M79 and Barret Unfair?

[Sytrus]

the barret takes slightly longer to load with each shot than the m79 does in between times of reloading.

Oh Ehm Gee

The most important difference is that you have to fuckin aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG. But a barret is not comparable to the M79 in any way!


This thread is absolutely incorrect because it's having a discussion about two guns who are completely different. Imo.

[Clawbug]

the barret takes slightly longer to load with each shot than the m79 does in between times of reloading.

Oh Ehm Gee

The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG. But a barret is not comparable to the M79 in any way!


This thread is absolutely incorrect because it's having a discussion about two guns who are completely different. Imo.

The discussion is not about which one is not fair, whoch one is easier, which one is more noob or anything. They are not compared.

[Tribersman-FR]

We are talking about the fact they are often overpowered  than other weapon.

for me the barret isn't a problem ... they often missed me.

The problem is when you have 3 sniper at the same place with for each one the perfect position so they don't have to aim much.

And of course impossible to take some of them down with a grenade when they are at distance...


TRUE it's a strategie, after all Sniper isn't a close combat gun

But when all the team use Barret is decome unplayable.


For the M79 it's not really different.

The number can take you down all time and prevent us to aim because you are blow away by the explosion.

They don't shoot directly but aiming isn't more difficult than other gun


It's not impossible to get down a M79 if he miss you ................. 2 TIMES !!!

THE PROBLEM IS THE RELOAD TIME !!

Even the mp5 at a low range can't kill anybody in less than 3 s


For me the solution would be a 4seconds reloading time for M79

[Tai]

We are talking about the fact they are often overpowered than other weapon.

for me the barret isn't a problem ... they often missed me.

The problem is when you have 3 sniper at the same place with for each one the perfect position so they don't have to aim much.

And of course impossible to take some of them down with a grenade when they are at distance...


TRUE it's a strategie, after all Sniper isn't a close combat gun

But when all the team use Barret is decome unplayable.

 The same thing could be said about other weapons, which leaves sprayers. And when you're talking the Barret, that means a lot of bink.

For the M79 it's not really different.

The number can take you down all time and prevent us to aim because you are blow away by the explosion.

They don't shoot directly but aiming isn't more difficult than other gun


It's not impossible to get down a M79 if he miss you ................. 2 TIMES !!!

THE PROBLEM IS THE RELOAD TIME !!

Even the mp5 at a low range can't kill anybody in less than 3 s


For me the solution would be a 4seconds reloading time for M79

You can easily kill an M79er before he shoots you period, let alone once. People keep talking about how the M79er can simply "back away" into cover after missing you. Why can't you?

[Cato269]

It's not impossible to get down a M79 if he miss you ................. 2 TIMES !!!

THE PROBLEM IS THE RELOAD TIME !!

Even the mp5 at a low range can't kill anybody in less than 3 s


For me the solution would be a 4seconds reloading time for M79

Try proning or crouching with the Mp5. i can kill someone in less than 3 seconds from mid range if i need to. it makes it far, FAR more accurate. The reload time is fine for the m79~ It's only usefull in 1 v 1 situations. get your team behind you.

[ZWZ]

Those of you that are suggesting a lot longer reload time for the m79 must have never used it in team games. It's so painfully slow as it is when you are in 2v1 and 3v1 situations, there is no way you can come out on top vs decent players.

[popsofctown]

balance should work for all games

[Tai]

It doesn't work for all games?  Like 1on1? Maybe in shorter maps you should use the deagles, which has range and can keep the m79er away from you.

[Clawbug]

Those of you that are suggesting a lot longer reload time for the m79 must have never used it in team games. It's so painfully slow as it is when you are in 2v1 and 3v1 situations, there is no way you can come out on top vs decent players.

So do not use it then? What about alt. routes, when it will be 95% of times about 1v1 situation  (except in base)? No matter which weapon yyou had there, cant get out of 2v1 or 3v1.

