea to use the m79/barret over and over" when its obviously not a bad idea?

If a barrettard of m79er shoots you at the same time you shoot him then he is obviously the better player. Its not that hard to combat them if you know what you're doing. It irks me when I get knifed but that doesn't make the knife unfair, it just means he is a damn good shot.

You say you don't want to use guns you don't like using. You say this would make you leave. Yet you don't recognise that people who rely on their superior aim rather than spread-fire don't enjoy using autos. It is easy to kill one-hitters as is demonstrated in this topic so it can't be unfair. You say you just don't like it when they use it all the time. You don't realise that 'all the time' includes (for the barrett) the close up matches in which they get owned because they can't fire fast and bink makes them miss. 'All the time' also refers to long distance when the m79 just can't hit the bugger who keeps dodging and staying out of range as he pummels it with his weapon of choice.

"This particular style of gameplay can near infuriate me when the other guns cannot compete with the m79ers and barreters."
But they can. There are ways stated in this very topic if you would incorporate them into your fighting style then you would see.

"the gun may seem to be unfair to the people they kill with it."
Seem unfair when is not actually unfair and then the person who got killed comes here to complain. As you have.

We do realise what you are trying to say, but it has no grounds for consideration. Your "proof" is messy and can be beaten in a debate. If being proved wrong pisses you off then you need help.

So maybe it is fun to be good with all the weapons, it's still just a killing spree by the good shooters. But yes, well done to us for winning the debate.

[1010011010]

Congratulations, papercut.  You've *****ed and moaned for 17 pages straight, spanning over several months.

And you still don't have one decent, valid point explaining why the M79 or Barret needs to be changed.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

An opinion is never wrong or right. So he can't possibly be stupid for having an opinion.

Actually, an opinion is very often wrong.  If I had the opinion that the sun rotates around the earth, I would be wrong.

Soldat has 100x more information than this thread does. He can't be stupid or wrong for using the strongest source of info, and not it's competitor.

Think about it this way.  If I and another person played the same RPG, and I had a level 50 character and he had a level 10 character, who do you think would be in a better position to discuss the game and its balance?  The act of playing does not give someone authority on a subject.  It's experience that matters.

I know how to take on M79ers, so don't think I'm another one of those random majors that whine because he can't put together the brain cells to counter them; I was just explaining how the M79 can be annoying, even to a decent player.

Yeah, I am sure we all know how to take on m79ers, but you have to admit that the m79/barret certainly puts you in far more "high risk" situations than any other gun does.

No, I can't admit that.  I and many other people have said they actually look forward to M79 filled servers because of all the easy kills.  When you know how to take on an M79er, it's a very low risk situation.  Let's say I can avoid the M79 shell 4 out of 5 times (which is pretty close to the truth, maybe a little low).  80% of the time I'll get a kill with no health lost.  And that's a much better situation then having the drawn out firefights that you prefer.  With those, you're almost guaranteed to die to the second enemy.  With M79s, the likelihood of that is far less.

This particular style of gameplay can near infuriate me when the other guns cannot compete with the m79ers and barreters. This happens to be the same feeling with many other m79 and barret haters, but they disguise it by simply saying that the guns are unfair, and cant follow it up with decent evidence. After thinking about it over and over again, in just about every one of my posts, I have put into words what most m79 and barret haters are realising what they hate most about m79s and barrets.

Different weapons.  Different tactics.  I don't know how many times I'll have to say this before it sinks in.  Do you play CTF like you play DM?  Of course not.  That's a sure way to lose.  Likewise, if you treat the M79 like every other gun, YOU WILL LOSE.  That's nothing new; even you admit it.  And yet you and everyone else who is complaining about this refuse to change your tactics.

If you came here and said "Guys, CTF needs to be changed.  No matter how many people I kill, the team score never increases.  That's unfair to people who like DM." you would find almost the entire forum would disagree with you.  That's the exact same reason people disagree with you now.  "Every time I have an auto and I play like my opponent has an auto, I die."  REALLY??  How about this: "Every time I try to chainsaw someone with a shotgun, I die."  "Well that's stupid.  Don't do it" you say.  And we say the SAME THING to you now.  Of course there are times to use the chainsaw.  Running at a shotgunner is not that time.  And of course there are times to rush at an enemy and spray.  It's not that time when the enemy has an M79.

