m79 idea

[popsofctown]

Jonwood, u r outlining a plan to nerf it.  Right now it is partially dependent on its point blank kills.  That's why it needs other benefits in exchange, as ive said.

[JonWood007]

Well it needs some nerfing. Anyway, it would only nerf it as short range, so some dude cant kill you at practically point blank range (which is common). Anyway, if you took a few hits, it will kill in one hit. The thing is, at medium range (i'd say after it's been in the air for a quarter of a second or so), it can function normally. I've hit people from somewhat distant ranges with the M79. It would only affect the practically point blank hits, and as I said, if the guy took a few hits, then the guy will be killed by the blast.

[Mr. Domino]

Well it needs some nerfing. Anyway, it would only nerf it as short range, so some dude cant kill you at practically point blank range (which is common).

So... You want a short range weapon to be useless at short range. While we're at it, let's make it so the Barret can't kill after 50 meters, since long range one-hit Barret kills are so common. Obviously, when a weapon is used as intended, its kills become a common sight. This must be stopped!

[Ziem]

m79 is overpowered .. NO! it -seems- to be overpowered when you play on 5v5 or 6v6 server and everyone is using m79. <note : im not a m79 user - i'm rugertard or styer-ak sprayer >

On small maps is very common, but on big maps it sucks ;p

[popsofctown]

Please don't blend me in with jonwood07.  I support none of his nerfing schemes.  I want to make the m79 a mid-range weapon by taking away 1-hit kills at short range and THEN giving it the shot speed and other stats it needs to be a good midrange weapon. 

Because if you took away the barrets one hit kills after 50 meters, but gave it a tenth of a second shot interval and tenth of a second reload, itd still be a deadly weapon, right? 

[JonWood007]

Yeah, that's why I think lowering the damage works. The thing is, youre often on a map where there are TONS of people who use the M79. Here I am chipping away at health and then someone just strolls along and blows a guy away. On small maps it does seem overpowered. I support it being used for medium range, say, over 8-10 meters or so. The thing that bugs me is all the people who use it at practically point blank range.

As for your suggestion, what EXACTLY are you trying to suggest? Why increase the power of a weapon at long range if it already does 1 hit kills? That's kind of pointless dont you think? If you mean increase the explosion radius, forget it, it's fine the way it is. At extremely short range, the M79 needs some nerfing, at medium range, it is fine.

As for the barret, making the weapon pointless after 50 meters makes no sense, im trying to curb no effort short range kills. Long range kills take more skill.

[popsofctown]

JonWood, if you nerf the gun at short range, it can't survive and be a worthwhile gun just with midrange kills.  Its midrange kills are based off of slow shot speed, can be binked, and at many ranges can even be successfully dodged,, not to mention the skill required. 

If you nerf the m79 at close range without boosting other abilities in return it will nerf the whole gun.

That's why i'm not advocating it my idea be the only change to the m79.  If you give it a little more reload, little more shot speed, little less bink (im not exactly sure about the exact numbers of things like that),  then it becomes a midrange gun that doesnt drown out the spas.  Not double shot speed, its not an explosive sniper rifle.  Think along the lines of a slow firing one hit kill deagles, except more binkable, a slower time between shots, and a little bit lower shot speed than the deagles.

No primary in soldat could remain balanced after making one harmful change and not making up for it.

And the barret was just an example i used to prove the point that you can take some ranges away from the gun, power it up at others and still use it.  The barret is fine, it can't be used well at short range mostly because of its delay.

I don't think m79 is overpowered.  I have to fight the people who think it is (Jonwood) and the people who think i think it is (DWZ)

[Ziem]

I don't think m79 isnt overpowered.

That's it.

[JonWood007]

So what if it takes skill? That's the point of my suggestion. Make it where a one hit kill DOES take skill, so you know, people cant just randomly come on to soldat and start smashing people with the M79. It's overpowered. Anyway, making it only take away 3/4 health isnt going to hurt it much, if you take a couple hits, then someone can blast you pointblank and you will die. I just think that 1 hit kills should only reward semi-skilled shots, instead of just running around the map blasting people from 2 meters away. The M79 works well at medium range. Your ideas make it better too, but I still like the idea of increasing damage as the distance increases. My suggestion doesnt nerf it too much, it can still kill in 1 hit, just not when the guy has (near )full health.