Date Posted: February 08, 2007, 08:43:24 PM

balance should work for all games

There is no working balance for public games and clanwar/gather games. When another community is happy with balance, another one is whining. And then mix the Realistic publics and realistic clanstuff there. Achieving a 100% working balance ain't that easy.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

the barret takes slightly longer to load with each shot than the m79 does in between times of reloading.

The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG.

Then dodge the shot.  Dodge the shot or stay away.  Or just stop playing.  I'm getting tired of n00bs whining about the M79 when they don't DO anything to help the situation.  The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.  Dodging is not hard.  People keep saying it's SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.  SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.  If you know where the shot is going, MOVE OUT OF THE WAY.  "But...but...he's too close when he fires it!"  Then DON'T GET NEAR HIM.  Not hard at all.  How about, the next time you see someone with an M79, instead of unloading your clip while RUSHING STRAIGHT AT HIM, take the time to dodge the shot, then attack.  Do you listen to yourself? "Every time I do the same thing, I die!" Well then try something else.  I dunno, maybe different weapons require different tactics?  Have I said this enough?  Just try, just ONCE, to actually dodge the shell.

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

[Ziem]

the barret takes slightly longer to load with each shot than the m79 does in between times of reloading.

The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG.

Then dodge the shot.  Dodge the shot or stay away.  Or just stop playing.  I'm getting tired of n00bs whining about the M79 when they don't DO anything to help the situation.  The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.  Dodging is not hard.  People keep saying it's SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.  SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.  If you know where the shot is going, MOVE OUT OF THE WAY.  "But...but...he's too close when he fires it!"  Then DON'T GET NEAR HIM.  Not hard at all.  How about, the next time you see someone with an M79, instead of unloading your clip while RUSHING STRAIGHT AT HIM, take the time to dodge the shot, then attack.  Do you listen to yourself? "Every time I do the same thing, I die!" Well then try something else.  I dunno, maybe different weapons require different tactics?  Have I said this enough?  Just try, just ONCE, to actually dodge the shell.

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

I fully agree with you. M79 is annoing only when you got spawnkilled 3rd time in a row or you are playing on 12-more ppl server when almost everyone is using m79
<btw. Ruger, Deagles,MP5 or other Styer is more difficult enemy for me ... >

[Baphomet]

the barret takes slightly longer to load with each shot than the m79 does in between times of reloading.

The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG.

Then dodge the shot.  Dodge the shot or stay away.  Or just stop playing.  I'm getting tired of n00bs whining about the M79 when they don't DO anything to help the situation.  The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.  Dodging is not hard.  People keep saying it's SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.  SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.  If you know where the shot is going, MOVE OUT OF THE WAY.  "But...but...he's too close when he fires it!"  Then DON'T GET NEAR HIM.  Not hard at all.  How about, the next time you see someone with an M79, instead of unloading your clip while RUSHING STRAIGHT AT HIM, take the time to dodge the shot, then attack.  Do you listen to yourself? "Every time I do the same thing, I die!" Well then try something else.  I dunno, maybe different weapons require different tactics?  Have I said this enough?  Just try, just ONCE, to actually dodge the shell.

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

If the m79 is so easy like you say it is, why don't we see at least 1/4 of the whole community (not talking about only the ones that show up in the forums) as total 1337/skilled m79'ers, hm?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

So...reading helps.

Look at my post again.  I was saying the M79 was easy to counter, not that it was easy to use.  All in all, the M79 is a pretty lousy weapon.  One on one, it's decent, assuming you hit.  But what if you miss?  What if there are other enemies?  Then you're screwed.  The reason we don't see more M79ers is that newbies see it, think "hmm...one hit kills" and completely disregard the disadvantages of it, or even the tactical uses.  Generally, I think the learning curve goes like this:

1. "M79 gives me one hit kills!"
2. "The slow reload, single clip, and short range make this a really lousy weapon.  Let's try something else."
3. "Hey, the M79 can be used to boost the FFC and is good for tactical reasons.  I'll keep one as my secondary."