If you make yourself an easy target, you're going to die.  It's like a new player who stops moving whenever they're firing at someone.  Almost anyone can kill them.  The same is true when someone rushes an M79.  Almost anyone could kill them.  Do you think the newbie sits around and complains "I keep dying.  Could someone change something please?"  Of course not.  He recognizes the problem and does what he can to fix it; that is, learning new strategies.  And yet, for some reason, you experienced players can't do the same thing.

Now I am totally exposed. Seems thats what you guys that keep arguing with me needed to understand, even though I hinted at it over and over again. So I'd just like to congratulate you guys on what a phenomenal job of pissing me off over and over and over again, without realising what I am aiming at. I thought it would be an easy job. The guys over at soldatmods.tk got it. I tried soldatforums to get a larger audience to see. But most of you guys just couldnt get it. Well done.

Maybe that's because the people at soldatmods.tk are looking to change the way Soldat is played, and they'll take any suggestion.  Meanwhile, over at the Soldat forums, the people who actually play and know what's going on recognize the foolishness of your complaints.

[Protoman]

Did I really start a wave of logic-essays just because i typed what i thought?

[papercut]

And you still don't have one decent, valid point explaining why the M79 or Barret needs to be changed.

I never said I wanted it changed.

Date Posted: January 21, 2007, 07:11:51 PM

"the gun may seem to be unfair to the people they kill with it."
Seem unfair when is not actually unfair and then the person who got killed comes here to complain. As you have.

We do realise what you are trying to say, but it has no grounds for consideration. Your "proof" is messy and can be beaten in a debate. If being proved wrong pisses you off then you need help.

So maybe it is fun to be good with all the weapons, it's still just a killing spree by the good shooters. But yes, well done to us for winning the debate.

ugh! I know it's not unfair, but it's too easily looked at as unfair because of so many situations where you feel you tried every option in the fight that was thrown at you, and none of them worked. You get left dead and not knowing what should have been done. Even though kicking the guns out of the game would be an easy way of settling it, it's not the best. I realised that the problem with the guns was its popularity, not so much of its act of being unfair. I described it in so many ways of being unfair as an alias to dissuade m79ers and barreters from using it all the time.

What your confusing me with is your intentions to win the debate. You guys have me baffled. Its like if McDonalds started putting live advertisements out on the street. When McDonalds say their new meals will make you happy and healthy, you go around telling all the people McDonalds is trying to convince that McDonalds is bad and not healthy and not make you happy. You made McDonald's job so much harder, but your not getting any benefit at all. Your just pissing McDonalds off for no reason like you have to me.

[Mr. Domino]

While it's probably about 13 or so pages too late, it's probably best that everyone with an ounce of common sense to stop feeding papercut. There comes a time with a kid refuses or lacks the mental faculties to learn his lessons at normal school and needs to be sent away with a hearty wave on the short bus to that small building where the special kids gather and play. He's not going to learn how to play, and he's never going to stop posting and complaining. The best one can hope for is that a series of self follow-ups will show that he is alone on this issue, no matter how high and mighty he believes his incorrect and baseless opinion to be.

At least we can /mute the whiners in-game. Any time here is wasted on borderline trolling efforts. Let him enjoy his McDonald's argument and on-line whining while smarter players enjoy actually playing the game.

(Just a suggestion. I make no claims to speak for anyone. Just sick of seeing this thread.)

[popsofctown]

The guys over at soldatmods.tk got it. I tried soldatforums to get a larger audience to see. But most of you guys just couldnt get it. Well done.

what are you talking about? did i miss something?

[1010011010]

Maybe that's because the people at soldatmods.tk are looking to change the way Soldat is played, and they'll take any suggestion.  Meanwhile, over at the Soldat forums, the people who actually play and know what's going on recognize the foolishness of your complaints.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

What you're confusing me with is your intentions to win the debate. You guys have me baffled.