[popsofctown]

Most suggestions that say: "I won't nerf it too much" aren't good suggestions.  I have nothing else to say other than what ive said

[papercut]

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=6488.0 

[JonWood007]

You hit it right on the nose, papercut. That's exactly what is wrong with the barret and M79. If you have someone who's at least decent with those weapons, the people with other weapons have hardly any chance. i dont know how many times I tried shooting at people with the AK or something and some guy just shoots me and kills me with next to no effort. That's why these weapons NEED nerfing, especially at short range. At medium/long range, it takes a degree more skill to get shots, and I think they should be rewarded with 1 hit kills.

[excruciator]

You hit it right on the nose, papercut. That's exactly what is wrong with the barret and M79. If you have someone who's at least decent with those weapons, the people with other weapons have hardly any chance. i dont know how many times I tried shooting at people with the AK or something and some guy just shoots me and kills me with next to no effort. That's why these weapons NEED nerfing, especially at short range. At medium/long range, it takes a degree more skill to get shots, and I think they should be rewarded with 1 hit kills.

ok, here is the thing, then you open the window of ranks( whatever is it called), the first place of the second place is usually filled with a sprayer, and not a sniper. why?? because sprayers kills faster then m79ers or barrettards at least, HKer could kill 3 people without loading, each kill takes 8 shot
and with Hk's speed it would take max 3-5 second to kill 3 guys. and how long would a barrett take to kill 3 guys?? ehm... (3 second interval + 0.5 sec shot delay)*2 = 7-8 seconds!!! 2 times as much!!!
In the end a champion sprayer kills dead a elite sniper.

And fact: 70-90% of the kill happens at the range from 10m-20m. its hard enough to find somebody to kill at the range of 30m

[JonWood007]

Actually, if the shot hits, which in the case of many barreters, it almost always does, you're dead before you even open fire with your MP5. Believe me, I am more of a sprayer than a sniper/M79er. You need to get 8-10 shots to connect, they only need one, and if they are good, that 1 shot will connect before you can get all 8=10 of yours to connect. Considering all the shots connect, the barreter will always win. Now if the Barreter misses, he still has a chance, he pulls out his secondary and can do some damage, but what recourse does a sprayer have? If he misses, he's toast.

[papercut]

In soldat, it really doesnt matter who's winning, it's whos having the most fun. (corny, but true).

New guy plays soldat.
Guy with sniper kills him in one shot (obviously)
New guy tries to kill him with auto.
Doesn't work.
Tries again.
Doesn't work.
Gets annoyed.
Tries again.
Doesn't work.
New guy uses sniper.
New guy /w sniper kills Guy /w sniper.
New guy likes his sniper.
Almost Every New guy likes their snipers.

Therfore almost every new soldat player prefers barretts and m79s. It's not quite that it has an overpowered advantage, but it can be absolutely devastating to be killed by someone who uses it all the time. The time it takes for one m79 or barret shot to kill someone, is like a hundred times shorter than any other weapon. (discluding knives, chainsaws, and laws). But the probability of not getting shot is rather high. The issue is that the guns dont really give you the proper invitation that there should be something you can do to lower the probability of being killed like the other weapons. M79s and barrets have an almost "fixed" or "exact" probability that is near impossible to narrow down.

I like popsofctown's idea, because it punishes the ability for people to kill you with an m79 without actually seeing the grenade launch, which bothers the hell out of me sometimes. The barret still suffers from the issue of not being allowed enough time to see the bullet being fired, and you are dead instantly without being given any way to avoid it. I've still yet to see a good solution for this one without kicking it out of the game. But that doesn't stop it from annoying me.

[excruciator]

Actually, if the shot hits, which in the case of many barreters, it almost always does, you're dead before you even open fire with your MP5. Believe me, I am more of a sprayer than a sniper/M79er. You need to get 8-10 shots to connect, they only need one, and if they are good, that 1 shot will connect before you can get all 8=10 of yours to connect. Considering all the shots connect, the barreter will always win. Now if the Barreter misses, he still has a chance, he pulls out his secondary and can do some damage, but what recourse does a sprayer have? If he misses, he's toast.

you forget 2 things:

1. barrett has a fire delay, you can actually fire some bullets before you gets killed
2. barretts has a huge bink, I dont think any sniper, no matter how good are they, cant deal with it

I always die in the hands of sprayers just because barrett binks. ohh, and no, if sprayer misses, he can still win, if sniper misses, he's a goner

[Clawbug]

He is not doomed if he is fast, moves in smart way and stays hidden, and knows how to use secondary weapons and nades.