However, not many people get to stage 3.  Most people who play Soldat are new (stage 1) or moderately skilled (stage 2).  That's why we don't see many, as you say, 1337 M79ers.

[Baphomet]

So...reading helps.

Look at my post again.  I was saying the M79 was easy to counter, not that it was easy to use.  All in all, the M79 is a pretty lousy weapon.  One on one, it's decent, assuming you hit.  But what if you miss?  What if there are other enemies?  Then you're screwed.  The reason we don't see more M79ers is that newbies see it, think "hmm...one hit kills" and completely disregard the disadvantages of it, or even the tactical uses.  Generally, I think the learning curve goes like this:

1. "M79 gives me one hit kills!"
2. "The slow reload, single clip, and short range make this a really lousy weapon.  Let's try something else."
3. "Hey, the M79 can be used to boost the FFC and is good for tactical reasons.  I'll keep one as my secondary."

However, not many people get to stage 3.  Most people who play Soldat are new (stage 1) or moderately skilled (stage 2).  That's why we don't see many, as you say, 1337 M79ers.

Yea I usually think reading helps quite a bit, that's why I payed attention to this part:

The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.

now, unless you were trying to say something else, lets say exacly what you just posted after me then the problem is not in reading but rather in communication.

and again:

SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.

I'm really sorry if I'm not getting the picture here, excuse my lack of understanding.

damn...

SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.

-Edit-
That's the whole point when playing with the M79, the shot itself moves slowly that's why people have to predict the target's movements almost at all times, that doesn't seem that easy to me. Unless I'm missing all those awesomely talented people which you tend to call them newbies.
-/Edit-

so basically you're saying that everyone can get used to it's arch, no matter how "noob" they are, either that or I'm deeply stupid for not understanding the irony in here (if there really is).

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

So in my view here's a more "easy-to-understand" translation:

"He whom does not know how to play with the M79 is a Noob.
Soldat Manual by {LAW} Gamer_2k4 v. 27."

Honestly, if there was irony in your post back up there I didn't see it.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Ok, you're viewing my entire post from the perspective of the M79er.  I'm writing from the perspective of someone who is being attacked by the M79.

Yea I usually think reading helps quite a bit, that's why I payed attention to this part:

The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.

now, unless you were trying to say something else, lets say exacly what you just posted after me then the problem is not in reading but rather in communication.

When I said the M79 is the easiest gun to fight, I meant it is the easiest gun to fight AGAINST.  I did not mean it is the easiest gun to use.  Huge difference.

and again:

SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.

I'm really sorry if I'm not getting the picture here, excuse my lack of understanding.

damn...

You left out a crucial part of that quote.  "People keep saying..."  In other words, that is not my opinion, but the opinion of the people who are complaining that the M79 is overpowered.

SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.

-Edit-
That's the whole point when playing with the M79, the shot itself moves slowly that's why people have to predict the target's movements almost at all times, that doesn't seem that easy to me. Unless I'm missing all those awesomely talented people which you tend to call them newbies.
-/Edit-

so basically you're saying that everyone can get used to it's arch, no matter how "noob" they are, either that or I'm deeply stupid for not understanding the irony in here (if there really is).

You really aren't understanding.  I suppose it would have helped for you to read the rest of the thread, so my post would have some context.  But no matter.

The people that complain about the M79 say it is easy to pick up, learn, and use right away.  In other words, it's easy for a new player to learn how the shell moves.  (I do not agree with this).  However, if they are going to use that as their argument, then it follows that they should also be able to learn how the shell moves, especially since they consider themselves experienced.  Now, since the people who are complaining know how the shell is moving, they should be able to get out of the way, especially since the shell moves so slowly.  That was my point.  If it's easy to learn how to use an M79, it should be just as easy to avoid it.

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

So in my view here's a more "easy-to-understand" translation:

"He whom does not know how to play with the M79 is a Noob.
Soldat Manual by {LAW} Gamer_2k4 v. 27."