I'm going to say this once last time, then I'll leave the topic alone.

Your goal is to make us understand that it's not fun to be killed by M79s, so people shouldn't use it as often.  We understand that.

What you don't realize is that you and your newbie friends do not represent a majority of the Soldat community.  For us, it's MORE enjoyable when the server is filled with M79s, because we are willing to change our tactics, and as a result we get quite a bit more kills than we normally would.

You said that the M79 user has an enjoyment of 9 and you have an enjoyment of 7.  If they stopped using the M79 as often, you could both have an enjoyment of 8 (or something).  Now consider this.  When an M79 user takes advantage of unskilled players and gets a lot of kills, sure, he has fun.  However, when experienced players show the M79 user that the M79 is not a "god weapon", I'm willing to bet that his enjoyment goes WAY down.  And naturally, we're getting more kills, so our enjoyment goes up.

If you and your friends were willing to change your tactics to deal with M79 users, your enjoyment would increase, theirs would decrease, and they'd stop using the weapon as a matter of choice.  You refuse to do that.

Don't complain about a problem you're not willing to fix.  We understand where you're coming from and we tell you, over and over, what you can do to fix it.  Again and again, you ignore us.  If you're not willing to think objectively and reasonably, there's nothing we can do for you.  Go back to playing with bots and leave the experienced Soldat community alone.

[M.rSnow]

Well the M79 does have an insane 'luck' factor to it which can't exactly be balanced 

it can i figured out (by common sense) that the less time a bullet stay in the air the better are the chances that it hits (huhuh!? ain´t i right?). And the reason that it gets even more lucky is that its a 1 hit 1 kill weapon. so if we speed m79 up it will be less lucky but if we do its easier to hit whit it. ("Balance paradox")
Btw:Were is this tread going to ur just figthing.

[ZWZ]

Well the M79 does have an insane 'luck' factor to it which can't exactly be balanced

it can i figured out (by common sense) that the less time a bullet stay in the air the better are the chances that it hits (huhuh!? ain´t i right?). And the reason that it gets even more lucky is that its a 1 hit 1 kill weapon. so if we speed m79 up it will be less lucky but if we do its easier to hit whit it. ("Balance paradox")
Btw:Were is this tread going to ur just figthing.

It would be a lot easier to get hits with it, also the range would be increased. It would make it stronger.

[papercut]

I dont refuse to change my tactics though. I am open to suggestions. Only info Ive been able to get is use long range guns, get the hell away, dodge, and thats it. All of which only increase your chances of surviving about 15%. Which is not nearly enough to help me kill the m79er/barreter. M79ers and Barreters are only vulnerable if they miss the first time, or are AFK. Anywhere from there, I dont have a chance of killing him in time. All I can do is try those corny tactics that were mentioned over and over, which just scratches the surface of surviving. It rarely works. Dont get me wrong, It does work, it just doesnt work enough.

Unlike if I were fighting a guy with an auto, our chances are balanced in means that we both have to dodge, both of us can miss, and we both have to hit each other an (almost) equal amount of times.

The balance with m79/barrets to auto users, is that the auto user has to dodge (a hell of a lot) enough to escape the first shot, so the m79er/barreter can be vulnerable. I have to rely on the user to make himself vulnerable, as opposed to myself forcing him to be vulnerable.

So when I am fighting auto users, it's how many times I can hit him with my bullets opposed to how many times he can hit me with his bullets. The fights are balanced in that way. But when I have to expect a guy to miss with his barret or m79, the only thing I can do is make myself an impossible target for him, which in most situations, what with the lack of cover, or unshapely maps, It simply cannot be done. You dont need all the cover to fight any other guy, because its simply who can hit the other guy the most times. There's too many requirements that need to be attended to to survive against barreters and m79ers, as opposed to the very open ended fights between other gun users. The open-ended fights are a lot more fun than the ultra-specific linear ones.