[popsofctown]

^^ i can attest to wut clawbug says.  i used to be a complete sniper, and i loved the injustice of being able to miss but still kill an auto user with my socom. 

Man, papercut, u put into words the pattern of every new soldat player perfectly.

Some of you use lots of phrases along the lines of "if the barret misses".  I'm not say that yall are forgetting, but remember that a balance should work without relying heavily on human error.  Practicing humans can rapidly reduce that error, leading to a new not-so-balanced balance. 

ex:a mod with a barret with no delay and low bink against rugers that shoot faster and always kill in 2 hits.  If you put noobs on to this balance, it will work well, because they will miss with the sniper frequently and wish they had a ruger for a second chance.  But if these noobs play for about a year, they will begin using only the snipers, because they arent missing so much.

I like popsofctown's idea, because it punishes the ability for people to kill you with an m79 without actually seeing the grenade launch, which bothers the hell out of me sometimes. The barret still suffers from the issue of not being allowed enough time to see the bullet being fired.

I can sort of tie papercuts statement about the m79 back to my main reason i support my idea: m79, the games explosive primary, is not for close range massacres.  Close range shots, unbinkable and undodgable and otherwise unavoidable.  The only gun that should be allowed to slaughter mercilessly at extrememly close range is the gun that has only that range, with limited midrange ability.  yes, the spas-12.  the mainreason that someone would currently favor the spas-12 over m79 is that it can get more kills per full reload.  For ppl who are not at the skill level to be killing lots of other players before they die, this factor is irrelevant.  another cause of noobs using m79's

ppl say hey, in a theoretical 1v1 of spas-12 vs. m79, the spas-12 wouldnt always lose.  Think about how screwed up the way the spas 12 would fight is though: rather than approach the m79 to get maximum damage with the game's shot gun, he would be trying to increase range and bink the m79.

and on the other topic, the barret... the key to balancing the barret is and always will be its delay and its bink, and how those combine to tear up its aim.  I think this gun relies a little to much on user error, which i explained earlier.  im not gonna talk about how u could decrease its dependence on user error though, because this post is long enough, and i dont kno how many ppl would agree that the barrets balance depends on user error.

[M.rSnow]

I tougth this meany times but it aint gonna work i think. I dont have a rezon but i just think.

[papercut]

1. barrett has a fire delay, you can actually fire some bullets before you gets killed

Since when does it take a quarter of a second to kill someone with an mp5? Hitting the guy with two bullets doesnt do enough to save your life.

and i dont kno how many ppl would agree that the barrets balance depends on user error.

I totally agree. Thats a great point. It sucks all together to begin with, but if you get used to it, it can be the redeemer from unreal tournament, or the bfg9000 from doom,  or any other game that has a trademark gun the can kill almost anything.

An interesting point of view I see in this, is that the barret to the rest of the soldat arsenal, is like the few races you get to pick in an RTS game.

If we have any starcraft fans or at least former fans, you can see it this way. There are a total of 3 generic races.

Zerg - Primitive aliens
Terran - Humans
Protoss - Robots

Zerg is an easy race to be. For a short amount of resources, you can load up huge armies of units. You can easily overwhelm your opponents with a vast array of monsters in a short amount of time.

Terran is in the middle. They can produce even stronger guys, in shorter numbers, in a slightly longer amount of time.

Protoss is near impossible to get the ball rolling. Producing even the weakest of units can be really time consuming. However, They pay off as being the strongest race. If you take the time to earn more resources at a faster rate, whilst producing small armies, that will soon evolve into giant ones, you can overwhelm your opponents with a large army of incredibly strong units.

Game over, Protoss wins. Protoss overall has the strongest units the game can provide, and will always win in the long-term games, however they are very vulnerable at their beginning.

Now compare the length of a starcraft game, to a soldat player. When the soldat player decides he wants to use barret, he will probably do terrible at first, do to as pops said... human error. Though if he continues on and on and on, he can kill his opponents at a really high rate. Which... evantually gets boring in the victims case.

This isn't really the perfect example. I hope some of you guys see my point.