Honestly, if there was irony in your post back up there I didn't see it.

No irony; you're just approaching the post from the wrong perspective.  If you read my post from the perspective of an M79 user, sure, it may seem like I'm telling people to use the M79 because it's easy.  I'm not.  Whenever I used the term "you", it was in reference to the people who complain that it's impossible to dodge an M79 and that the weapon is overpowered.  I am not talking the the M79 users.

Remember what I said about reading this in the context of the rest of the thread?  Take a look at the quote I was responding to:
"The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG."
Note that comment: "M79 aiming is easy"  There's no question that the M79 has an arc.  Aiming requires that the M79er learn the arc.  Therefore, it's easy to learn the arc.  Since it's easy to learn the arc, it's easy for the target to determine where the shell is going.  Once the target determines where the shell is going, it should be easy to avoid.  That's why I started off by saying "dodge the shot" and why the rest of my post explained why he should be able to do it (according to his own statements and arguments).

Hopefully that clears things up a bit.

[popsofctown]

You know.... we are all smart ppl here right?  u can come to the conclusion that the one-hit kill weps are fine, or that they are over-powered, and still have an IQ over 100 either way.  This discussion is greatly hindered by the fact that everyone is referencing to different soldat experiences.  You think about the barret, and you remember the time you missed because of movement acc, and then got killed by a socom holder who had 1% health left.  I think about the barret, and recall the (many) times that i binked a barret within an inch of his life and still got shot. 

I think this discussion should become more scientific.  Soldat has numbers and statistics.  If someone really cares about proving their side, (for or against) they should take the time to prove their side.

The question, whether the barret is unfair, is really more like a question of whether it wins most of soldat's situations (ex. m79 flying over barret)

How you would prove the barret is unfair:

First you would define the question more precisely.  Does the barret yield better odds of success than all other weapons in ______ _______?   (ex: 5 man deathmatch on arena3)

Second, you would have to find what all the situations are for arena3 and how frequently they occur.  this is impossible.  but if you group the similar ones together, it can be managable.  to see how frequently they occur, you could simply take snapshots of a soldat game on arena3.  a lot of snapshots.  The skill level of the players should be the agreed standard for soldat balance.

3rd
You look at the situations one by one, and determine the odds of their success if they take the best or a near-best course of action.  If an mp5er flies up and sprays the barret, and he lays on the ground to lower his bink, what are the odds his shot misses?  similar principles apply to the mp5ers spray, and, nay, lag's general effect on these things.
To simplify things, you may have to take grenades out of the equation.  it really convolutes things, even though taking them out makes you more innaccurate.

4th
Somewhere or another, you may want to figure in how many spawnkills happen.  that's a really important factor, because very very often there is nothing you can do

5th there are some other parts i probably am missing, but at the end you would average out everything and see if the barret is fair or unfair.

Well, truly i expect everyone to just continue arguing past eachother, and "yuh huh" "nuh uh" eachother, but what i have outlined is the nirvana of weapon balance.  If anyone at least sees the point in this but thinks its not feasible (im not sure that it is, but i think so), please say so to balance out the pure black comments of my usual critics.  ( check my smite score)

[iDante]

Well, truly i expect everyone to just continue arguing past eachother, and "yuh huh" "nuh uh" eachother, but what i have outlined is the nirvana of weapon balance.  If anyone at least sees the point in this but thinks its not feasible (im not sure that it is, but i think so), please say so to balance out the pure black comments of my usual critics.  ( check my smite score)

I agree with you, but I think that as long as there are 1-hit kill weapons some noobs are gonna get shot by someone who is good at them and complain.
I mean the weapon balance will never be perfect, just better.
And your whole schematic is too exact, soldat is not.

[Baphomet]

Ok, you're viewing my entire post from the perspective of the M79er.  I'm writing from the perspective of someone who is being attacked by the M79.