Date Posted: January 23, 2007, 09:22:29 PM

The guys over at soldatmods.tk got it. I tried soldatforums to get a larger audience to see. But most of you guys just couldnt get it. Well done.

what are you talking about? did i miss something?

I'm not quite getting what you mean by that, but the first sentence in the opening post was "(originally posted at soldatmods.tk)"

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I dont refuse to change my tactics though. I am open to suggestions. Only info Ive been able to get is use long range guns, get the hell away, dodge, and thats it. All of which only increase your chances of surviving about 15%.

You just need to work on your technique.  There isn't going to be a single solution that we can give you that works right away and every time.  I said I can dodge M79s 80% of the time.  You said you can dodge them 15% of the time.  Experience is key here.  Keep trying, and you'll find you'll get better at dodging.  Just like you can't make a pro out of a newbie right away simply by telling him how to play, we can't make you good against M79s just by telling you how to counter them.  You need to practice these techniques until you're good at them.

[papercut]

You said you can dodge them 15% of the time.

ahah, thats not quite what I meant there. 

But does anyone agree with me that fighting an auto user with an auto is a lot less complicated (and overall more enjoyable) than fighting an m79er?

I hate how I am unable to assert my force with an auto on an m79er or barreter. Because I am not allowed to do that until the user himself misses, mak. That gives him the upper hand for the "first contact" moment. It isnt until he errors himself that puts him in danger. Quite a bit of frustrating hierarchy in that.

There is literally nothing I can do other than make myself a hard target. But as people get better with m79ing and barreting, almost no one can be a hard target for them. Of course this doesn't apply to every single m79er and barreter. Which is why I say that it is okay to use the barret or m79 once in a while, but please do not make it your default weapon of choice all the time. It can pose a really frustrating enemy to fight. Thats why I put m79ing and barreting to be in common with things like spawnkilling. Spawn killers are incredibly annoying to kill because they require a more efficient effort to stop than people flying around in the sky. Much like m79s and barrets need so much effort to stop the experienced user.

If every gun required the same strong amount of effort to avoid, then m79's, barrets and things like camping and spawnkilling would hardly be considered stupid and noobish. (Unreal Tournament pulls this off for its unbearably strong firearms).

But since so many m79 balance issues have been neglected, then it was really for the people that use them to listen, rather than the guys who can fix it.

                   

[MofoNofo]

If you find it so hard to dodge a gun that shoots ONE MEASLY BULLET, then that says alot about how good you are.

[ZWZ]

When you can't apply the same tactic in every situation, most people call it variety.

Post a demo of you vs what you consider a good m79er. We can point out exactly what you are doing wrong.

Date Posted: January 24, 2007, 09:04:29 PM

But since so many m79 balance issues have been neglected, then it was really for the people that use them to listen, rather than the guys who can fix it.

You can't fix what's not broken

[Red Neck]

most people hate barreters because they have great aim and are good at hiding in some cases barrets are fine.  so are m79 if you hate the people using them and want to kill them then use the m79 yourself. (for training in dodging m79 fire roach tends to use it alot use him for the dodge training) And besides m79 fires realtivley slow that gives you time to move same goes for the barret when they miss kill them yourself

[ElGato]

To the above posts regarding the Barrett's bink: Its bink is at 90. Okay? 90.

... 90. It has the highest bink out of all the weapons in the game. Bink is not 100% guaranteed to stop the shot no matter how much the bink is. It will make the shot miss a lot of the time, yes, but sometimes the hit will go on target out of luck. It will happen out of luck.

Also, the cursor gets affected by bink(gets big) about a second, so if a Barrett user stay out of your range or doesn't get hit for about 1 second, they have only one chance to hit you, and because of the already high movementacc, they can still miss even if they have a clear shot.

I am well aware of how bink works and what it is set at and even what the odds are SUPPOSED to be, but my experience in game tells me the barret rarely binks or I play against a lot of hackers. When I am shooting people and they miss a barret shot, it is never a bink miss but just a slim bit of luck on my part as it flies by my feet or head.