Yea I usually think reading helps quite a bit, that's why I payed attention to this part:

The M79 is the easiest gun to fight in Soldat.  The EASIEST.

now, unless you were trying to say something else, lets say exacly what you just posted after me then the problem is not in reading but rather in communication.

When I said the M79 is the easiest gun to fight, I meant it is the easiest gun to fight AGAINST.  I did not mean it is the easiest gun to use.  Huge difference.

and again:

SO EASY for newbies to learn the arc of the M79, so they become good with it right away.

I'm really sorry if I'm not getting the picture here, excuse my lack of understanding.

damn...

You left out a crucial part of that quote.  "People keep saying..."  In other words, that is not my opinion, but the opinion of the people who are complaining that the M79 is overpowered.

SO WHY CAN'T YOU LEARN THE ARC?  You know EXACTLY how the shell is moving.  You know EXACTLY where it's going.  I don't see what's hard about this.

-Edit-
That's the whole point when playing with the M79, the shot itself moves slowly that's why people have to predict the target's movements almost at all times, that doesn't seem that easy to me. Unless I'm missing all those awesomely talented people which you tend to call them newbies.
-/Edit-

so basically you're saying that everyone can get used to it's arch, no matter how "noob" they are, either that or I'm deeply stupid for not understanding the irony in here (if there really is).

You really aren't understanding.  I suppose it would have helped for you to read the rest of the thread, so my post would have some context.  But no matter.

The people that complain about the M79 say it is easy to pick up, learn, and use right away.  In other words, it's easy for a new player to learn how the shell moves.  (I do not agree with this).  However, if they are going to use that as their argument, then it follows that they should also be able to learn how the shell moves, especially since they consider themselves experienced.  Now, since the people who are complaining know how the shell is moving, they should be able to get out of the way, especially since the shell moves so slowly.  That was my point.  If it's easy to learn how to use an M79, it should be just as easy to avoid it.

M79ers are like Majors to skilled players.  Free kills.  If this isn't the case for you, consider the possibility that your skills are seriously lacking.

So in my view here's a more "easy-to-understand" translation:

"He whom does not know how to play with the M79 is a Noob.
Soldat Manual by {LAW} Gamer_2k4 v. 27."

Honestly, if there was irony in your post back up there I didn't see it.

No irony; you're just approaching the post from the wrong perspective.  If you read my post from the perspective of an M79 user, sure, it may seem like I'm telling people to use the M79 because it's easy.  I'm not.  Whenever I used the term "you", it was in reference to the people who complain that it's impossible to dodge an M79 and that the weapon is overpowered.  I am not talking the the M79 users.

Remember what I said about reading this in the context of the rest of the thread?  Take a look at the quote I was responding to:
"The most important difference is that you have to ****in aim the barret. M79 "aiming" is very easy, a large explosion and BANG."
Note that comment: "M79 aiming is easy"  There's no question that the M79 has an arc.  Aiming requires that the M79er learn the arc.  Therefore, it's easy to learn the arc.  Since it's easy to learn the arc, it's easy for the target to determine where the shell is going.  Once the target determines where the shell is going, it should be easy to avoid.  That's why I started off by saying "dodge the shot" and why the rest of my post explained why he should be able to do it (according to his own statements and arguments).

Hopefully that clears things up a bit.

My bad then, I guess I actually misunderstood your whole point. It's just getting too tiresome to see people complaining/crying about a weapon who they simply refer as "noobish", and thus whenever I see people acting like that I just get eager to respond (harshly).

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I think this discussion should become more scientific.  Soldat has numbers and statistics.  If someone really cares about proving their side, (for or against) they should take the time to prove their side.

Sorry, but this won't work.  Remember Papercut's argument?  "M79 use should be decreased because it's annoying to get killed by."  I'm not saying that's an invalid reason; I'm just using it to prove a point.  People who get frustrated by the instakill won't care how statistically probable it is.  And that's something that will never change. 

[popsofctown]

p'raps